Beyond duality

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

Hello uncle Hubert :slight_smile:

Can?t tell about anything else but we definitely have some duty towards those who brought us into this world, our parents, so leaving them, in other words escaping from this duty is definitely contradicting with the Siddhanta of Advaita of Shankara so obviously this is not what I was referring to. :wink:

Now as per Advaita we shouldn?t nullify an attachment or a belief with another attachment or belief, but rather strike a balance. Leaving everything & living as an ascetic is also an attachment to asceticism. So asceticism should be balanced with indulgence.

So even reality should be balanced with unreality. What is the reality here ? the reality is material world that we can see. What is this unreality ? this unreality is the spiritual reality that is not seen but can only be realized at a higher level of consciousness.

We are asked to love our neighbours, & we claim to do so, but in reality do we love our neighbours as much we love our parents, brothers, sisters etc. ? No, coz in dualistic level of consciousness we think our relatives are more important than our neighbours, we are different from them. It is not easy to realize that we are ONE & are from the SAME SOURCE. Advaita seeks dissolution of this individuality, now when we identify ourselves as different individual we think ourselves above others, our desires increases we than go to harm others to fulfill our desires & this is exactly why we are seeing so much sufferings today. Although this philosophy can be traced back to Upanishads, mainly Brihad Aranyaka it was propagated at the time when people from various Indian philosophies (including Buddhism & Jainism) were having a problem leaving in harmony with each other. The problem was My-Path-is-Greater-Than-Yours. Shankara tried to establish the fact that nobody is different from the other. Everybody is part of the same truth/Brahman/God. This is what is meant by ?Tat Tvam Asi?. This concept is usually explained by the example of pot & the space. In a room when we place a pot, the space inside the pot does not become different from the space outside it. The pot is the material world.

How to dissolve this individuality or ego ? First we will have to control our desires & attachment. How to control them ? if we believe that what we are desiring for may or may not be as important since it is just a creation of our mind, an illusion, pleasing material senses & not the absolute truth we may not yearn for it. Hence it is important to realize this as an illusory dualistic level of consciousness & we should seek for a higher nondualistic level, if we don?t than we can never get rid of the individuality & everything in this dualistic level is just a material truth. In this lower level of consciousness a (material) desire that we think is the truth can be moderated by desiring for its opposite, love can be controlled by equally hating, so it is neither love nor hate. Thus the truth is ?Neti Neti?, neither this nor that.

Wouldn?t it be wonderful if we realize we all are one & no one is greater ? there would be no ill feelings for anyone, no hatred, no wars etc. But not all of us seek to realize this truth in Kali Yuga & so it becomes even more difficult for those who want to realize this truth. Hence we need Yoga :slight_smile:

#22

[QUOTE=Hubert;11304]

[COLOR=black]Now, when someone says, well, I do not like this situation I’m in, but I’ll deal with it the best way I am able, because this is my karma, that I salute. But why should we accept our karma, instead of facing it as a hero, like Buddha did ? Simply, because we are not Gautama Siddharta’s. It was his karma, and not ours. He was ready, we are not. He had the strenght to become victorious, where we had surely failed.

We realize we are not Buddhas. We are little human beings. We have our karma, our fate. We must face this fate, to pay debts, to learn to be better, greater … and some day we will become like Buddha. But we are very far from that, yet. And the reason for the world’s existence is exactly this: to enable us to learn. Yes, the sensorial world is an illusion from a higher point of view, but sadly, we are not on the level to have this view. For us this world is the only, and we are only able to work on this level, and while being alive. There is no way to act on us, to learn, on higher planes, between death and birth, only here, between birth and death.

