Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

[oak333]

[QUOTE=oak333;36766]I generally agree with you. Probably it is useful to clarify in more depth this point.

I quote here from the book “Yoga of Jesus” by Yogannada:

Quote.

The confusion between “Son of man” and "only begotten Son of God"
has created much bigotry in the community of churchianity, which does not understand or acknowledge the human element in Jesus-that he was a man, born in a mortal body, who had evolved his consciousness to become one with
God Himself. Not the body of Jesus but the consciousness within it was one with the only begotten Son, the Christ Consciousness, the only reflection of God the Father in creation.

End of quote.[/QUOTE]

I think this is an extremely important point and should be elaborated.

“The comforter,which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said to you.” John, 14:26

These Biblical words refer to the threefold nature of God as Father, Son, Holy Ghost (Sat, Tat, Aum in Hindu scriptures)

God the Father is the Absolute, Unmanifested, existing BEYOND vibratory creation.

God the Son is the Christ Consciousness existing WITHIN vibratory creation;
this Christ Consciousness is the “only begotten” or sole reflection of the Uncreated Infinite.

The outward manifestation of the omnipresent Christ Consciousness is Aum (Om). the Word or Holy Ghost: invisible divine power, the only doer, the sole causative and activating force that upholds all creation through vibration.

AUM the blissful Comforter is heard in meditation and reveals to the devotee the ultimate Truth, bringing all things to your remembrance.

             Paramahansa Yogananda

[oak333]

Further elaboratoin on this.

Jesus mentioned “the Son of man which is in heaven.” What does this mean ?

Ordinary souls behold their bodies (“Son of man”) are roaming only on earth.

Free souls like Jesus dwell simultaneously in the physical, astral, and causal heavenly kingdoms.

This is ecstasy of God-cosciousness, defined by yogis as Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

Paramahansa Yogananda

[Surya_Deva]

These Biblical words refer to the threefold nature of God as Father, Son, Holy Ghost (Sat, Tat, Aum in Hindu scriptures)

Sat, Tat and Aum means Truth, That and the cosmic sound. What does that have to do with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

The Hindu trinity is: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Brahma is the creative principle, Vishnu is the preserving principle and Shiva is the destructive principle. How does this tally up with the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost?

[Surya_Deva]

Reading the Gospel of John has made give Jesus some benefit of the doubt. I think Jesus is making rather bold and declarative statements, and his manner of teaching with cryptic parables and ambigious statements I find to be somewhat irresponsible, but perhaps Jesus felt this was the only way to communicate with the people at that time.
It is obvious he did not condone the old Mosaic religion, otherwise he would not have reinterpreted the old commandments. When the woman who commited adultery was getting stoned, Jesus said, “Let any man here who has not sinned, pick up the first stone” when it was clear that Mosaic law demanded that she be stoned to death. So in many ways we can Jesus was bringing a radically new teaching opposed to the Mosaic religion.

I do find hints of Advaita philosophy in some of the things Jesus is saying. That by knowing him you can know god. That he and his father are one and that the father dwells within him. At this moment the Jews are about to stone him, to which he rebukes, “Does it not say, “Ye are gods” in your scriptures” So in a sense Jesus is saying that we are all gods, but he has been able to realise this truth. Unfortunately, what I do not like is that Jesus never makes this clear enough. It often sounds like he is saying only he exclusively is the “Son of god” and he tells his disciples to spread his name. Why would he teach this? Should he not reach them all that they are gods just like him, and teach a way to become like gods?

The biggest problem I have with Jesus is how ambigious he makes everything he says and his tendency to glorify himself so much as if he is god or the right hand man of god.

