Hands and arms in Shavasana

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

Hi I’m the next new guy! :rolleyes:

I have a question about the positions of the arms and hands in Shavasana. My problem about it is, that when fully relaxed, my palms won’t point to the sky unless I spread the arms very wide, almost like we know it from Jesus’ most famous pose. The closer I have the arms to my body, the more my hands will roll in and the palms look towards the floor.

Is it any bad when they do? I feel heat ponding under the hand, which is a little distracting, but nothing else, in my perception. Is that ok or should it be avoided? Spreading the arms, but, does not feel actually right, it gives me some uncertain mood I guess, so I’d prefer to have the arms closer.

Or is there a way to get over the hand-rolling-in-thing?

Any input is appreciated.

#2

Quetzal,

This is a common problem for people with a lot of muscle-mass, weightlifters, etc. Unless you have a physical anomaly that prevents you from doing so, it’s very important you lie with your palms facing up.

Find the tipping point and spread your arms out as far as you need. Try pulling your shoulder blades down your back and together before you relax. You want the shoulder to roll open and to lengthen the pectoral muscles. It will change over time as your flexibility increases. But this is where you have to start.

peace,
siva

#3

Hi siva, thanks for the reply.

This is a common problem for people with a lot of muscle-mass, weightlifters, etc.
Would be a nice reason, but I have only a regular muscle-mass and am in regular shape; not done any sports or physical exercise in years (Asanas for about 4 months now, daily sessions; no personal teacher).

Unless you have a physical anomaly that prevents you from doing so,
What anomaly could that be? I have no injury or anything, so I’m unaware of any problem in that sector.

it’s very important you lie with your palms facing up.
I had that feeling… Is it because of the heat? Or why?

Find the tipping point and spread your arms out as far as you need. Try pulling your shoulder blades down your back and together before you relax. You want the shoulder to roll open and to lengthen the pectoral muscles. It will change over time as your flexibility increases. But this is where you have to start.
Ok. Are there any specific Asanas/exercises to increase that certain flexibility?

#4

[quote=Quetzalcoatl;27996]
Ok. Are there any specific Asanas/exercises to increase that certain flexibility?[/quote]

Quetzal,

Yes. All of them. It’s you’re whole body, head-to-toe. Are you working with at teacher? Nothing will happen until you do.

It’s not about heat, although I can imagine you would build heat that way, because you are actually holding your arms, shoulders and spine in that position and they’re not relaxing, or that’s the extent to which they can. Ok? There could possibly be some mental attachments underlying all of this, but that’s why you’re doing yoga too. I hope you’re getting good instruction and using the breath properly.

It’s about allowing the elongation and expansion of muscle away from the sagittal division of the body. That happens in direct response to isometric contractions performed in the preceding asanas. It’s why it’s the most important asana. It’s how the body assimilates all the work you’ve just done. If you have to spread your arms, it’s not improper, incorrect or any kind of compromise. It’s just where you are. This is not something you have to worry about. What is your teacher telling you?

peace,
siva

#5

Hi siva, thanks again for trying; unless someone else comes up with something, I just have to spread the arms, at least sometimes.

To answer your question: I have no teacher overlooking my practice, but had one when I did Yoga a decade ago. I intend to take a 1-on-1 lesson sometime this year, though, to have a professional comment on my stuff.

If I may ask a general question again: You said it would be “very important” to have the palms facing up. If it’s not due to the heat: Why is it?

#6

I’ll precursor this by saying I am not a yoga teacher and Siva has offered some very experienced insight. I am a spiritual teacher and energy worker so I sometimes have insight that may be helpful.

I have a student with a similar problem to yours. His brachioradialis is extremely inflexible and it prevents him from supinating his palms. I’m not sure if that is your problem, but the result is the same. His palms don’t face up in Shavasana either.

This is how we are addressing his problem and why. I have him approach Shavasana in two parts. The first half, I have him lay at whatever distance is necessary to have his palms facing up for the discipline of the practice. As Siva said, it may be resistance and so it is necessary to do it correctly. But ultimately, this is usually uncomfortable for him, and I believe it interferes with the meditative process of integrating the Yoga practice.