[/QUOTE]
have you read the book sidhartha? In the book once enlightenment was found by budha he then realized that in his search for life he missed out on living life. (I am not sure sidhartha is an accurate book of buhdas journey but I think it has many valid points) Buhda also has many great quotes, “it is better to travel well then to arriive” You want to arrive at enlightenment and you do not travel well in realizing you have the power of creation, you created a child.
You think there are no enlightened beings who have families, who found god while in the world and living a “normal” life? That my friend may be the biggest illusion that you have spoken of so far. There are more enlightened people in this world then you realize my friend. The mind thinks there is a way to find god, if you give up all you have, fast for two weeks, 40 days, etc…
you want to see enlightenment, buhda says if you see the miracle in a single flower your whole view would change. So go sit next to a flower for a whole weekend and meditate on it. Do your family duties and when you have free time “be still” In all your free time “be still” jesus said to be still buhda said the same thing. Buhda also says “he is able who thinks he is able” if you do not believe that you are able to find what you seek while being around your family then guess what, you will not be able to. If you think you are able to then according to buhda you will be able to.

hubert my friend. You think too much. How do I know because I think too much as well.
Buhda says to be active in the world and to meditate at night. The problem we humans have is the ego says we can learn more, follow someone elses path such as buhda, achieve enlightenment through actions like giving up everything we have,etc… and what happens if you followed his path, gave up everything you had, fasted for a month, and still did not find god? many people have done that and still not got enlightenment, why, because their mind was in the way. YOUR MIND is what has obsticles to God, especially cause you have a high IQ, what did you score on an IQ tests, 140+? How is your meditation going? How much time are you spending devoted to a meditation practice?

I wish you the best my friend
Neil

#23

Well, obviously you react to the provoking part of my post. It was meant to be provoking. PatR says, we have relatives, and so on, they are our karma. So had Siddharta. He had a wife (in fact a second wife), Yashodhara, and a son, Rauli. He left them. Now, this is where I say Buddha and I are different. I have a wife, and a girl. I do not leave them. When you say, it is not necessary to leave them, you belittle Buddha. He must have been a fool to do that, right ? Or if he was right, than I am the one who is the fool. Or, perhaps, as I tried to put it, we are both right, on our corresponding levels, he on a higher level, me, on a lower level.

Jesus said: who does not leave his father and mother, his brothers and sisters, his wife and children, and follows me, is not worthy of the kingdom of God. As a matter of fact, he also said those who do not hate their parents, wives, children, as I do, cannot come into the Kingdom of God.

Does this hurt some feelings ?

We know the love what comes from blood, but we do not know the love what comes from Spirit, or even if we do, blood-love is still there.
A person who is like Buddha, or Jesus, would be called antisocial, anarchist today, and rightly so. If we just take the radical part, the words, the acts, than they are insensitive. But if we see this from a higher view … saying: humans are spiritual beings, who are destined to a higher life than what they have today, if they want to learn their freedom, their independence, and their true, eternal identity, than they must shake off the limits of flesh, blood-ties, carnal attachments. The Upanishads say beautifully: the man takes pleasure in the womb of her wife, it has been the same womb what has given him birth in a former life.

If you realize that the person next to you who is your wife, has been your father in a former life, than you see that person with different eyes. You can still love her, make love to her, but you will treat her as yourself, a being, whom is not just a woman, a wife, a looks, attachments, but YOUR BROTHER. I deliberatly say brother and not sister, to underline that eternal individuality is genderless. (In hungarian, brother and sister are denoted by the same word) So what Buddha did, or Jesus taught, has to be understood this way: you have to hate your parents, husbands, wives, children because in these qualities, they are less, and by these qualities they shut off the real vision, the sight of their eternal self. So hate goes not against the person, but against your limited view of that person, and this is just right. When you love your wife or mother more than God, what is just a way to express that you love the blood-tie, the carnal passion, the immediatley palpable, more than you long for the spirit, for the eternal, than you fail. Please do not take this black and white ! What I say, is that first we must realize that we are just like this, in bondage. Than, we must try to find the way to the spirit, to the eternal self. Not on the expense of our former relations, as Buddha did, or Jesus taught (and also, did, remember when he is visited by his brothers and mother, while teaching, and he answers: let them wait, here are my brothers and sisters), but adding some more, slowly. And we must not think this will be easy. Sooner or later, the difference between the spiritually oriented person, and the one to whom he is tied by bonds of flesh, who happens to advance slower, or not at all, this difference will generate tension. One will feel more close to strangers, who happen to understand one, and one’s aspirations better. And that person will become our parent, or children in a next life, exactly because these things are governed by spiritual rules, and not blood-ties.