[oak333]

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36836]Sat, Tat and Aum means Truth, That and the cosmic sound. What does that have to do with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

The Hindu trinity is: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Brahma is the creative principle, Vishnu is the preserving principle and Shiva is the destructive principle. How does this tally up with the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost?[/QUOTE]

Sat=God beyond creation

Tat=God within creation

Aum= cosmic vibration, the doer

http://www.ananda.org/meditation/support/techniques/aum-technique.html

This is exactly the correspondent of the threefold Christian nature of God:
God the Father, God the Son, and the Holuy Ghost (the Word or AUM)

Note: My mother language is not Indian and it looks surprising that I have
to show the meaning of Indian words to an Indian.

[Surya_Deva]

Note: My mother language is not Indian and it looks surprising that I have
to show the meaning of Indian words to an Indian.

That is because this is not the meaning, these are interpretations of new age Hindu sects in the West and completely exclusive to them. In this case the Self-realization fellowship. Most Indians do not know these. We know what the meaning of these words are

Sat = Truth
Tat = That
Aum = Cosmic sound/Sound of creation

No Indian has ever heard of any trinity in Hinduism which is formed of Sat, Tat and Aum. However we heard of the mantra, “Om Tat Sat” which means “That AUM is verily the truth” This has got nothing to do with the Father, Son and the Holy spirit.

[Surya_Deva]

Please explain this from John, Chapter 3:

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19

[Surya_Deva]

I have had enough of reading the Gospels now. I conclude Jesus really does beleive he is the ONLY son of god and sometimes he is close to saying he is god. He really believes everybody should follow him. He really believes he has the power to save people. He really believes he is the right-hand man of god. In modern times if somebody went around making claims like this, I think we all know where that person would end up.

I no longer believe Jesus was ever enlightened now. I do not see evidence of an enlightened master here, but evidence of something else altogether, which I will keep to myself.

I am so fortunate I was in born in the Dharmic traditions!

[lotusgirl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lotusgirl
Surya,

If you have really read the Bible then you know Jesus was not the ‘son of man’ as you said above. He stated he was the son of God. The son of God who was sent here in a mortal body to save us from our sins. God knew the only way we could be saved, see the light, etc was to send his only son, in a human body so we could understand.

.
I generally agree with you. Probably it is useful to clarify in more depth this point.

"the son of man’ has been quoted many times in the NT. The meaning behind this is quite simple. It means he is ‘of the flesh’, in other words, Human. Jesus is still the son of God, but he was sent here by the Father, as a man.

[QUOTE[/QUOTE]

When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30), He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus declared this because according to the teachings of the Bible, he is. Three persons in one God. Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

[Asuri]

Atharva Veda VIII, 8. Battle-charm.