So, for the second half, I have him lay in whatever position is comfortable for his hands so that he may attend to the meditative aspect of the practice more fully without the distraction of discomfort.

I also do very specific stretches with him that are not “yoga”. And of course, he works at his yoga practice to increase flexibility. He has had a lot of improvement.

I know at times, during Shavasana for myself, I feel inclined to put my hands into a mudra over certain chakras. Maybe it isn’t even called Shavasana at that point, but my body sometimes falls into spontaneous chi flow and that is where my hands go.

Energetically speaking, and others may certainly differ, pointed down, you are pulling energy from the Earth. Facing upward, you are pulling energy from the Universe. When the palms are facing down, it impedes the flow of universal energy within your energy channels. This is just my opinion based on my experiences with energy and spirit.

#7

To add to the good advice youre getting,you could perhaps prop your arms by folding a blanket so it is the length of arm then rest your arms and hands on a blanket each side , this can support your body , so it can release and you can achieve a comfortable pose.
hope this makes sense

#8

Hi Goddes Tapping, thanks for your reply!

I’ll precursor this by saying I am not a yoga teacher and Siva has offered some very experienced insight. I am a spiritual teacher and energy worker so I sometimes have insight that may be helpful.
Understood, but I don’t care, stuff either makes sense or doesn’t, either works, or doesn’t. Sapere aude (see Wikipedia; I may not link yet) is a motto I live by.

I have a student with a similar problem to yours. His brachioradialis is extremely inflexible and it prevents him from supinating his palms. I’m not sure if that is your problem, but the result is the same. His palms don’t face up in Shavasana either.
It is exactly that muscle where I feel tension in, yes, and thanks for giving me the proper name of it. When I had a look at an image (@Wikipedia as well), something made click in my head and I realized why I have this problem: I am working on the computer at least 5, often many more hours a day, so my forearms are flexed to the opposite direction of what would be good for Shavasana. (In fact, the day I started with Asana-sessions was one where I had an acute mouse-arm…)

On the other hand I wouldn’t know a procedure or activity where the forearm is held as in Shavasana, except when accepting change (cash) or something like that. I even looked at images of corpses and found most of them with palms facing down…

This is how we are addressing his problem and why. I have him approach Shavasana in two parts. The first half, I have him lay at whatever distance is necessary to have his palms facing up for the discipline of the practice. As Siva said, it may be resistance and so it is necessary to do it correctly. But ultimately, this is usually uncomfortable for him, and I believe it interferes with the meditative process of integrating the Yoga practice.

So, for the second half, I have him lay in whatever position is comfortable for his hands so that he may attend to the meditative aspect of the practice more fully without the distraction of discomfort.
This sounds sound on first sight and I’d so far done that variation-thing too, but in my glorious 4 months of practice, nothing has ever changed to my forearm-flexibility, so doubt has risen that it will get me anywhere. Therefore, I’m at a current conclusion to just go relaxation in Shavasana and do something about that flexibility outside the pose:

I also do very specific stretches with him that are not “yoga”.
Can you describe them? I flexed my forearms to the “good” direction all day today, and I did a … Namaste-gesture with turning the fingertips to the ground instead of having them point to the sky. Obviously, I cannot yet say if it makes a difference (will note it here, in case it does).

And of course, he works at his yoga practice to increase flexibility. He has had a lot of improvement.
That’s good to hear, because while I’m having a lot of nigh-unbelievable improvement in any part of my body, this particular spot didn’t change a bit. It’s like it was on day 1. I guess that is because the increase of flexibility has to be applied at the outermost bit of the possible range.

I know at times, during Shavasana for myself, I feel inclined to put my hands into a mudra over certain chakras. Maybe it isn’t even called Shavasana at that point, but my body sometimes falls into spontaneous chi flow and that is where my hands go.