The target of my fomer post was the material samsara conception, and I showed how it is not true for everyday life, even if it is true from a higher point of view. I also showed than if taken out of context it is not just an useless truth, but a harmful one.

About thinking … I do not think too much. I think too less. You mistake dead thinking, analytic thinking with alive thinking. Alive thinking is what goes hand in hand with feeling, will, through inspiration, imagination, intuition. What I write just seems dead thinking because it might not awake these qualities in your soul, yet. They seem strange to you. They seem overwhelming, or based on chance, or on my own fantasies. But I have to say: the view that the world is simple, and easily understandable, knowable, is a false one. The world is huge, wonderful, alive, and still, it can be grasped even by our limited mind. Not experienced, known, because that is what happens through enlightment. But the laws what govern the world can be meantally comprehended, even if this comprehension is just an image. Such an image can still help one act more consciously, according to these laws, just as a climber can make good use of a correct map. Svadhaya, study is not just self study of the soul. We, and the world are one. Know yourself, and you will know the world, know the world and you will know yourself. This is what I have come to realize, and the world view I am taught gives the right answers and the strenght to carry on.

I say these not to belittle anyone, to make anyone change his/her mind or be right, just to add, complement, and to share what I know and believe.

You are right that meditation, concentration are higher stages, but I am just not there yet, first need to create the place in my life. This does not mean what I talk here is useless, or wrong. Abstract thinking, something not based on sensorial input is a form of meditation. Perhaps lesser … but I believe in strong foundations.

#24

[quote=Prascina;11309]
During our satsang there was a discussion on love and Moksha.A friend of mine said then that she would choose love:) for she enjoyed the sweetness and agony of love rather than the nothingness.[/quote]

The agony of love, that is what I talk about in the niyama thread.

Our goal is not nothingness. Our goal is godliness. God seems to be nothingness only because we want Him to be something, somehow. So while He is not nothingness, we can’t perceive Him with any sense we posess, be that the third eye, except our sense of existence. Identify your real Self, and you’ll find God. Neti, Neti !

I guess PatR will like this explanation. Very advaita one. :slight_smile:

#25

To complement my former post, I’d add that passing through nothingness is a necessary phase of the journey. Pratyahara is all about this trial.

#26

In the book sidhartha, budha was synical of life. He looked down on people for doing what they did, when he journeyed he wondered what the point was of the things .they did. Once he found “it” he then realized “it is better to travel well then to arrive.” I belittle buhda? I did not say he was wrong for doing what he did,Pantanjalia said if you control the mind you can control the breath, if you control the breath you can control the mind. does that mean he belittle every other path Jesus, buhda, pantanjalia all had different approaches so out of them who is on a higher level, who is the fool?

I do not believe everything I read that jesus supposedly said. WHo wrote what jesus said, where they somehow protecting themselves, did they hear wrong, or maybe it was written accurately. I just believe in the central them of most all spiritual paths, love

Do you truly know of this love hubert? If you know of one love would you not know of one love? isnt there only one type of love? Love?

[quote=Hubert;11320] but we do not know the love what comes from Spirit, or even if we do, blood-love is still there.
A person who is like Buddha, or Jesus, would be called antisocial, anarchist today, and rightly so. If we just take the radical part, the words, the acts, than they are insensitive. But if we see this from a higher view … saying: humans are spiritual beings, who are destined to a higher life than what they have today, if they want to learn their freedom, their independence, and their true, eternal identity, than they must shake off the limits of flesh, blood-ties, carnal attachments. The Upanishads say beautifully: the man takes pleasure in the womb of her wife, it has been the same womb what has given him birth in a former life.[/quote]
Must you shake off your attachments physically or mentally? you can be in the world but understand you are not made of the world. Are you too attached to unatachment and therefore not shaken off that attachment. If God wants you to be blessed with a farm and then a storm comes and wipes it away and you say, “god you suck” maybe that is too attached but if you say “thanks for the farm while it lasterd, time to move on” maybe that is unatached?