1. May Indra churn (the enemy), he, the churner, Sakra (mighty), the hero, that pierces the forts, so that we shall slay the armies of the enemies a thousandfold!
2. May the rotten rope, wafting itself against yonder army, turn it into a stench. When the enemies see from afar our smoke and fire, fear shall they lay into their hearts!
3. Tear asunder those (enemies), O asvattha (ficus religiosa), devour (kh?da) them, O! khadira (acacia catechu) in lively style! Like the t?gadbhanga (ricinus communis) they shall be broken (bhagyant?m), may the vadhaka (a certain kind of tree) slay them with his weapons (vadhaih)!
4. May the knotty ?hva-plant put knots upon yonder (enemies), may the vadhaka slay them with his weapons! Bound up in (our) great trap-net, they shall quickly be broken as an arrow-reed!
5. The atmosphere was the net, the great regions (of space) the (supporting) poles of the net: with these Sakra (mighty Indra) did surround and scatter the army of the Dasyus.
6. Great, forsooth, is the net of great Sakra, who is rich in steeds: with it infold thou all the enemies, so that not one of them shall be released!
7. Great is the net of thee, great Indra, hero, that art equal to a thousand, and hast hundredfold might. With that (net) Sakra slew a hundred, thousand, ten thousand, a hundred million foes, having surrounded them with (his) army.
8. This great world was the net of great Sakra: with this net of Indra I infold all those (enemies) yonder in darkness,
9. With great dejection, failure, and irrefragable misfortune; with fatigue, lassitude, and confusion, do I surround all those (enemies) yonder.
10. To death do I hand them over, with the fetters of death they have been bound. To the evil messengers of death do I lead them captive.
11. Guide ye those (foes), ye messengers of death; ye messengers of Yama, infold them! Let more than thousands be slain; may the club of Bhava crush them!
12. The S?dhyas (blessed) go holding up with might one support of the net, the Rudras another, the Vasus another, (Still) another is upheld by the ?dityas.
13. All the gods shall go pressing from above with might; the Angiras shall go on the middle (of the net), slaying the mighty army!
14. The trees, and (growths) that are like trees, the plants and the herbs as well; two-footed and four-footed creatures do I impel, that they shall slay yonder army!
15. The Gandharvas and Apsaras, the serpents and the gods, holy men and (deceased) Fathers, the visible and invisible (beings), do I impel, that they shall slay yonder army!
16. Scattered here are the fetters of death; when thou steppest upon them thou shalt not escape! May this hammer slay (the men) of yonder army by the thousand!
17. The gharma (sacrificial hot drink) that has been heated by the fire, this sacrifice (shall) slay thousands! Do ye, Bhava and Sarva, whose arms are mottled, slay yonder army!
18. Into the (snare of) death they shall fall, into hunger, exhaustion, slaughter, and fear! O Indra and Sarva, do ye with trap and net slay yonder army!
19. Conquered, O foes, do ye flee away; repelled by (our) charm, do ye run! Of yonder host, repulsed by Brihaspati, not one shall be saved!
20. May their weapons fall from their (hands), may they be unable to lay the arrow on (the bow)! And then (our) arrows shall smite them, badly frightened, in their vital members!
21. Heaven and earth shall shriek at them, and the atmosphere, along with the divine powers! Neither aider, nor support did they find; smiting one another they shall go to death!
22. The four regions are the she-mules of the god’s chariot, the purod?sas (sacrificial rice-cakes) the hoofs, the atmosphere the seat (of the wagon). Heaven and earth are its two sides, the seasons the reins, the intermediate regions the attendants, V?k (speech) the road.
23. The year is the chariot, the full year is the body of the chariot, Vir?g, the pole, Agni the front part of the chariot. Indra is the (combatant) standing on the left of the chariot, Kandramas (the moon) the charioteer.
24. Do thou win here, do thou conquer here, overcome, win, hail! These here shall conquer, those yonder be conquered! Hail to these here, perdition to those yonder! Those yonder do I envelop in blue and red!

So much for the myth of Hindu non-violence.

[Asuri]

[B] Rig Veda Book2 HYMN I. Agni.[/B]

