Challenging yogic fundamentalism

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

Does anyone ever find that being with groups of yogis can be suffocating? Has anyone ever self-censored an aspect of their lifestyle out of a fear of being tsk tsked by their yogi friends? Has the behaviour of a yogi ever struck you as being dangerously similar to any other form of religious/political fundamentalism?

I can answer yes to all of these questions and over the weekend came across an article that Sadie Nardini has written which really speaks to me.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sadie-nardini/om-scampi-a-top-yogi-come_b_242189.html

I don't agree with all she does or says but I do admire her efforts to make sense of yoga in today's context, and to approach yoga with a critical mind.

Just putting this out there as I'm interested to see what others think.

#2

Thanks for this yonita. That was a refreshing read. The Huffington Post is great.

I definitely feel I have to hide the fact that I drink coffee and wine, eat chocolate and sleep in. More importantly, I don’t aspire to giving any of those things up! Ooops, confessions!

It also reminded me of a time when I was a pregnant vegan who could not eat a thing as I had intense morning sickness. Couldn’t walk up stairs, or eat anything other than ice cubes. After I lost 5kg in a weekend, and had been treated at hospital, I realised what I really wanted was a burger. From the nearest burger joint.

It was the first thing I’d kept down in days. Meat sustained me for the rest of my pregnancy. And gave me quite a bit to think on. I don’t think I’ll ever have it all figured out, and these days it’s a good reminder any time I feel myself starting to judge the life choices of others.

#3

As a vegetarian - but “only” lacto-ovo, not vegan - for almost 40 years, my perspective on this is that there is absolutely NO WAY I am superior to people who eat meat - it is just not for me. At all times beware the guru, in any form, priest, rabbi, minister, “leader”, etc.

And there is nothing I enjoy more after two hours of Vinyasa flow than a cold bottle of beer!

#4

Thanks to all that have posted. And since I started this thread, I think I should add my own list of unyogic secrets.

Sometimes I have a foul mouth.

I sometimes drink wine, and scotch, and in the summer I love a gin and tonic.

I ate chicken breast for dinner last night.

I indulge in chocolate and chilli.

I sometimes wear high heels at work, and like the clip clop sound as I stride down the marble corridors at work.

I am very judgmental sometimes - paedophiles, racists, people that knowingly sell fake pharmaceuticals for personal profit are at the top of my tsk tsk list.

I don’t chant.

My only form of meditation is my ashtanga practise. And hiking in the hills.

I’m in the ‘only does asana’ camp.

I don’t read sanskrit and have fallen asleep trying to get through the Yoga Sutras.

I feel excited and happy and an uncontrollable urge to wiggle when I hear 80s music played full blast.

I think that the Ashtranga Research Institute in Mysore price gouges at $600USD a month. To me, it’s unyogic, or just plain cynical for any yoga HQ to charge this much. They may as well hang a sign on the door reading ‘poor people bugger off’.

In any other context, none of the items I’ve listed above should be behaviours I should feel the need to apologise for. And YET - these are some examples of things I’d sometimes felt the pressure to hide or defend from other yogis or ashtangis. Like a schoolkid wanting to hide her unyogic flaws for acceptance in the yogic club.

Despite being a grown adult, I feel like I need to justify myself with …‘but I love vegetables too’, ‘but I DO feel compassion for others’, ‘but I revel in stillness too’ and a trillion other buts. All a bit pathetic.

I’m with Sadie when she says that this is the sort of thing that will send people rushing back to the gym in droves.

#5

“Hiking in the hills”??? Now that’s going too far! :slight_smile:

#6

High heels, yes! I bought my first pair of heels in YEARS the other day.

I’ve been reading some of Abraham Twerski’s writings recently. Here’s a quote:

'Philosophy can be taught in the classroom or be the topic of scholarly discussions, but when people try to use philosophical concepts in coping with everyday life, watch out. In my experience it is often an escape from dealing with reality.

Some people can effectively fool themselves by espousing noble ideals and principles, although in real life they don’t give any indication of practicing them.

If you believe in charity, then perform charitable acts. If you believe in equal rights, let’s see you accord them to everyone. If you believe in loving your fellow human beings, show me how you manifest that love.

If you want to fool me, go ahead and try. I think I am wise enough not to let myself be fooled. But if you are foolish enough to try and fool yourself, you may also be foolish enough to let yourself be fooled.’

In conclusion, I feel this thread is keeping it real.

#7

I agree with your anti-fundamentalist attitude, but there’s something I don’t understand. Why would anybody give you a hard time about enjoying 80’s music?

