Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

The views of many modern intellectuals on Hinduism:

Louis Jacolliot (1837-1890), who worked in French India as a government official and was at one time President of the Court in Chandranagar, translated numerous Vedic hymns, the Manusmriti, and the Tamil work, Kural His masterpiece, La Bible dans l’Inde, stirred a storm of controversy. He praised the Vedas in his Sons of God, and said,:

"The Hindu revelation, which proclaims the slow and gradual formation of worlds, is of all revelations the only one whose ideas are in complete harmony with modern science. "

Jacolliot feels India has given to the West much more than she is credited with when he says:

" Besides the discoverers of geometry and algebra, the constructors of human speech, the parents of philosophy, the primal expounders of religion, the adepts in psychological and physical science, how even the greatest of our biological and theologians seem dwarfed! Name of us any modern discovery, and we venture to say that Indian history need not long be searched before the prototype will be found on record. Here we are with the transit of science half accomplished, and all our Vedic ideas in process of readjustment to the theories of force correlation, natural selection, atomic polarity and evolution. And here, to mock our conceit, our apprehension, and our despair, we may read what Manu said, perhaps 10,000 years before the birth of Christ:

Sir John Woodroffe (1865-1936) the well known scholar, Advocate-General of Bengal and sometime Legal Member of the Government of India. He served with competence for eighteen years and in 1915 officiated as Chief Justice. He has said:

Ages before Lamarck and Darwin it was held in India that man has passed through 84 lakhs (8,400,000) of birth as plants, animals, as an “inferior species of man” and then as the ancestor of the developed type existing to-day. The theory was not, like modern doctrine of evolution, based wholly on observation and a scientific enquiry into fact but was a rather (as some other matters) an act of brilliant intuition in which observation may also have had some part."

Count Maurice Maeterlinck (1862-1949) was a Belgian writer of poetry, a wide variety of essays. He won the 1911 Nobel Prize for literature. In his book Mountain Paths, says:

Mr. Thorton, in his book History of British India, states: " Hindus are indisputably entitled to rank among the most ancient of existing nations, as well as among those most early and most rapidly civilized…ere yet the Pyramids looked down upon the Valley of the Nile… when Greece and Italy, these cradles of modern civilization, housed only the tenants of the wilderness, India was the seat of wealth and grandeur…"

Dick Teresi author and coauthor of several books about science and technology, including The God Particle. He is cofounder of Omni magazine and has written for Discover, The New York Times Magazine, and The Atlantic Monthly.

"The big bang is the biggest-budget universe ever, with mind-boggling numbers to dazzle us – a technique pioneered by fifth-century A.D. Indian cosmologists, the first to estimate the age of the earth at more than 4 billion years.

The late scientist, Carl Sagan, in his book, Cosmos asserts that the Dance of Nataraja (Tandava) signifies the cycle of evolution and destruction of the cosmic universe (Big Bang Theory).

“The Hindu religion is the only one of the world’s great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long. Longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scales still.”

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Advanced_Concepts.htm

One test of a true religion is whether it matches with science and Hinduism passes that test with flying colours.

While Abrahamic religions tell us the world is flat, Hinduism has known since Vedic times itself it was a sphere orbiting the sun:

Aitareya Brahmana (3.44) declares:

“The Sun does never set nor rise. When people think the Sun is setting (it is not so). For after having arrived at the end of the day it makes itself produce two opposite effects, making night to what is below and day to what is on the other side…Having reached the end of the night, it makes itself produce two opposite effects, making day to what is below and night to what is on the other side. In fact, the Sun never sets….”

The ancient Hindu astronomy was so advanced that none of their calculations differ from the calculations by modern astronomers:

Marquis Pierre Simon de Laplace ( 1749-1827) French mathematician, philosopher, and astronomer, a contemporary of Napoleon. Laplace is best known for his nebular hypothesis of the origin of the solar system. wrote:

“Nevertheless the ancient reputation of the Indians does not permit us to doubt that they have always cultivated astronomy, and the remarkable exactness of the mean motions which they assign to the Sun and the Moon necessarily required very ancient observation.”

India has left a universal legacy determining for instance the dates of solstices, as noted by 18th century French astronomer Jean-Sylvain Baily, (1736–93) 18th century French astronomer and politician. His works on astronomy and on the history of science (notably the Essai sur la th?orie des satellites de Jupiter) were distinguished both for scientific interest and literary elegance and earned him membership in the French Academy, the Academy of Sciences, and the Academy of Inscriptions. Bailly said:

“The movement of stars which was calculated by Hindus 4,500 years ago, does not differ even by a minute from the tables which we are using today.” And he concludes: “The Hindu systems of astronomy are much more ancient than those of the Egyptians - even the Jews derived from the Hindus their knowledge.”

