A Sikh viewpoint of Yoga

Spirituality Religion
#7

Thanks for the beautiful poem.

For most of us, Yoga and Hinduism owe their origin to Vedas and the Vedic period. But while Yoga remained a universal thought that belonged to the whole of humanity; Hinduism became a powerful religion that defines the values, beliefs and the culture of certain people. It is also true that much of the philosophical postulates of Yoga are closer to many principles followed by the Hindus; but the two aren’t the same.

But a few individuals are trrying to prove exactly that and your poem couldn’t have arrived at a better time. Thanks again.

#8

I was born a Sikh dear friend. I went to the Gudwara(sikh temple) with my parents and I never was taught any Yoga and nor did I see any Gyani at the temple ever doing Yoga. The typical day at the temple involved going upstairs in the temple and bowing before the Guru Granth Sahib(a book) and then sitting down and listening to the Gurubani(spoken words of the Guru Granth sahib) which is the language of Gurumakhi(originally it use to Sanskrit) that barely anybody understood. We just stood there on the pretence that what we were hearing was divine words being spoken, even though more than half of the people there had no idea what was being said. Afterwards we would go downstairs for Langar(food) and there people would gossip and socialise, nobody would be talking about god, spirituality or Yoga lol. This was the typical day at the Sikh temple. As I grew older, I began to lose interest in Sikhism and what seemed to be blind rituals. I started talking personally to one of the Gyani’s at the temple to maybe get something deeper, but I got nothing. Other than he was a very nice man and I enjoyed his company. As I grew older I started to realise just how many hypocrites pervaded Sikhism. They would go to the temple, and then in the evening go out drinking, smoking and eating meat. In fact most Sikh men were alcoholics. When I realised that even some so-called Gyani’s were also indulging in this I lost faith in Sikhism. I realised this religion could not give me anything. Never in the 30 years that I have been going to the Gudwara on and off have I been shown how to do Yoga and do meditation or seen anybody do it.

I dropped Sikhism completely around the age of 18-19 and became atheist. Atheism was not all great either, but at least it kept be grounded in facts. I was gradually becoming Hindu from the age of 25. Later I revisited Sikhism by reading English translations of the Guru Granth Sahib online and getting a book of the Japji Sahib and practicing the Moolmantra and reading on the history of Sikhism. I then realised Sikhism was nothing more than a sect of Hinduism. It was a part of the large Bhakti movement in India which saw the establishment of many sects in Hinduism. However, somewhere along the way, the Sikhs consolidated this sect as a religion. I learned that in earlier times even the great Gudwara of Amritsar(Golden temple) had Hindu idols within it.

I recognise there has been a huge corruption in Sikhism that began around the times of the later gurus when a guru would be selected within the family itself. Originally the guruship was passed down from one Guru to the disciple(like in all Hindu tradition). Then at the times of Guru Gobind Singh this entire tradition was stopped and the Guru Granth Sahib was declared as the last and only guru. Since then Sikh people have been worshipping a book. This is incredibly unfortunate. Had the guru tradition not been stopped we would still have great gurus today.

There is no doubt about it though that Guru Nanak was an enlightened master. Even we Hindus recognsie this. I can see why there should be conflict between Hindus and Muslims and and Hindus and Christians, because after all they are foreign religions with opposite doctrines. However, there should be no conflict between a Hindu and Sikh, as we share very much the same spirituality. It is very unfortunate that there are Sikh separatists.