#8

Yonita dont you think that by calling the Ashtanga centre in mysore unyogic you may be a little fundamentalist,or judgemental ? Wasnt that the point of her tedious article ? You could go on a sadie retreat in italy for a whole week, it will only cost you a touch over $2000 plus airfare of course.
I dont know the lady in question but I havent come across the kind of fundamentalism she is talking about in my travels.Perhaps with young, keen and confused ashtangi “A” type students They tend to get diasappointed, because nobody can live up to their high standards not even themselves ,They often start the yin style practice to heal their broken bodies no doubt becoming fundamental about this too.not the true teachers.of ashtanga that I have met by the way.I dont know any fully commited Jivamukhti types but are they not political about veganism?
Many are fundamentalist which seems for some reason to be a bad word nowadays,I am sure some of these types do yoga,just as Im sure there are many shallow ,style obsessed, wishy washy uncommited types as well,who have little interest in change or true liberation and just want to reinforce there own fixed opinions that obscure their true nature,some because they want to look young.All are welcome to yoga.
From the information she puts into the public domain with her trade marked system of this new revolutionary technique called errr… yoga,or core centred vinyasa flow something or other ,yoga that has been reinvented and made better (it will take me in to new realms ,boost my practice beyond the limits of my imagination)
I have a feeling that she would say anything to gain some attention and create a little publicity and fame for herself.In another article she tells us she had sex everyday For a month and there is even a picture of her self and presumably her beau ,drooling over one another.
If i had some shame that makes me not want to tell my fellow practitioners something ,then I would think it would be pertinent to look to myself rather than to blame others for my feeling like this.I am vegetarian but would never deny others the right to eat meat ,indeed Im happy that there are aghoras willing to partake of perhaps the highest sacrament of tantra yoga the consumption of human flesh,just isnt my path .
Anyway thats what I think.

peace love and light

#9

I think everybody on both ends of the scales and in between can do with cultivating discernment and the 6 Shat Sampat (spiritual virtues), which are shama (calmness), dama (sense control), uparati (self-withdrawal), titiksha (forbearance), shradda (faith) and samadhana (constant concentration).

#10

I meant Aghoris of course ,He said calmly and lovingly.:slight_smile:

#11

Yonita - what a great name, but not very Chinese sounding. Anyway, Yonita, this is one of the more thought provoking posts that I’ve seen recently, maybe because I consider myself to be the most fundamental of all when it comes to yoga philosophy. In fact, my beef with the other fundamentalist yogis is that they aren’t fundamental enough. Either they don’t really know much about the real philosophy, or they confuse yoga with other schools of thought, like Vedanta or Buddhism. Pandara’s post is a case in point. Strictly speaking, you won’t find most of those terms in the Yoga darsana.

Those other fundamentalists probably view me as somewhat of a heathen. Although I’ve moderated my intake of animal protein and alcohol, I am by no means a vegetarian or a teetotaler.

Yoga philosophy recognizes that yoga is practiced at different levels, mild moderate, and excessive. But we need to recognize that yoga is also practiced on more subtle levels in addition to the physical. Yoga is philosophically based, and it really is a degradation to practice only the physical and reject the philosophical.

There is room for legitimate differences of opinion. There have been different schools of thought for as long as thought has been around. But I have to ask myself, is this about real philosophical differences?

#12

The article does talk about the philosophical reasons why people don’t eat meat. She mentioned karma related to the killing of animals and the principle of non-harming, which are the reasons people usually cite. She mentioned that under-nourishing oneself is self-harming, which I happen to agree with. But she also mentioned that people are going back to the gym in droves because of the attitudes of some studios. So there is definitely a business purpose to her “coming out”. I guess you could say that she has identified her target market.

She failed to mention as a reason for not eating meat, the cultivation of sattva. The concepts of guna theory, sattva, rajas, and tamas are very important in yoga philosophy, but being an anti Sanskrit person, you probably wouldn’t understand that. I think that your antagonism toward people who have chosen to cultivate a more sattvic lifestyle may really say something about you, Yonita.

As I said before, Yoga can be practiced at different levels, mild, moderate, or excessive. We need to recognize where we in the scheme of things. In my own case, because of my physical constitution, the work I do, and the society I live in, I cannot be a vegetarian. But still I believe that vegetarianism is a more sattvic lifestyle. It’s great if you can do it. Maybe if you read the Bhagavad Gita, chapters 14, 15, and 16, you will get some insight into these things.

#13

Thankyou to all for considering and responding to this thread.

cuhl - I didn’t mean to suggest that this has anything to do with my taste in music. The source of the disapproval is directed towards my embracing sensory distraction I think.

charliedharma - Yes, I agree I’m judgmental about the ARI. I’m of the view that yoga should be reasonably accessible to all regardless of class or creed.