1. THOU, Agni, shining in thy glory through the days, art brought to life from out the waters, from the stone:
   From out the forest trees and herbs that grow on ground, thou, Sovran Lord of men art generated pure.
   2 Thine is the Herald’s task and Cleanser’s duly timed; Leader art thou, and Kindler for the pious man.
   Thou art Director, thou the ministering Priest: thou art the Brahman, Lord and Master in our home.
   3 Hero of Heroes, Agni! Thou art Indra, thou art Viṣṇu of the Mighty Stride, adorable:
   Thou, Brahmaṇaspati, the Brahman finding wealth: thou, O Sustainer, with thy wisdom tendest us.
   4 Agni, thou art King Varuṇa whose laws stand fast; as Mitra, Wonder-Worker, thou must be implored.
   Aryaman, heroes’ Lord, art thou, enriching all, and liberal Aṁśa in the synod, O thou God.
   5 Thou givest strength, as Tvaṣṭar, to the worshipper: thou wielding Mitra’s power hast kinship with the Dames.
   Thou, urging thy fleet coursers, givest noble steeds: a host of heroes art thou with great store of wealth.
   6 Rudra art thou, the Asura of mighty heaven: thou art the Maruts? host, thou art the Lord of food,
   Thou goest with red winds: bliss hast thou in thine home. As Pūṣan thou thyself protectest worshippers.
   7 Giver of wealth art thou to him who honours thee; thou art God Savitar, granter of precious things.
   As Bhaga, Lord of men! thou rulest over wealth, and guardest in his house him who hath served thee well.
   8 To thee, the people’s Lord within the house, the folk press forward to their King most graciously inclined.
   Lord of the lovely look, all things belong to thee: ten, hundred, yea, a thousand are outweighed by thee.
   9 Agni, men seek thee as a Father with their prayers, win thee, bright-formed, to brotherhood with holy act.
   Thou art a Son to him who duly worships thee, and as a trusty Friend thou guardest from attack.
   10 A Ṛbhu art thou, Agni, near to be adored thou art the Sovran Lord of foodful spoil and wealth.
   Thou shinest brightly forth, thou burnest to bestow: pervading sacrifice, thou lendest us thine help.
   11 Thou, God, art Aditi to him who offers gifts: thou, Hotrā, Bhāratī, art strengthened by the song.
   Thou art the hundred-wintered Iḷā to give strength, Lord of Wealth! Vṛtra-slayer and Sarasvatī.
   12 Thou, Agni, cherished well, art highest vital power; in thy delightful hue are glories visible.
   Thou art the lofty might that furthers each design: thou art wealth manifold, diffused on every side.
   13 Thee, Agni, have the Ādityas taken as their mouth; the Bright Ones have made thee, O Sage, to be their tongue.
   They who love offerings cling to thee at solemn rites: by thee the Gods devour the duly offered food.
   14 By thee, O Agni, all the Immortal guileless Gods cat with thy mouth the oblation that is offered them.
   By thee do mortal men give sweetness to their drink. Bright art thou born, the embryo of the plants of earth.
   15 With these thou art united, Agni; yea thou, God of noble birth, surpassest them in majesty,
   Which, through the power of good, here spreads abroad from thee, diffused through both the worlds, throughout the earth and heaven.
   16 The princely worshippers who send to those who sing thy praise, O Agni, guerdon graced with kine and steeds,?
   Lead thou both these and us forward to higher bliss. With brave men in the assembly may we speak aloud.

So much for the myth of Hindu science. It appears to be the science of securing wealth and protection through prayers and worship of the gods.

[Asuri]

[B]Yajur Veda i. 3. 8.[/B]

a I grasp thee.
b Offering to the gods, I seize thee with the noose of sacred order.
c Fear not men.
d For the waters thee, for the plants thee, I sprinkle.
e Thou art a drinker of the waters.
f Ye divine waters, make it palatable, a very palatable offering for the
gods.
g Let thy breath be united with the wind, thy limbs with the sacrificial, the lord of the sacrifice with his prayer.
h Anointed with ghee, do ye guard the beast.
i Ye wealthy ones, do ye kindly I resort to the lord of the sacrifice.
k O broad atmosphere, in unison with the god [1] wind, sacrifice with the life of this offering; be united with its body; extending more broadly, make the sacrifice of the lord of the sacrifice most successful.
l Guard from contact with earth.
m Homage to thee, O extended one.
n Come forward, irresistible, along the stream of ghee, with offspring, with increase of wealth.
o O ye waters, goddesses, purifying and pure, do ye bring the gods; may we, pure and served (by you), be servers upon you.

…and the science of sacrificial offerings.

[Asuri]

Upon closer reading, I retract my statement about the myth of non-violence.