Energetically speaking, and others may certainly differ, pointed down, you are pulling energy from the Earth. Facing upward, you are pulling energy from the Universe. When the palms are facing down, it impedes the flow of universal energy within your energy channels. This is just my opinion based on my experiences with energy and spirit.
And would that be bad? Or is that of the universe better? If so, can you tell me how? I know only the Qi Gong-theory of “that” energy (Mantak Chia-based mostly).

Also, I have no feeling of energy coming in through the palms, but going out. My palms often feel quite energized, I barely know cold hands (while I almost always have cold feet, which sucks, because I do standing postures with bare feet on a wooden floor), and when I only think of my palms, I already have a Kame Hame Ha-feeling building up. It doesn’t drain me anyhow, though, I still feel highly energized when stepping off the mat after a session, with no difference how I place the palms.

However: Thanks again for your very inspiring reply, if you find the time: Please keep em coming. :o)

#9

Hi charliedharma,

thank you too for the suggestion, I’ll try that next time. :slight_smile:

#10

I conferred with Spirit regarding your case. She says no. That you should start Shavasana in supination (palms up). Spend half the time focusing on that aspect. This will help you with discipline, conviction, and not giving up on things that seem impossible. Then the second half focus on the relaxation.

Can you describe them?

This is what I do: I am a massage therapist also, so this is an important piece of the puzzle and one I would definitely recommend to you. Before I do the stretching with him, I do deep tissue massage on his arms through his shoulders. Working out the little knots and then also doing some myofascial work. I would recommend you find someone who can do that because it is impossible to do this for yourself. Especially the myofascial work because it requires two hands.

The stretching is very basic. I simply start supinating and pronating his hand, then continuing to twist up so that I am also doing this with his forearm, eventually all the way up through the shoulder.

And would that be bad? Or is that of the universe better? If so, can you tell me how?

No, it isn’t “bad”. And universal energy isn’t “better” than earth energy. It is just the optimal way to integrate your practice.

Also, I have no feeling of energy coming in through the palms, but going out.

It is customary for healers to have energy going out of their hands. If I were you, I would take it a step further and ask your body what needs healing and let your hands wander to that location. Again, this then becomes not a true shavasana, but in my opinion, it is still helpful to practice. If you don’t want to do that as a part of your practice, I would definitely suggest you do it in a separate meditation. You will probably find your hands want to wander to your chakras.

#11

Hi Goddess Tapping, and thank you again.

I conferred with Spirit regarding your case. She says no. That you should start Shavasana in supination (palms up). Spend half the time focusing on that aspect. This will help you with discipline, conviction, and not giving up on things that seem impossible. Then the second half focus on the relaxation.
Spirit, I assume, isn’t the nick of someone bound to flesh and blood…? And you can forward such specific questions to… subtle entities? :o

However: In a, for my standards, quite extensive session yesterday (~ 2 hrs), I did that downward-Namaste-gesture in the Tadasanas (which I do between any two standing postures). In detail:

I do the Namaste-gesture with the forearms in a straight line and having them parallel to the ground, so the hands are in a 90?-angle in relation to the forearms. Then I roll the hands away from my body and downward, while the forarms remain parallel to the ground. At about 110? the tension starts and I force the hands further down.

Great results, I recommend, when I went into Shavasana, my regular rolling-in-degree dropped from 90? to something like 30?. No kidding, I found the difference actually absurd.

This is what I do: I am a massage therapist also, so this is an important piece of the puzzle and one I would definitely recommend to you. Before I do the stretching with him, I do deep tissue massage on his arms through his shoulders. Working out the little knots and then also doing some myofascial work. I would recommend you find someone who can do that because it is impossible to do this for yourself. Especially the myofascial work because it requires two hands.
Massage… Good idea as well, I guess I won’t go anywhere to get them, but I’ll try softening the muscle via some rubbing before my next Shavasana.

The stretching is very basic. I simply start supinating and pronating his hand, then continuing to twist up so that I am also doing this with his forearm, eventually all the way up through the shoulder.
Ok, I guess that’s pretty much what I had done too. Do you do the stretching to him? Do you grab his hand and then flex it? Or do you have him doing it himself? When I use my left hand to flex the right forearm or the other way, I get to compression right away (bone against bone).