Idont know of the word samsara, I dont know of many of these words I speak mostly english and a little spanish

[quote=Hubert;11320] conception, and I showed how it is not true for everyday life, even if it is true from a higher point of view. I also showed than if taken out of context it is not just an useless truth, but a harmful one.
About thinking … I do not think too much. I think too less. You mistake dead thinking, analytic thinking with alive thinking.[/quote]
Sorry I dont have time to think about the different types of thinking it makes my head spin :slight_smile:

Laws, what are laws? One law is above all, the unknown variable that cannot ever be explained, only experienced. So when it all comes down to it there is no laws

[quote=Hubert;11320] I say these not to belittle anyone, to make anyone change his/her mind or be right, just to add, complement, and to share what I know and believe.
You are right that meditation, concentration are higher stages, but I am just not there yet, first need to create the place in my life. This does not mean what I talk here is useless, or wrong. Abstract thinking, something not based on sensorial input is a form of meditation. Perhaps lesser … but I believe in strong foundations.[/quote]
Hubert this I can tell you from my personal experience. I know too much theory, I know too much about chakras, I have read too many books, I have had too many discussions, I know too many postures, I know too many chants, too many kriyas, I know too much THEORY. The time I hated my dad so much that I gave up and sat down in my room and was still for a while and somehow my ill feelings went away and I was left with compassion, and to this day it remains my most profound spiritual experience, the day that happened was before all this “yoga” stuff and that sense of compassion for him has remained. Hubert I think your scared my friend to sit by yourself, to be by yourself. Cause when your reading, talking, or folllowing someone elses path a part of you feels with them you dont feel alone. But yet another part of you feels alone Be alone with your breath, study that, it is the most powerful thing you have. If I offended you, maybe you needed it, maybe you did not deserve it, I dont know, but the ego is the only thing that can get offended right, me and you could use some deflation in our ego, along some others on here :wink: Loose your fear hubert, be one with the breath and forget all your theory, it may be what is holding you back. As I say this to you I am saying it to myself as well, were in the same boat. Existence is beyond duality, you are part of existence, you are beyond duality, the illusion is we dont see that yet.

I dont know how to change colors,that is the reason for :slight_smile:

The best to you my brother
Crazy neil :slight_smile:

#27

It seems that what I say does not pass through. But I’ll continue, not that I am right, but because you deserve to understand me.

Let’s juts leave Buddha alone. He came into the picture because his revelation was that of an illusory world, material samsara as PatR named it. This view is one I was questioning from an earthly point of view. I am not saying Buddha is wrong, but the superficial understanding and usage of his wisdom can be and is harmful. This danger I wanted to attract some attention to.

Not believeing the New Covenant to be accurate does not mean it is not so. It just shows that you are not intimately accustomed to it. This is no fault, there was a time when I thought it is total bullcrap, I passed through the phase you are in, when I could relate to some of the things there, but I was shocked by others, and arrived to the present state when I find in it so great a wisdom and not by mental understanding, but by inspiration and intuition. I am not saying it is true in the ordinary sense of the words, or free from some producing errors, but that’s irrelevant, if put next to the hidden truths.
Fact is that most westerners live in a culture impregnated by a superficial understanding of the Covenants, (and this fault can be attributed to the Church), this is why they discard it too easily, and you are not that free of this prejudicial thinking that you might like to believe. But this is not the point here.

On love. Yes there are many kinds of love. Love of self, love of an image, love of an illusion. To love is to have a target for this love. You must agree that the love of the father of the child, is instinctive, just as the love of a man for a woman. Only in time this love develops to something greater, when you really come to know the person as a free, independent, self contained being. I do not want to discard blood-relationships, because they are there for a reason. Without having them, there would be nothing to stand against the most cruel egoism. We have learnt to love this way, now it is time to learn to love because spiritual kinship, and the latter sometims is against the former.

I did not say anywhere to leave your family, or your belongings. Yes, I did it say in a former post togheter with an “I dare you”, but it was just in order to show how useless such an approach is. The whole point was to show that the teaching about the illusory nature of the material world, even it is true from a higher point of view, it is harmful and leads to escapism, laziness in thought and action, and we need the latter to fulfill our karma. It was your Jesus quote: be in the world, not of the world. I understand you perfectly. You are the one who must try to understand me.