While Abrahamic religions tell us that god created the world in 7 days. He created the earth, then men, then animals, then the sun and the moon. Hindusim tells us we have evolved from chemical processes through 8,400,000 different organsims from plants, to animals, to humans.

The first germ of life was developed by water and heat.’ (Manusmriti - Book I, sloka 8,9)

’ Water ascends towards the sky in vapors; from the sun it descends in rain, from the rains are born the plants, and from the plants, animals.’ (Manusmriti - Book III, sloka 76)

In addition Hindusim tells us not only have we evolved and are still evolving, but the entire cosmos itself is evolving. Like modern science, Hinduism agrees the universe began in a big bang, with a sudden expansion and is still expanding, but will eventually contract back to the point of singularity. It describes the universe to be vast, consisting of innumerable solar systems(bramandas) and planets. (Compare this to to the pathetic flat and young earth theories that Christians still argue for today)

Why are all these great intellectuals and scientists praising Hinduism? The answer is clear Hindusim is a religion for scientists and intellectuals.

It is absolutely clear then to see that Hinduism makes Abrahamic religions look primitive and stupid.

please check out this link as well

Great Minds on INDIA from SALIL GEWALI

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35506]One test of a true religion is whether it matches with science and Hinduism passes that test with flying colours.
[/QUOTE]

Please explain to me how the Bhagavad Gita lines up with acience

Much of Judeo/Christian teaching is not to be taken literally. One must reflect on them in order to find the truth within. I find it ironic that, in an age where many people from Christian backgrounds have come to accept many of the teachings coming from India as compatible with their own beliefs, that the main proponent of the “most tolerant religion” is still engaging in the same old “my religion is better than yours” crap. True spiritual leaders all recognize the value of unity and finding common ground.

There is no common ground between Hinduism and Abrahmic religions. Hinduism is vastly superior.

It is absolutely clear then to see that Hinduism makes Abrahamic religions look primitive and stupid.

As long as you continue to engage in this type of ignorant, arrogant, and offensive remark, no one is going to listen to anything you have to say. I could, in fact, demonstrate common ground with quotations from the Bible, but I’m not going to waste my time with a pig-headed ass like you.

dear sd,
im also hindu which teaches tolerance to all religions
god is one sages call him variously- is the taching of vedas
how could u call any religion stupid implying its follower are also stupid
seeing your posts i thought u are spritual and quite advanced at that.
i once saw it written somewhere- one must have knowledge like underwear but musn’t flaunt it.
not done sd.

rk

www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html Nice article in “Nature” about science and belief in God.

I agree with Asuri whole heartedly that if one continues to engage in arrogant offensive remarks, no one will listen. The forums are about sharing listening and learning from each other. That’s why I joined! No one likes to be called stupid. No one likes their religious beliefs called stupid or new age fluff. Prasad so simply and eloquently stated what we have been trying to show Surya. Hinduism teaches tolerance. Tolerance has not been shown to people on this forum when they have a differing opinion than SD. They have been constantly put down and shot down as they "couldn’t win the debate. This is not yoga. And it’s certainly not Hinduism. SD, you are very intelligent and we can learn much from you. We don’t have to be Hindu to learn and appreciate.

To Techne…thanks for trying to get an honest discussion going. Appreciated!

[QUOTE=Asuri;35600]As long as you continue to engage in this type of ignorant, arrogant, and offensive remark, no one is going to listen to anything you have to say. I could, in fact, demonstrate common ground with quotations from the Bible, but I’m not going to waste my time with a pig-headed ass like you.[/QUOTE]

I believe the ultimate motive of the poster is to provoke this reaction from even the most tolerant individuals like yourself. I have noticed a pattern where a well-meaning member wishing to be a part of intellectual debate is lured from the path of discussion into the weedy brush of argument and trapped there. Then, another unsuspecting and well-meaning member is ensnared and led down the same path.

My roommate at art school had a sign on his door “Warning: Pragmatist inside. Enter at your own risk”. At least he was honest.