No, it isn’t “bad”. And universal energy isn’t “better” than earth energy. It is just the optimal way to integrate your practice.
Against the risk of being obnoxious: Can you tell my why? As I noted, I am not any much into this energy thing. Actually I notice, that I picked that term up from you, while I would adress it as “heat” or “warmth”, which of course is energy. But I guess you’re talking about some other form, the Qi or Kundalini?

[quote]Also, I have no feeling of energy coming in through the palms, but going out.

It is customary for healers to have energy going out of their hands. If I were you, I would take it a step further and ask your body what needs healing and let your hands wander to that location. Again, this then becomes not a true shavasana, but in my opinion, it is still helpful to practice. If you don’t want to do that as a part of your practice, I would definitely suggest you do it in a separate meditation. You will probably find your hands want to wander to your chakras. [/quote]Well, I do not even meditate at all, unless progressive relaxation can be called meditation. I’m not particularly spiritual. In Shavasana, I concentrate on one bodypart after the other and “relax” them ("" because I also “relax” what isn’t a muscle). Doing that to the whole body already takes easily up to 15-20 minutes and unless I do my session at night times, that’s all I have time for, before my family wants me back. Since we’re talking (<- I could research myself, actually), could you suggest something to start with what you call meditation? Something to integrate into that relaxation I’m doing? A link would be fine as well. Or is putting the hands over a chakra a good start already?

#12

Hi Sunyuting, thanks for your additions:

I am very familiar with Mantak Chia. His qi gong, chi kung, or breath practice is for going from taichi to taiji. It has to do with grounding the body and understanding how to take a punch to the stomach using air pressure. If you practice yoga, I would stick to breathing taught by your instructor. Taiji is the fighting application of Taichi - its a different dynamic of breath for fighting. I also believe some of his exercises are dangerous for the body.
I only know the “microcosmic orbit” from his book “Awaken Healing Energy Through Tao”, where you’re supposed to focus on the energy-points around the body. I know “points” are there (particularly because I misunderstood the position of one of them and later noticed that by feeling that it was higher than I assumed), but I never got the cycle to work as it’s described. Did you?

And now that I think about it, I remember that in his more advanced books, at which I only glanced, he also connects the human body with stuff in space, like specfic stellar objects.

I would listen to the people on this forum if you do not have a yoga teacher, they give good advice. Just my opinion.
I listen to everybody. :slight_smile: But, speaking in Yogic terms and as far as I understand that branch, I am a Jnani. So when I keep asking or appear over-scepitcal, it doesn’t mean I don’t listen.

#13

testing testing

#14

I realize this thread as evolved from it’s origin. However I’ll weigh in on the arms, position, purpose in Savasana even though that may no longer be an issue.

First, it is quite common for students, especially beginning students, sedentary students, or those who live physically out of balance (and by this I mean 10 hours hunched over a keyboard etc.) for the palms to not completely face the ceiling.

For this reason it is helpful to have a teacher who can direct the student but in terms of an adjustment in the pose and in terms of their work in asana practice. It is the very thing a well trained teacher should be doing with a student who’s made a commitment to study. A casual student may not cultivate as deep a relationship, just as a teacher with less or inadequate training may not.

And, while doing these two things - having the pose adjusted and having a directed asana practice - it is also imperative to not get too preoccupied with the details. Exploration, yes. Distraction, no.

#15

Hi InnerAthlete, I’m under the impression something is bothering you. If so, please speak your mind openly, most posters in this thread are new to the board. Are we violating rules?

Most of what you say has already been pointed out in the thread, so I leave that out.

it is also imperative to not get too preoccupied with the details. Exploration, yes. Distraction, no.
What makes you think someone is or might be preoccupied with something? Any detail, as you agree, should be explored. Minor changes can make huge differences.

#16

Hi Sunyuting,

I have given up replying to messages between the lines ages ago. What you say: I mostly agree. You seem to assume I have a different point of view: Which one would that be? I won’t guess. :slight_smile:

#17

@Moderators:

I’m not ignorant to the basic rule “1 subject per thread” that’s valid in some boards, but usually when posts go off-topic and another discussion begins, moderators will click some buttons to extract such posts to a new thread. So I will continue discussing the Qi Gong thing here instead of increasing confusion by starting a new thread in the middle of it. If that’s not ok, please let me know.