Coming from this standpoint, I think that charging USD600 per month for the privilege of practising at the shala with 80 others is terribly steep.

Of course, I’m open to persuasion. For example, if the ARI could explain that a fair portion of the amount goes to charitable projects, I might shrug my shoulders and say fair enough. Or perhaps if those forking out the cash were to receive some individual attention. But I’m yet to be convinced.

I should mention that I’m not of the view that people should be denied from earning an honest living from yoga.

The main point I wanted to make though was not one directed at the pricing policies of the Mysore shala - but that I didn’t feel that an atmosphere of open debate was present amongst ashtangis.

Being heavily influenced by democratic values, I’ve learned to accept that it’s healthy behaviour to question political leaders, our parents, our friends, ourselves. So I guess my point is - why should the Mysore shala be shrouded in a bubble of immunity?

m sure there are many shallow ,style obsessed, wishy washy uncommited types as well,who have little interest in change or true liberation and just want to reinforce there own fixed opinions that obscure their true nature,some because they want to look young.All are welcome to yoga.

You say that all are welcome to yoga but I guess this is my point. Why would people who you’ve deemed as style obsessed, shallow, wishy washy and uncommitted really feel welcome? In all honesty? Wouldn’t they feel incredibly lightweight and insufficient? And what barometer are you using when you’ve judged someone to be shallow?

Many of us (and I admit I am guilty here) pay lip service to all being welcome when in spirit we don’t mean it. It would be far more honest to say, hey you with your prada handbag, if you’re not here to find your true self, then you’re in the wrong place, get back to the gym.

I should emphasise that I don’t mean to start a fight here. I just think that this is an issue that’s been lurking and bubbling for a while and needs to be addressed.

When someone exclusively uses yoga for its profound effects on the human body and not for any other spiritual purpose, this someone is not necessarily shallow. Even people who are concerned with how they look aren’t necessarily shallow. We are all multifaceted. It’s possible to be a centered human being that is consistently loving and kind to others, and NOT at the same time identify as a yogi.

On Sadie Nardini - I don’t actually know anything about Sadie Nardini. For some reason, her site is blocked in China. I’m not her advocate so I can’t defend her in good faith. I’ve used her article because it resonated with me. It voiced some concerns I’ve had for a while.

Asuri - Yes, indeed, my name is not very Chinese sounding. I don’t understand your point.

Yoga philosophy recognizes that yoga is practiced at different levels, mild moderate, and excessive. But we need to recognize that yoga is also practiced on more subtle levels in addition to the physical. Yoga is philosophically based, and it really is a degradation to practice only the physical and reject the philosophical.

For me, the physical and philosophical is intrinsically linked. But that’s beside the point. I’m not calling for all to reject the philosophical. I just think we should do what we’re each ready for, and leave others to their own paths. The challenge is to do this in a whole-hearted non-judgmental way.

To not read Sanskrit doesn’t mean I’m anti-Sanskrit. If this were the case I’d be at war with most of the globe and I wouldn’t want that.

I also don’t think I feel antagonism towards anyone that lives a more sattvic lifestyle. I respect it. I just want to receive the same level of respect that I give.

#14

Does it really matter where we find them or not? Will it make a difference if they come from the bible or the koran or the yoga darshana? The point in my life is that I am less concerned about where it comes from and focus more on the practical application in my life. I have found the 6 shat sampats to be helpful on my own spiritual path and I have little care from which school of thought or book they come and as such i teach them in my yoga classes as well. For me and I speak strictly for myself here, they are practical and I have applied them in my life and they work for me. I trust that is what everybody else will take from my post as well. I rarely speak about things that I haven’t practically applied in my own life.

#15

I think what it boils down to is that yoga is for everyone.

In the same way you don’t have to be a trained chef to cook a meal, it’s up to you whether you decide to paddle in the yoga pool, or jump into the deep end, or indeed wade out to somewhere in the middle.

I love yoga and what it brings to my life. Everybody has their own unique reason for choosing to practice and that’s truly something to celebrate!

#16

Lakurumau - exactly what I’m driving at.