If a little thinking makes your head spin, what will happen when you have to find your way through the complexity, alienness and luring nature of the higher lokas ? How will you know what is real and what is not, what is the creation of your mind, and what is real, and how will you surpass these higher “illusions” ?

Oh, my dear friend, you say there are no laws. This is a great mistake. Yes, all is the manifestation of God, and by the one law you mean love. Perhaps it is so. But to state that is just as uselss as to state that a hidrogen atom changed through fusion into a helium one, on Alpha Centauri. What, and how does it concern me ? Here, I am standing on earth. The law of gravity rules my physical body. The laws of life govern my physical heart, lungs, digestion, the laws of perception govern my sight, hearing, tasting, touching, and so on, the laws of the mind govern my thoughts, emotions, impulses, the law of karma rules my whole life. I need to attend to things, I have a job, clients, promises to keep, a family, all kind of connections to the world. I am one with this world. If someone says this world is illusory, it pisses me off. Not because I am attached because most of the time I realize that, but because it comes from people who are not less attached, but they do not even realize this. And this is just the physical plane. If one is not able to master this plane, how can one dream of mastering higher ones ?

Hubert this I can tell you from my personal experience. I know too much theory, I know too much about chakras, I have read too many books, I have had too many discussions, I know too many postures, I know too many chants, too many kriyas, I know too much THEORY.

Perhaps you read the wrong books, and the wrong impressions of them.

Hubert I think your scared my friend to sit by yourself, to be by yourself. Cause when your reading, talking, or folllowing someone elses path a part of you feels with them you dont feel alone. But yet another part of you feels alone Be alone with your breath, study that, it is the most powerful thing you have. If I offended you, maybe you needed it, maybe you did not deserve it, I dont know, but the ego is the only thing that can get offended right, me and you could use some deflation in our ego, along some others on here :wink: Loose your fear hubert, be one with the breath and forget all your theory, it may be what is holding you back. As I say this to you I am saying it to myself as well, were in the same boat. Existence is beyond duality, you are part of existence, you are beyond duality, the illusion is we dont see that yet.

I am not scared to be with myself, I am with myself since I’ve turned 22.
Now, at 36 , I can say, I am following my own path. Yes, my very own. This is what the path is about, to know your karma, and to follow it. Not to be lost in theories, not to run from duties, and escape in “the mind is the enemy, the world is illusory, my Self, is the only reality” egoistic attitude. Most people who go on this path, instead of finding God, they find their own glorified little self, or some succeed in getting out of themselves, end enjoy this freedom so much that they shut off any real suprasensorial experience as illusions, especially if they did not make the preparations to receive them in the right way. Some find a relation with their guardian angle, and take that as God, than say that other peopel’s God’s are idols … a huge array of errors is possible here.

The eastern wisdom disregards totally the existence of forces contrary of human spiritual development. Ignorance they say. I came to know that this is not so. It is not just ignorance. There is evil.(this evil might be necessary, and not really evil from a higher point of view, but it is nontheless detrimental to us, and so we can state that it is evil to us) And when you meditate, or start any spiritual practice, these entities are threatened and they gather their strenght to bring you down.
How do you imagine to rise to God, if not through other planes? What is the plane one must pass immediatly after death ? It is the same plane what is passed firts through initiation by meditation.
The stories about hell might seem laughabale to a materialist mind, but we really must pass Bhuvar loka (astral plane) and that plane is filled with the astral remains of the deceased (and not just that, but beings whom home that plaen is, not always good willed) This plane is full of sensual residues, strong desires, and if one is not strong through self control, yama and niyama, right attitude, discernment, than this plane becomes a trap, a huge temptation. Jesus was tempted, Buddha was tempted, everyone is tempted when passing through this plane. I just want to make sure I am ready.
I am not dwelling on this any further. Sometimes our karma makes us blind to things, and with a good purpose, it would be wrong from my part to forcefully invade your thinking. Please feel free to neglect what I write, or to find the faults in it.

#28

so you say you have been by yourself since 22, when you are alone, by yourself, sitting upright with your eyes closed, then you are alone. Until then… You speak of things you do not know of. all these planes you speak of, have you experienced them, do you know them, or are you just passing along information that you have gathered from sources outside yourself?

I have had many dreams where I saw things, some people would call them visions, I have had that in meditation too. Sometimes I have seen the future. I do not analyze and say I was seeing this world or that world, this plane or that plane. They were experiences that I had in a moment of time. What did they mean, where did they come from, dont know and dont care. I dont care of all the spiritual worlds and planes I want one thing. To feel alive, to love, to care about this life and this moment. If I do that the rest of the “planes” will take care of themselves.

So perhaps I do read the wrong book all knowing hubert, please tell me the right ones and tell me how you know they are right. :wink:

When you sit by yourself and just breath,and then peace comes to you. You know this peace because you feel it in this world, this plane, this moment. You carry it with you.

Hubert you have too much information in my not so humble opinion. How are you going to go to God as a little child? You see if God asks me what I know what would I say? I saw this star and it light up the world, I saw people who looked .like me. The birds were cool, the lakes too. what did it all mean I am not so sure, I just want to try and enjoy it as much as I can.

Sometimes in life we need to dumb down so we can wise up. Go sit by yourelf and just breath, untill then dont tell me what you think you know :slight_smile: Hubert I am not trying to push your buttons, I am just trying to mess with your ego that is so serious and so smart. You are pushing my buttons though, the best way to term it would be tickle buttons as I am laughting when I write this and laughing when I read yours. I am sure that if one day we meet we would be good friends, your a nice guy hubert

take care booty head
Neil

#29

Good post. You are right, but I think I am right too. Is it not possible that we both are right ? :slight_smile:

#30

[QUOTE=Hubert;11352]Good post. You are right, but I think I am right too. Is it not possible that we both are right ? :)[/QUOTE]
am I right, I dont know I will just take your word for it;) I dont know if we are both right and wrong, that is just a value judgement. But what I do know is that we both are.
later brother
Neil

#31

I’d add, that momentarily and for two years, I am in hell. The perspective from here is a bit grim, I admit.

#32

Dear Hubert, do you belive in liberation/moksha/nirvana ?

Hope you are still interested in this thread :smiley:

#33

That is like asking if I believe in God. The answer is yes, mentally I believe in Him, but than again, if I think of how I am and how many times I forget this, than it is often better not to think of Him. Just to be able to advance. (God is not male, I know, but in my tradition He is the Father, so I use the word, Him, especially that I have a male physical body, and a corresponding female etheric (pranamaya) body - and the thought of a male God produces better vibes in the latter -of course God, the Absolute, Nirvana, you name it, is genderless, this is just a way of addressing Him)

I see liberation, moksha, nirvana as resting in the bosom of God, “seeing” God, expereiencing God. I like to beleive that He is far greater than me, and I am only able to know Him through Christ. Christs stands for The Cosmic Self, but this latter name I use only to not hurt the feelings of those people who imagine Christ as Jesus, a physical man, and feel aversion imagining that they supposedly can only reach God through a physical man. In a a way, this latter statement is still true, because we can only reach God through a physical man, and that is ourselves. Without a physical body, how can you live, learn, experience, feel as a being ? Yes, on higher stages of meditation the tie to the physical body is lost, suspended, nevertheless, for everyone who is born, the physical body is the vehicle of freedom. We use it as we like it, according to our will.
I do not like to use Self, (with a capital S) for the Cosmic Self, first because this name is dated before the mistery of Golgotha, and leaving this name unchanged, and not uniting it with the deeds of this Self made manifest through Jesus, we miss the realization of something important, second because that capital S is not enough in my view to show the difference between man’s higher Self, and the Cosmic Self. The latter is the Self of everything, and not just the higher Self of a man. The higher Self of man, what is still his, and not The Cosmic Self, Is called Spirit Self by my teacher, but that is still not The Cosmic Self, or as I like to name it, Christ. The higher self of man is a spiritualized physical man, in the form of spiritualized will. (I have mentioned that the physical vehicle is ruled by our will - not entirely, but in it’s parts what make our freedom of action possible, through the senses, limbs and the sexual organs)
Until I still have a will of my own, I am an entity, free and exactly this freedom makes the love of The Cosmic Self possible, and I am different from the Cosmic Self, and different from God. When this difference is eliminated, something happens what I think cannot be comprehended or analized, just speculated upon. I’d like to think that not a dissolution happens, a passing into non-existence, or nothingness, but a fulfillment of man;'s ultimate destiny, becoming one with God Himself, becoming God himself, whatever that means.
Yes, all the bodies, mind, emotion, bliss, and love disappear or lose their necessity and something marvelous and unimaginable happens.
But is it really important for us what is that like, us, people of today ? There is still a long journey ahead of us.
I see initiation, enlightment having phases. A man who achieves the deed not to be born again, is still far from being one with God. Enlightment might only mean the clairvoyance gained by spiritual practice, and this is how I like to use this term.