…

Hi Sunyuting:

Its all good.
Awesome. :slight_smile:

I forgot to ask you something. If you are trying to spin your energy, do you put your tounge on the roof of your mouth? I do, it is supposed to make a connection.
Well, I did; it’s been a while since I tried wholeheartedly, like my previous Yoga-practice, at least a decade ago.

I also roll my all my points while I circle my energy. Sometimes I will walk a circle and hold out one hand toward the center. Shoot the energy from my palm down to the earth to let it hold up my hand. Switch directions and do the other hand. This comes naturally for me because of years of practice. After doing classes for many years, things just started to evolve. I feel the energy comes from opening the joints by stretching and holding yoga poses. The interesting thing is that now I feel others energy. It helps guide me where to be, and where not to be.
That is all unfamiliar to me. All I had (and have) is a strong feeling coming from the points when I focused on them. The intensity differs from time to time, but it never changed and there was never a flow of energy between any two points, that I was aware of.

All I have are different feelings with the different points. For example the Dan-Tien, it’s like the feeling one has in their belly when looking forward to something. And in the heart-point, it’s related to love, on the top of the head, it’s somewhat divine and large, between the eyes, trancecendence, and so on. I think that’s because there are endocrine glands that discharge hormones (see the image on the page “Endocrine glands” @Wikipedia) or nerve-clusters, that fire their impulses. So according to the theory, I guess I have no effects in the subtle body, only in the physical one.

I know one flow, though, are we all adults…? When I’m having an orgasm and imagine to pull the semen up the spine, there is something going on. I don’t get terribly far, at best close below the level of the heart (but it’s a quite excellent sensation :-D).

This (no flow) might be because all the subtle channels are blocked, I had been living quite a wild life, particularly at that time, sex, drugs, rock 'n roll; I spare you the details, if you’re guessing, you’ll probably be quite right. I settled down when I met my wife - the old story. Now I’m doing Yoga every day, a few weeks ago I gave up meat and fish and now I’m starting to get seriously interested in meditation. Maybe the time is right; Asanas for example: I found them boring ealier (did Kung Fu at the time) and today I love em.

Well.

There are some questions I have regarding these energies and since you’re the only one I ever met who claims to have the cylcle flowing, you might be able to provide some insights: Is the Kundalini-energy of Yoga the same as Qi? I once read, that the orbit would be a further development of the Kundalini-practice, where one wants to have the energy rising from Muladhara Chakra to the top of the head. To just have it rising, so it said, would be dangerous and could cause all sorts of problems, including insanity and death. The orbit would be like a pressure relief valve so the energy cannot pile up. Would you say that’s the case? It makes sense and therefore seems to be a better approach.

But: The Kundalini-theory says, that you’re “there” once the energy has risen to Sahasrara Chakra, so the orbit could as well be a whole different thing, maybe something like the Nadis? Prana equals Qi unequals Kundalini-power? One’s also supposed to start the orbit from the Dan-Tien in the belly, that also differs from the Kundalini-theory.

#18

@ Quetzalcoatl
I am rarely, if ever, bothered by something on the yoga forum here. And those who know me well would laugh at any assertion that if something were bothering me I’d need to be prompted to speak my mind. But thank you for asking. I appreciate your concern.

I contrasted two concepts so that the entire group reading this thread - and the others - may have benefit and clarity.

#19

Hi InnerAthlete:

@ Quetzalcoatl
I am rarely, if ever, bothered by something on the yoga forum here. And those who know me well would laugh at any assertion that if something were bothering me I’d need to be prompted to speak my mind. But thank you for asking. I appreciate your concern.
Most excellent; I’m glad we’re good. :smiley:

#20

I think you just edited this in or I missed it:

I contrasted two concepts so that the entire group reading this thread - and the others - may have benefit and clarity.
What concepts are these?