#9

[QUOTE=lostontheway;36607]As an afterthought please let me say that my sharing Sikh thought should not be construed as me promoting Sikhism.
I felt that issue of yoga is being debated as being exclusive to Hinduism. I just want to widen that base of this issue. Yoga is not restricted to Hinduism. Sikhs also practice yoga. And quite obviously Christ was a yogi too because he merged himself with the divine. For what is yoga? is it not conjoining of the self with the divine?[/QUOTE]

The very first mention and description of Yoga is within the Vedas and Upanishads and the Bhagvad Gita, the most holy scripture of Hindus teaches Yoga and you say it is not exclusive to Hinduism? Yes it is definitely true that Sikhism adops Yoga, in fact it adops almost everything from Hinduism(enough to muddy the waters on its status as a separate religion) In Sikhism the goal of life is the same to become liberated from the cycle of birth and date and attain union with the supreme consciousness(paramatma) So yes this is definitely Yoga. The Hindus and Sikhs agree with each other.

However, Christianity does not teach the same at all. In Christianity you are taught that the goal of life is to go to heaven after this life, an actual place like Earth, where there are gardens, rivers and people to serve you. There god sits on a throne in his palace and Jesus sits by his side. This is based on good judgement by god, else you will go to hell, an actual place like Earth, where there is fire and brimstone, volcanos. The Muslims believe the same and in their heaven you get 72,000 virgins and nubile boys to serve mens desires(is heaven a brothel?)

Does this sound the same as what Hinduism and Sikhism teaches? No. They are the absolute opposite. The dharma family of religions and Abrahamic family of religions are as different as chalk and cheese is.

#10

However, Christianity does not teach the same at all. In Christianity you are taught that the

goal of life is to go to heaven after this life, an actual place like Earth, where there are gardens, rivers and people to serve you. There god sits on a throne in his palace and Jesus sits by his side. This is based on good judgement by god, else you will go to hell, an actual place like Earth, where there is fire and brimstone, volcanos. The Muslims believe the same and in their heaven you get 72,000 virgins and nubile boys to serve mens desires(is heaven a brothel?)

Oh Surya, you are now showing how little you know of Christianity. I was raised Catholic. How you described heaven IS NOT the heaven of Christians. This is silliness! What you have stated in your above post has been taken way out of context. It is not meant literally. Oh my…

#11

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;36609]Thanks for the beautiful poem.

For most of us, Yoga and Hinduism owe their origin to Vedas and the Vedic period. But while Yoga remained a universal thought that belonged to the whole of humanity; Hinduism became a powerful religion that defines the values, beliefs and the culture of certain people. It is also true that much of the philosophical postulates of Yoga are closer to many principles followed by the Hindus; but the two aren’t the same.

But a few individuals are trrying to prove exactly that and your poem couldn’t have arrived at a better time. Thanks again.[/QUOTE]

This is veritable nonsense and it shows absolutely you know nothing about the history of Hinduism? What is Hinduism? It was the name given to the common religion being practiced in the Indian subcontinent by the British. It was given because they all shared very similar beliefs

  1. Karma and Reincarnation
  2. Practiced some form of Yoga(Mainly Bhakti)
  3. Accepted the authority of the Vedas
  4. Taught the same Samkhya-Yoga-Vedanta philosophy

This was what was identified as Hinduism by the British. This is what all Hindus know as the Vedic religion. The knowledge religion.

Hinduism never was an organized religion and it has never had any clergy or religious authority. It is the name given to the central Vedic religion that underpins every Indian tradition(Shaktism, Shivaism, Smartism, Vaishnavism).

The Vedas are what define Hinduism. However, more precisely it is the Upanishads and the darsanas. As the Upanishads and the darsanas are what fully develop the Vedic philosophy and practice. The Vedic risis practiced Yoga which in their time was called tapasya and this is how they discovered the truths of dharma.

Hinduism is the oldest religion on this planet. It is hilarious to use these false dichotomies you and other people ignorant of its histroy are using, “Yoga and Hinduism”, “Vedas and Hinduism” Hinduism dates 10,000 years old from what we know about current history. The oldest form of Hinduism we can find is in the Indus valley civilisation.