[Asuri]

[B]Rig Veda Book 1 HYMN VIII. Indra.[/B]

1 INDRA, bring wealth that gives delight, the victor’s ever-conquering wealth,
Most excellent, to be our aid;
2 By means of which we may repel our foes in battle hand to hand,
By thee assisted with the car.
3 Aided by thee, the thunder-armed, Indra, may we lift up the bolt,
And conquer all our foes in fight.
4 With thee, O India, for ally with missile-darting heroes, may
We conquer our embattled foes.
5 Mighty is Indra, yea supreme; greatness be his, the Thunderer:
Wide as the heaven extends his power
6 Which aideth those to win them sons, who come as heroes to the fight,
Or singers loving holy thoughts.
7 His belly, drinking deepest draughts of Soma, like an ocean swells,
Like wide streams from the cope of heaven.
8 So also is his excellence, great, vigorous, rich in cattle, like
A ripe branch to the worshipper.
9 For verily thy mighty powers, Indra, are saving helps at once
Unto a worshipper like me.
10 So are his lovely gifts; let lauds and praises be to Indra sung,
That he may drink the Soma juice.

It does seem, though, that Indra is the god of warfare.

[Asuri]

[B]Rig Veda book 6 HYMN LXXV. Weapons of War.[/B]

1. THE warrior’s look is like a thunderous rain-cloud’s, when, armed with mail, he seeks the lap of battle.
   Be thou victorious with unwounded body: so let the thickness of thy mail protect thee.
   2 With Bow let us win kine, with Bow the battle, with Bow be victors in our hot encounters.
   The Bow brings grief and sorrow to the foeman: armed with the Bow may we subdue all regions.
   3 Close to his car, as fain to speak, She presses, holding her well-loved Friend in her embraces.
   Strained on the Bow, She whispers like a woman-this Bowstring that preserves us in the combat.
   4 These, meeting like a woman and her lover, bear, mother-like, their child upon their bosom.
   May the two Bow-ends, starting swift asunder, scatter, in unison, the foes who hate us.
   5 With many a son, father of many daughters, He clangs and clashes as he goes to battle.
   Slung on the back, pouring his brood, the Quiver vanquishes all opposing bands and armies.
   6 Upstanding in the Car the skilful Charioteer guides his strong Horses on whithersoe’er he will.
   See and admire the strength of those controlling Reins which from behind declare the will of him who drives.
   7 Horses whose hoofs rain dust are neighing loudly, yoked to the Chariots, showing forth their vigour,
   With their forefeet descending on the foemen, they, never flinching, trample and destroy them.
   8 Car-bearer is the name of his oblation, whercon are laid his Weapons and his Armour.
   So let us here, each day that passes, honour the helpful Car with hearts exceeding joyful.
   9 In sweet association lived the fathers who gave us life, profound and strong in trouble,
   Unwearied, armed with shafts and wondrous weapons, free, real heroes, conquerors of armies.
   10 The Brahmans, and the Fathers meet for Soma-draughts, and, graciously inclined, unequalled Heaven and Earth.
   Guard us trom evil, Pūṣan, guard us strengtheners of Law: let not the evil-wisher master us.
   11 Her tooth a deer, dressed in an eagle’s feathers, bound with cow-hide, launched forth, She flieth onward.
   There where the heroes speed hither and thither, there may the Arrows shelter and protect us.
   12 Avoid us thou whose flight is straight, and let our bodies be as stone.
   May Soma kindly speak to us, and Aditi protect us well.
   13 He lays his blows upon their backs, he deals his blows upon their thighs.
   Thou, Whip, who urgest horses, drive sagacious horses in the fray.
   14 It compasses the arm with serpent windings, fending away the friction of the bowstring:
   So may the Brace, well-skilled in all its duties, guard manfully the man from every quarter.
   15 Now to the Shaft with venom smeared, tipped with deer-horn, with iron mouth,
   Celestial, of Parjanya’s seed, be this great adoration paid.
   16 Loosed from the Bowstring fly away, thou Arrow, sharpened by our prayer.
   Go to the foemen, strike them home, and let not one be left alive.
   17 There where the flights of Arrows fall like boys whose locks are yet unshorn.
   Even there may Brahmaṇaspati, and Aditi protect us well, protect us well through all our days.
   18 Thy vital parts I cover with thine Armour: with immortality King Soma clothe thee.
   Varuṇa give thee what is more than ample, and in thy triumph may the Gods be joyful.
   19 Whoso would kill us, whether he be a strange foe or one of us,

Need I say more? Actually yes, because this also disproves the assertion that there was never any armed conquest or invasion of India.