[QUOTE=prasad;35601]dear sd,
im also hindu which teaches tolerance to all religions
god is one sages call him variously- is the taching of vedas
how could u call any religion stupid implying its follower are also stupid
seeing your posts i thought u are spritual and quite advanced at that.
i once saw it written somewhere- one must have knowledge like underwear but musn’t flaunt it.
not done sd.

rk[/QUOTE]

I am grateful for your post, and look forward to hearing more about Hinduism from your perspective. Namaste

Namaste, Surya Deva.

This forum lacks the space to seriously do a comparative analysis.
Hinduism is just more suitable for today’s mind greatly influenced by the rational approach of science.

Indeed as it has been pointed out, for todays scientific thought nothing is less alien than that of the resurrection of the body. And to make things more complicated, according to Paul: if Christ did no rise, in vane it is our faith. We must underline this, without belief in the ressurction of Christ, there is no christian religion and faith. This is the basis of christianiy, and if one does not believe in this, one can’t rightfully be called a christian, simple as that.

Great is this chasm, but there is a bridge to it. I can’t say more but everyone has the chance to build it for oneself. Just be honest with yourselves (don’t neglect others), and be what you are.

Hindusim needs the light and penetrating power of scientific thought, and it will shine like never before, if it can avoid the traps of materialism. And when it will be able to relate to, comprehend and teach the Living Christ, than it will become the universal religion of all human kind.

Christainity as an organised religion, on the other hand will risk becoming too ritualistic, and exoteric unless it can embrace the truth about reincarnation and, unless it will be able to shed it’s materialst conceptions and fixation on the man Jesus.

Than again none will cry for old garments when they will know grace, power and life in their own hearts.

[QUOTE=prasad;35601]dear sd,
im also hindu which teaches tolerance to all religions
god is one sages call him variously- is the taching of vedas
how could u call any religion stupid implying its follower are also stupid
seeing your posts i thought u are spritual and quite advanced at that.
i once saw it written somewhere- one must have knowledge like underwear but musn’t flaunt it.
not done sd.

rk[/QUOTE]

Namaste Prasad, Hindusim as a tolerant religion needs to explained, because this notion is very misinterpreted, by Hindus themselves. I hear so many Hindus telling Christians, Muslims and Jews that they do not have be Hindus, they just have to be good Christians, Muslims and Jews. Yet, most of the time these Hindus do not realise what a good Muslim and Christian is. If they did they would never give such advise. A good Muslim is one who believes that all non-Muslim people are condemned, that they are inferior beings and deserve to be slain, tortured and enslaved(Read the Quran and the Hadiths to verify what I just said) A good Christian is somebody who believes that they are the chosen ones to lead the rest of the world who are all condemned and must be saved by making them accept Jesus and get a baptism.

You are lucky that many Christians, especially Muslims are not faithful to their religion, otherwise they would be a terror on you. History will not forget what the Christians and Muslims have done to the religions of other people, even if people themselves forget.

Tolerance does not mean masking the truth so that others do not get offended. Do you know the number of Hindus that have been killed by Muslims is estimated to be about 50 million. Do you know how many tens of millions of Hindus were killed by the British? Do you know of the massacre of the Australian aborignes, Native Americans? These people have been virtually exterminated by these religions you are protecting from my words.

Hinduism is not tolerant towards adharma. Read the Hindu texts they explicitly mention the demon religions of people outside India, that the Hindus called asura or mlecchas. Krishna explicitly says that he himself incarnates to destroy adharma.

Please tell me why should we Hindus be tolerant of religions that call us condemned and have historically persecuted us, butchered us in cold blood?

Namaste,

It is clear we Hindus have a superior religion, philosophy, culture and civilisation. However, the members on this forum want me to be politically correct and not actually say this. Yet, is it not interesting, the greatest intellectuals and scientists of the West have said this?

T.S. Elliot
Indian philosophers subtleties make most of the great European philosophers look like school children.

Albert Einstein
We owe a lot to the Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could be made

Julius R Oppenheimer
What we shall find in modern physics, is an exemplication,
and encouragement and refinement of ancient Hindu wisdom

Access to the Vedas is the greatest privelege this century may claim over all previous centuries

Francis M Voltaire
I am convinced everything has come down us from the banks of the Ganges
The Vedas were the most precious gift for which the West has been forever indebted to the East

Queen Fredrika
You Indians are fortunate to have inherited such knowledge, I envy you. While Greece is the country of my birth, India is the country of my soul.

It was my advanced research in physics that had started me on a spiritual quest. It culminated in me accepting the non-dualism or absolute monism of Sankara as my philosophy and science of life.

Arthur Schopenhauer
In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and so elevating as that of the Upanishads. It has been the solace of my life, and it will be solace of my death. They are the products of the highest wisdom

Frederich Von Schlegel
There is no language in the world, even Greek, which has the clarity and philosophical precision of Sanskrit, and this great India is not only at the origin of everything, she is superior in everything, intellectually, religiously or politically, and even the Greek heritage seems pale in comparison.

Henry David Thoreau
In the morning I bathe my intellect with the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita, and in comparison with which our modern world and its literature seems puny and trivial.

Besides the Bhagvad Gita, our Shakespeare seems sometimes youthfully green… Ex orient lux may still be the motto of scholars, for the Western world has not yet derived from the East all the light it is destined to derive thence

One sentence of Vedas is worth the entire state of Massachusetts many times over

Brian David Josepthson
The Vedanta and the Samkhya hold the keys to the laws of mind thought processes which are co-related to the quantum field, i.e., the operation and distribution of particles at atomic and molecular levels

Augustus William Von Schlegel
Even the loftiest philosophy of the Europeans appears like a feeble spark before the Vedanta

Bernard Shaw
The Indian way of life provides the vision of the natural, real way of life. We Westerners veil ourselves with unnatural masks. On the face of India are the tender expressions which carry the mark of the creator

Will Durant
India was the motherland of our race and Sanskrit the mother of Europes languages; she was the mother of our philosophy; mother through the Arabs, of much out of mathematics; mother through the Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity; mother through the village community, of self-government and democracy. Mother India is in many ways the mother of us all

Annie Wood Besant
After a study of some 40 years and more of the great religions of the world, I find none so perfect, none of scientific, none so philosophical and none so spiritual than the great religion known as Hinduism

So I ask those members of this forum who are condemning me for my lack of political correctness in stating the superiority of Hinduism, why should I be polically correct, when some of the greatest intellectuals, scientists, nobel laurettes were not politically correct in stating the superiority of Hinduism? I must say I certainly share good company.

Hindusim is a superior religion and it does indeed make other religions look primitive and stupid. This is a fact. We Hindus are a superior civilisation, and the sooner you recognise this, the better it is for the future of our world. Abrahamic religions are as oudated as the dinosaurs.

Namaste Hubert,

Hinduism does not need science. Rather science needs Hinduism. There is nothing science can provide Hinduism, that is not already known in Hinduism.
So far it has been modern physicists which are looking towards Hinduism, than the other way around. Science must, to save itself from the trap of materialism, adopt the Vedanta view of reality. It must recognise that reality is a field of consciousness and that we(the observers) access this at various frequency ranges. Fortunately, many modern physicists are starting to embrace this model, so there is still hope for science.

Hinduism already teaches about the living Christ. There have been thousands of living Christs in Hinduism throughout the ages. Modern times require modern Christs. Find yourself a guru and it will be just like having the company of a Christ.

The Abrahamic religions are religions of the dead. Abraham is 3000 years out of date. Jesus is now 2000 years out of date. Mohammed is 1500 years out of date.

We need a religion that is up to date not out of date. If we won’t cosume out of date food, why do we consume out of date religions?

SD- I’m sure we could compile a list of intellectuals who can also say the same things about Buddhism, Christianity, etc. It’s wonderful that they said what you posted, but they are not saying other religions are wrong. They didn’t say Hinduism is superior and trumps all other religions. They “found a way”, a gentle way to let people know how wonderful Hinduism is and its wisdom. This my friend, is something you need to find…a gentle way of expressing your views. It has more to do with kindness and compassion toward others then being politically correct.

You are lucky that many Christians, especially Muslims are not faithful to their religion, otherwise they would be a terror on you. History will not forget what the Christians and Muslims have done to the religions of other people, even if people themselves forget.

A true Christian, Buddhist, etc. would not “show terror on you” as you suggested. This is just absurd! As far as not forgetting what has been done, I don’t think anyone will forget the violence of the past in the name of religion. We condemn it. We wish to never repeat the sins of our fathers. But hopefully, as time passed we learned “how” do deal more effectively in our struggles. No one should forget. But we should forgive.

Tolerance does not mean masking the truth so that others do not get offended. Do you know the number of Hindus that have been killed by Muslims is estimated to be about 50 million. Do you know how many tens of millions of Hindus were killed by the British? Do you know of the massacre of the Australian aborignes, Native Americans? These people have been virtually exterminated by these religions you are protecting from my words.