#12

One who looks upon all with a single eye,
and knows them to be one and the same - he alone is known as a Yogi

I enjoyed this poem very much.
The quoted section reminds me of an experience I had recently.
When I’m going about my day, if I am mindful I can observe my mind making judgements about people around me. Being critical of the greed of rich men or vanity of celebrities. As much as I try these judgements always sneak in to my mind.
The other day I saw absolutely clearly that everyone was exactly the same and having exactly the same experience of birth and death.
That as there are those far more along the path of enlightenment than I similarly there are those more enmeshed in vanities and lusts to distract themselves from their death.
It was so clear, I didn’t just know it I felt it in my heart and I was at peace with all men and all things.
Of course it passed and now I have a memory of it but not the feeling!

#13

@Surya Deva
When I mention teachings of Sikhism, I do not base them upon what common people from Sikh community do( many from the sikh community might be the worst of the humans, but thats the case with every community) . I base them upon the teachings enshrined in Shri Guru Grantha Sahib. So if you met meat-eaters and alcoholics, well they were not following the Sikh teachings, simple.

The language of Guru Grantha Sahib is not Gurmukhi. Gurmukhi is the script in which Gurbani has been written. The language of Guru Grantha Sahib is predominantly Punjabi of those times but vocabulary and phraseology of many other languages is also found. All the ancient texts are not readily understandable today as languages change over the ages. But if one understands Punjabi well enough Gurbani is not that difficult to understand. And there is no dearth of books either.

It is unfortunate that you could not find anything worthwhile in the Gurdwara you went to. One would think it would have been easy to access some library and read some good books and get knowledge first hand.

This is not the place for me to argue whether Sikhism is a sect of Hinduism or a separate religion.

Finally, a Yogi is the one who tries to slay the five demons:
Kama(lust), Krodha (anger), Lobh (greed), Moh(attachment), Ahamkara(ego)

I advise you to be patient, loving and humble. Just as water does not flow towards the high ground so the divine grace of God does not reach the heart which is arrogant.

If not the Sikh Gurus I hope you heed Saint Kabir’s verses, who most scholars agree was a Hindu bhakta:

Kabeer, let yourself be a pebble on the path;
abandon your egotistical pride.
Such a humble slave shall meet the Lord God. || 146 ||

Kabeer, what good would it be, to be a pebble?
It would only hurt the traveller on the path.
Your slave, O Lord, is like the dust of the earth. || 147 ||

Kabeer, what then, if one could become dust?
It is blown up by the wind, and sticks to the body.
The humble servant of the Lord should be like water, which cleans everything. || 148 ||

Kabeer, what then, if one could become water? It becomes cold, then hot.
The humble servant of the Lord should be just like the Lord. || 149 ||

But my friend, everything starts from humility.

Peace

#14

Namaste Lostontheway,

I also think it is unfair to generalize a religion by the actions of the common people, a religion should be defined by its teachings. However, this is exactly what Sikh people are guilty of when they generalize the religion of Hinduism based on the actions of poor, illiterate villagers and their superstitions. The West are also guilty of generalizing Hinduism based on this. However, if we Hindus do the same, then it is bad. Wah!

You will find that the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib and the teachings of the Vedas are the same. However, why is it then that I have branched out from Sikhism? The main reason is that Sikhism is purely bhakti and devotional and lacks a scientific component. In order to understand the science of Yoga and meditation I had to go back to the source religion - Hinduism. There is no other religion on this planet which has written so much on Yoga and meditation. Nowhere else will you find highly developed sciences dealing with chakras, prana, karma, koshas, lokas. Reading just the Yogasutras is worth more than the entire library of Abrahamic scriptures.

There is no other religion other than Hinduism which give you such a detailed and comprehensive picture of reality. All other religions pale to insignificance before it.