PS. I will try to express this using the terminology of koshas later, I need to study the subject further. It is hard to make justice to all traditions, but I have a strong beleif that everyone is right, just we often lack the capacity to comprehed, how exactly that is possible.

PS2: By knowing through Christ I mean realizing that The Cosmic Self is not really us, until we let it be so. The little egoistic self is always in the way, and without realizing that The Cosmic Self is really everyone, there is a danger of the little self usurping the position, deluding us, and making us believe that he, the little self is actually identical with the Cosmic Self, of what it is only a mirror, and the cleaner the mirror is, the greater the temptation to identify it so. This mirror image is a good example to show how defects of the mirror, (mind) create a distorted reflection of The Cosmic Self, and thus creating the monsters what we are. The most despicable human being is still an image of God, just a very distorted one.

#34

[QUOTE=Hubert;11392] PS2: By knowing through Christ I mean realizing that The Cosmic Self is not really us, until we let it be so. The little egoistic self is always in the way, and without realizing that The Cosmic Self is really everyone, there is a danger of the little self usurping the position, deluding us, and making us believe that he, the little self is actually identical with the Cosmic Self, of what it is only a mirror, and the cleaner the mirror is, the greater the temptation to identify it so. This mirror image is a good example to show how defects of the mirror, (mind) create a distorted reflection of The Cosmic Self, and thus creating the monsters what we are. The most despicable human being is still an image of God, just a very distorted one.[/QUOTE]

The ‘We/I’ is in reality the unchangeble truth that is Cosmic self/Christ Consciousness/Brahman & it is always there & it is not something to be realised.

In a nutshell, when we are body conscious we are ‘fooled’ to believe that we are separate from the Brahman. If we are not fooled we would always believe that the little egoistic self is the only truth & would never realise the Brahman (become Christ Conscious). What has to be realised that we (as Brahman) are fooling ourselves by believeing that the egoistic self is the truth. In other words this ‘Samsara’ created by the egoistic self is just the illusion/maya/matrix of the Brahman.

My opinion :wink:

enjoy this song.
YouTube - Imagination - Just an Illusion

#35

It is there and it should be realized, known, found, lived, expereinced, made conscious, because we do not do that because we are fooled, just as you expressed.
It is useless to say it can’t be realized because it is there, when clearly, for the great majority of people this is not so, we are the fools you describe. At least, I can state that for myself.
I do not know who I am. If I knew, I’d not be discussing things here.

#36

Adi Sankara on his path had to experience the worldly life to prove his points in a debate. HE moved into the body of a king to experience the life of a Grihasta.
Again…
Sage Vyasa advised his son Suka to follow the 4 phases of life, but Suka was reluctant as he believed that it was binding. So Vyasa sends Suka to Janaka ,the ruling king of Mithila, a videha… the liberated one. Suka with doubt goes to meet the king. Janaka tells Suka …he whose ego haunts and obstacle the mind is always bound even if he moves away from the material world to live alone in a forest… whereas a Jnani whose is peaceful, calm and constant beyond mind and ego is never bound… is liberated… irrespective of the environment and circumstances.
Once a disciple asked a sage… why this creation of maya? The teacher replied… was there a creation at all? And that is state beyond duality.