Why can you not speak the truth (as you see it) and still be tolerant? You can speak truth in such a way that is not offensive, condescending or arrogant. People do this all the time. We each have our truth and should respect others truth. Here in America we know what our forefathers did to the Native Americans. I do feel that they continue to be mistreated and this makes me cry for them. And the Blacks in our country continue to struggle for equality after we enslaved them. This is an ugly part of our history and we must acknowledge it. I feel most do. I also feel we have made great strides recently. But to condemn all Americans for what a few did, or have done, is not right. The majority of Americans are good caring people who don’t see color and who see character instead. What I’m trying to show you is you can’t judge all people by a represent few. I don’t judge all Hindus because of my dealings with you. I don’t think you reasoning hold up.

Lotusgirl,

Perhaps you could compile this list, but until you do not your point has no substance. Anyhow, my point was not to show that intellectuals have said great things about Hinduism, but that they were not politically correct in calling it superior. Such as:

“After a study of some 40 years and more of the great religions of the world, I find none so perfect, none of scientific, none so philosophical and none so spiritual than the great religion known as Hinduism”

In other words I am not the only one who considers Hinduism superior to all other religions. I am not going to be politically correct about this point. As this point is a clear fact.

Other religions are indeed wrong. We already know how fundamentally wrong they are. For example we know the earth is not flat, earth is not at the centre of the universe and the sun does not go around the earth. We know that resurrection is impossible. We know that a baptism does not cleanse your mind. We know that there is no heaven and hell out there in space.

This qualifies enough to be called wrong.

A true Christian, Buddhist, etc. would not “show terror on you” as you suggested. This is just absurd! As far as not forgetting what has been done, I don’t think anyone will forget the violence of the past in the name of religion. We condemn it. We wish to never repeat the sins of our fathers. But hopefully, as time passed we learned “how” do deal more effectively in our struggles. No one should forget. But we should forgive.

Hmm, I never said Buddhist. Buddhism is very much a part of Hinduism, as are Jainism and Sikhism. They are considered to be part of the dharma family of religions. I am critiquing the Abrahamic religions here, so don’t conflate them. The fact of the matter is, no matter how great your resolve to not commit the sins of your forefathers, the fact of the matter is the doctrines that produced those sins in the first place, are still alive in those religions today. You want the honest truth? The Taliban are Good muslims. They are doing exactly what their religion says, “Kill the non-believers”

What we need here is not forgiveness but rejection. Why are we still entertaining these religions when we know they are wrong? Reject them and move on. This is the general problem with the West, even once it has discovered something is untrue, it still holds onto it because it lack honesty.

Why can you not speak the truth (as you see it) and still be tolerant? You can speak truth in such a way that is not offensive, condescending or arrogant. People do this all the time. We each have our truth and should respect others truth.

That is because I cannot control your reaction to the truth. I am going to say the truth in a straight forward way. I can say it in a harsh way, in a nice way, but however I say it is going to be the truth. I can tell the emperor he is naked, or I can say he is not wearing any clothes, or tell him to put it away, but either way I am saying exactly the same thing. How many different ways is there of saying Hinduism is a superior religion? Please tell me a polite, not offensive and non-condescending way of saying this.

You are under a mistaken impression that there are several truths and everybody will have their own individual truth. No, there is only one truth, and others will have false knowledge. Either the world is flat or it is a sphere. It cannot be both flat and a sphere.

I recently cornered you and your husband through rational argument on the doctrine of no-self that you believe in. You had no choice anymore either your husband was an imposter or the doctrine of no self was false. As you knew you were cornered you reacted with outrage and anger. You see your outrage and anger did not change the fact that I had demonstrated conclusively that the doctrine you held onto was false. You had lost that debate, but you lacked the honesty to admit it.

As I said the biggest problem with Western civilisation, which is what you are a part of, you lack honesty. This holds you back from making progress. This you are hearing from a superior civilisation that has made loads of progress. Perhaps it is within your best interests to listen.

By the way I never condemened Americans. Not sure where you got that from. Perhaps you should read what I write more carefully? I am condemning the Abrahamic religions for the curse they have been on this planet. They have had their chance to show what had to offer this world and we know they are nonsense. Those who continue to hold onto these religions are like children refusing to let go of Santa claus.

"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth.
Niels Bohr

"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree."
Albert Einstein

They call it “faith” for a reason.

dear ia,
truth is truth, no adjective will reinforce it.
truth aka ‘sat’ remains and means the same in past, present, future, n beyond, so say the scriptures.
regards,
rk