#15

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;36615]However, Christianity does not teach the same at all. In Christianity you are taught that the

Oh Surya, you are now showing how little you know of Christianity. I was raised Catholic. How you described heaven IS NOT the heaven of Christians. This is silliness! What you have stated in your above post has been taken way out of context. It is not meant literally. Oh my…[/QUOTE]

Yes it is, I have been told by actual Christians this is it. You are perhaps an “isolated example” :wink:

#16

Heaven is a destination place of the faithful. (faith, there’s that word again!) It is not a physical place but a spiritual place. It is outside the boundaries of human understanding. What the biblical authors tried to do was help us to understand in human terms what heaven is as it is a place of pure joy and freedom from suffering. I believe much of how heaven and hell is viewed is taken from Dante’s Inferno and Michaelangelo’s The Last Judgement.

This is all beside the point. The poem is beautiful and shows the universality of Yoga.

#17

Heaven is a physical place in Christian belief that you go to in your body. Hence all the hoo-haa about judgement day and the resurrection of our body.

This is not at all identical with the Hindu belief that all heavens and hells are just different levels of the mental planes and exist nowhere else but within the mind itself. They are projections.

#18

And you know this how? Because some christians told you?

There are christians out there who could better address this. I left catholicism 35 years ago. But my memory of sunday school classes was that the soul goes to heaven. Your spirit. Your body is merely a house for the soul.

#19

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36613]
However, Christianity does not teach the same at all. In Christianity you are taught that the goal of life is to go to heaven after this life, an actual place like Earth, where there are gardens, rivers and people to serve you. There god sits on a throne in his palace and Jesus sits by his side. This is based on good judgement by god, else you will go to hell, an actual place like Earth, where there is fire and brimstone, volcanos. The Muslims believe the same and in their heaven you get 72,000 virgins and nubile boys to serve mens desires(is heaven a brothel?)[/QUOTE]

I raised Catholic up til the age of 18. That meant Catholic gradeschool, middle school, and highschool with weekly attendance at Church. Never once was I ever taught that heaven and hell are actual places like Earth. And I can say with clarity that I never once was told that there will be servants for me.

#20

Thank you WakingUp! It means I’m not crazy! LOL!

#21

It is a widely recognised fact that Christianity teaches the doctrine of resurrection. I have already covered this in the first page of the thread, "Calm and rational discussion...." According to this, you and your body make up who you are. When you are connected back to your body at judgement day and pass judgement, you enter heaven in your body. So heaven is an actual physical place.

I will change my views if you can show me otherwise. Until then I am going to stick to what I already know.

Edit to add: Repost from other thread:

Namaste,
The belief in judgement day, and the resurrection of the body from the grave is a major belief of the Abrahamic religions.

Catholicism
Belief in the last judgment (sometime said universal judgment) is held firmly inside Roman Catholicism. Immediately upon death each soul undergoes the particular judgment, and depending upon the state of the person's soul, goes to heaven, purgatory, or hell. The last judgement will occur after the resurrection of the dead and the reuniting of a person's soul with own physical body[3].
The Catholic Church teaches that at the time of the last judgment Christ will come in his glory, and all the angels with him, and in his presence the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare, and each person who has ever lived will be judged with perfect justice. Those already in heaven will remain in heaven; those already in hell will remain in hell; and those in purgatory will be released into heaven.[/quote]

The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that there are two judgments: the first, or "Particular" Judgment, is that experienced by each individual at the time of his or her death, at which time God will decide where[4] the soul is to spend the time until the Second Coming of Christ (see Hades in Christianity). This judgment is generally believed to occur on the fortieth day after death. The second, "General" or "Final" Judgment will occur after the Second Coming.

Protestantism

Lutheranism

Lutherans do not believe in any sort of earthly millennial kingdom of Christ either before or after his second coming on the last day.[5] On the last day,[6] all the dead will be resurrected.[7] Their souls will then be reunited with the same bodies they had before dying.[8] The bodies will then be changed, those of the wicked to a state of everlasting shame and torment,[9] those of the righteous to an everlasting state of celestial glory.[10] After the resurrection of all the dead,[11] and the change of those still living,[12] all nations shall be gathered before Christ,[13] and he will separate the righteous from the wicked.[14] Christ will publicly judge[15] all people by the testimony of their faith,[16] the good works[17] of the righteous in evidence of their faith,[18] and the evil works of the wicked in evidence of their unbelief.[19] He will judge in righteousness[20] in the presence of all and men and angels,[21] and his final judgement will be just damnation to everlasting punishment for the wicked and a gracious gift of life everlasting to the righteous.[22]

Islam
In Islam, Yawm al-Qiyāmah "the Day of Resurrection" (Arabic: يوم القيامة‎) or Yawm ad-Din "the Day of Judgment" (Arabic: يوم الدين‎) is God's final assessment of humanity. al-Qiyāmah is also the name of the 75th sura of the Qur'an.
The sequence of events according to the most common understanding is the annihilation of all creatures, resurrection of the body, and the judgment of all sentient creatures. The time of the hour is not known, however there are Major[1] and Minor Signs[2] which, according to Islam, are to occur near the time of Qiyamah (Doomsday). Final judgment forms one of the main themes of the Qur'an. Many Qur'anic verses, especially the earliest ones, are dominated by the idea of the nearing Day of Resurrection.[3][4]

#22

It is meant in the spiritual sense, not the physical. Can you please take a pause and listen to what you are saying Surya? It is impossible to discuss with you. I honestly wish it wasn’t, but it is. Sad!

#23

I shall try and bring the thread back to track and another quote from fifth Guru, Guru Arjan Dev ji. This composition also sheds light on what according to Sikh Gurus is true Yoga. One can see that the ideas expressed are purely concerning the inner mind-state and constant communion with God, which is the aim of true Yoga.

GAUREE, FIFTH MEHL:
I came to the Guru, to learn the Way of Yoga.
The True Guru has revealed it to me through the Shabad(Word). || 1 || Pause ||
He ( the Lord) is contained in the nine continents of the world, and within this body; each and every moment, I humbly bow to Him.
I have made the Guru’s Teachings my ear-rings, and I have enshrined the One Formless Lord within my being. || 1 ||

I have brought the five disciples together, and they are now under the control of the one mind.
When the ten hermits become obedient to the Lord, then I became an immaculate Yogi. || 2 ||
I have burnt my doubt, and this for me is smearing my body with the ashes.
My path is to see the One and Only Lord.
I have made that intuitive peace my food; the Lord Master has written this pre-ordained destiny upon my forehead. || 3 ||
In that place where there is no fear, I have assumed my Yogic posture.
The unstruck melody of His Bani is my horn.
I have made contemplation upon the essential reality my Yogic staff.
The Love of the Name in my mind is my Yogic lifestyle. || 4 ||
By great good fortune, such a Yogi is met, who cuts away the bonds of Maya.
Nanak serves and adores this wondrous person, and kisses his feet. || 5 || 11 || 132 ||
( page 208 )

#24

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;36639]It is meant in the spiritual sense, not the physical. Can you please take a pause and listen to what you are saying Surya? It is impossible to discuss with you. I honestly wish it wasn’t, but it is. Sad![/QUOTE]

Namaste, in order not to derail the OP’s thread, I will make this the last post on this issue. You are an “isolated example” Mainsteam Christians and Christian scholarship do not agree with your new-age views. I have already proven this with Asuri attempt to show reincarnation in the bible and then posting what an official Christian body had to say on the matter. You take a lot of liberty in twisting what the bible says into what you want it to mean.

#25

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

#26

This is confusing me for some time now: what does it mean to be unblemished/pure. Of clear intention? Selfless? Detached from own needs?
Maybe its poetic term, like in the Bible language where there is love/hate attitude (either you love something or hate it, and if you love one thing you hate opposite). Is it unblemished/filth also poetic language to divide things between pure/desirable and filthy?

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;36603]What is a blemish? What is the filth of the world? How do you become cleansed, and what do you have to give up to achieve that (is Newtonian theory applicable in that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction)?[/QUOTE]