#17

yonita I totally agree with you about the pricing structure at aryi , it was not many years ago in India where I used to practice with a wonderful authorised teacher for $15-00 a week for 5 days practice mysore style .Those day have gone. I Imagine the shala in India saw the prices his western students were charging in the west which were always a lot more than already existing prices in the west and prices got driven up ,the celebs seemed to like ashtanga (A type practice) and with that comes the elitist pricing and a certain following.I have heard people criticise the mysore shala ,but i agree they do seem to be in a bubble of reverence,I am iyengarite as ashtangis perjoratively refer to us and they dont seem to have any problem criticising B K S Iyengar and his students,as i said in my first post this would be the relatively new practioners,the old hands have heard it all before and are more rounded and mature.
It is now cheaper to do a class where I live than in goa india :confused:
My point I guess was calling the mysore prices" unyogic" , I was gently ribbing you ,which i guess in strict terms could be unyogic.One of Indra Devis students relates a story of when ever anyone would speak critically of somebody she would choose to leave the room.
I really do think all are welcome to yoga ,as long as they have got the cash of course,yoga is taught in gyms,which makes it really accesible,I of course can only speak for my own country,There are hundreds of community classes in cornwall, where I live ,some of these are free if you are under 18 or unemployed,I expect in the majority of these you are not challenged particuarly with any philosophy,ethic ,pranayama,meditation,but asked to make a shape like a dog etc.I am not judging this but thats what it is.
When I mean by shallow is perhaps ,somebody that comes to my class and says that they dont want to learn any of the meditation,philosophy,of yoga but are coming to make themselves look younger,have a better body,that would be a definition of shallow,somebody that came to a class and was seeking to have a turning around in the deepest seat of their conciousness,so that they may be liberated from suffering in this very lifetime,i suspect i would say that was deep (none has ever asked the latter,plenty the former} They are welcome to yoga who nows the shallow ones may realise the most ,shallow and deep dont have to be judgemental although when I was younger and shy and introvert I was often “accused” like it was a bad thing, of being"too deep",nowadays i often feel shallow.Its all fine.
I think it is good to know what yoga is ,the schools of thought ,it could be terribly confusing ,to sombody new to yoga.I started with meditation,then tai chi,moved onto yoga,then became a fully fundementalist buddhist,living in Buddhist communities for many years,still teaching yoga ,and now I teach yoga full time ,and although I have buddhist sensibilities ,Im probably not a buddhist anymore ,my main teacher is definitely a yogi,This lead to confusion and a feeling of not being integrated , torn between being buddhist and being a yogi, Hopefully I have let go of trying to label or define myself,but it helps if my practices unify rather than conflict,so it is important for me to find clear teachers with wisdom and insight in what they are actually teaching,it may all lead to the same state but we all do well to find a path that resonates for us,that is clear.
Yoga will transform us, if practiced with integrity for the teachings. I have seen in my judgemental way , people use yoga to reinforce there fixed views and reinforce the dark side, (not pretty) usually to gain power over others, and build empires built on sand.

Lastly two things that BkS Iyengar has said

“Yoga is for everyone but not everyone is for yoga”

and not a direct quote but something like this.

There is the path of bhoga a path that leads to an enjoyment of life through the senses, of the worldly pleasures and the path of yoga that leads to the liberation of the self. Both roads are open it is up to us.

Thankyou all for a stimulating discussion .

HARI OM

#18

Yes, indeed, my name is not very Chinese sounding. I don’t understand your point.

That’s just my way of probing a little, trying to find out if you really are in China, and if you are a Chinese person. Your English reads like a native speaker. Actually I understand people being turned off by certain types of attitudes. But I’m not sure that I agree that yoga is for everyone and that we are supposed to be non-judgmental towards everyone.

Consider Yoga Sutra 1.33

Consciousness is calmed by cultivating friendliness toward the joyful, compassion towards the sorrowful, gladness toward the good, and equanimity towards the not-so-good.

Does this not require the exercise of judgement?

Consider Yoga Sutra 2.40

Through purity [he gains] distance from his own limbs [and also] [the desire for] non-contamination by others. [Feuerstein]

I interpret that as meaning that Yoga is not necessarily all-inclusive. But hey, if people want to practice asanas for whatever reason and not bother themselves with philosophy or self-development, there’s nothing wrong with that.

#19

I have found the 6 shat sampats to be helpful on my own spiritual path and I have little care from which school of thought or book they come and as such i teach them in my yoga classes as well. For me and I speak strictly for myself here, they are practical and I have applied them in my life and they work for me.

That is exactly my point. People have been teaching their own philosophies under the facade of yoga for a very long time. The end result is that there is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about the true philosophical teachings of yoga, which in reality are quite well-defined, if not well understood.

#20

That’s just my way of probing a little, trying to find out if you really are in China, and if you are a Chinese person.

Oh… I see now. I missed your point because I couldn’t see its relevance to the discussion.

You’re suggesting I’m lying about where I live because …?

Not all people that are located in China are Chinese. Not all Chinese people in the modern world use Chinese names exclusively. Not all people that are ethnically Chinese are Chinese nationals. And not all people that use the internet use their actual names.

At no point have I ever claimed that I am a Chinese national.

Asuri, maybe this is a moment to reflect upon your own assumptions. I think they may say something about you.