[Asuri]

[B]Atharva Veda VII, 50. Prayer for success at dice.[/B]

1. As the lightning at all times smites irresistibly the tree, thus would I to-day irresistibly beat the gamesters with my dice!
2. Whether they be alert, or not alert, the fortune of (these) folks, unresisting, shall assemble from all sides, the gain (collect) within my hands!
3. I invoke with reverence Agni, who has his own riches; here attached he shall beap up gain for us! I procure (wealth) for myself, as if with chariots that win the race. May I accomplish auspiciously the song of praise to the Maruts!
4. May we by thy aid conquer the (adversary s) troop; help us (to obtain) our share in every contest! Make for us, O Indra, a good and ample road; crush, O Maghavan, the lusty power of our enemies!
5. I have conquered and cleaned thee out (?); I have also gained thy reserve. As the wolf plucks to pieces the sheep, thus do I pluck thy winnings.
6. Even the strong hand the bold player conquers, as the skilled gambler heaps up his winnings at the proper time. Upon him that loves the game (the god), and does not spare his money, (the game, the god) verily bestows the delights of wealth.
7. Through (the possession of) cattle we all would suppress (our) wretched poverty, or with grain our hunger, O thou oft implored (god)! May we foremost among rulers, unharmed, gain wealth by our cunning devices!
8. Gain is deposited in my right hand, victory in my left. Let me become a conqueror of cattle, horses, wealth, and gold!
9. O dice, yield play, profitable as a cow that is rich in milk! Bind me to a streak of gain, as the bow (is bound) with the string!

I think I’m going to take up poker.

[Surya_Deva]

Namaste,

These are not authentic translations of the Vedas. So they do not affect me in the slightest. These translations are done by European indologists and all date back to the late 19th century, when Sanskrit studies was in its infacy. These translations are based on Aryan invasion theory, the idea that nomadic barbarian people from Central Asia invaded the Indian subcontinent, which is now thorougly debunked. They do not use the proper Sanskrit method to translate them, but use their own method based on looking at what the words mean in other Indo-European languages, rather what they meant in Sanskrit dictionaries. These translations are not useful to anybody, because they read like gibberish. Kind of obvious as the translators had poor grasp of Sanskrit.

I am citing from authentic translations of the bible and Quran. So you also need to cite from authentic translations of the Vedas. Otherwise I will simply ignore it.

[Alix]

SD, you’re quoting things but taking them out of context. You seem offended when Asuri does the same thing. Can you see then how it frustrates people when you do this to them?

[Surya_Deva]

I am not offended. Like I said, I invite criticism of my religion. However, it has to be valid criticism. I am citing from authentic translations of the Bible, which contain these things. Asuri is citing from inauthentic translations of the Vedas done in the late 19th century, based on now debunked theories of Aryan race myths. These translations were contorversial from the start. They were challenged by Sanskrit scholars and even by Western intellectuals.

[Asuri]

[quote=surya deva;36887]namaste,

these are not authentic translations of the vedas. So they do not affect me in the slightest. These translations are done by european indologists and all date back to the late 19th century, when sanskrit studies was in its infacy. These translations are based on aryan invasion theory, the idea that nomadic barbarian people from central asia invaded the indian subcontinent, which is now thorougly debunked. They do not use the proper sanskrit method to translate them, but use their own method based on looking at what the words mean in other indo-european languages, rather what they meant in sanskrit dictionaries. These translations are not useful to anybody, because they read like gibberish. Kind of obvious as the translators had poor grasp of sanskrit.

I am citing from authentic translations of the bible and quran. So you also need to cite from authentic translations of the vedas. Otherwise i will simply ignore it.[/quote]

LOL :lol: