Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

Spirituality Religion
#35

Namaste Lotusgirl,

The difference in the quotes I listed and the quotes you listed, is the quotes made about Hinduism is by non-Hindu Western intellectuals commenting on its philosophy, sciences and history and even borrowing from it(Arthur Schopenhauer and Nicole Tesla both based their works on Hinduism, and admited they did) The quotes you listed are from Christian scientists praising Christianity as their faith. For example:

“From a knowledge of His work, we shall know Him”
“Christ’s passion, His death, His resurrection and ascension, and all of those wonderful works which He did during His stay upon earth, in order to confirm mankind in the belief of His being God as well as man.”

#36

Dear Surya, go back and review our conversation under Dogma Free Yoga and you shall see that what you have stated above is not the truth. I was kind, with no anger in my response to you telling me my husband was an imposter. You speak of truth yet do not practice it.

Nonsense, you were not kind. You were angry and condemned me for saying this. Rather than seeing the point I was making which was either your husband was an imposter or the no self doctrine was false. I had conclusively demonstrated the no-self doctrine was false and you had no way out.

You cannot generalize like this. To assume that everyone except Hindus are dishonest is plain wrong. How can you even think this way? This is NOT TOLERANCE!
Words like “superior” also does nothing to further “your cause”. Superior is a condescending term when used this way. It is a subjective term.

Nope, I have not assumed everyone except Hindus is dishonest. I have said this is a general problem with Western civilisation that it when it discovers truth, it does not acknowledge it right away because it goes against what it believes. For example Socrates was executed for speaking the truth. Jesus was also executed. So was Galileo. It took almost 20 years to accept Einstein’s work on the photoelectric effect. We have now had a century of research in parapsychology and it still not accepted. Quantum mechanics has proven since 1930 that the observer collapses the wavefunction, but now we are in 2010 and still this is not accepted. So generally the West has a problem with honesty. This holds it back from making progress.

I knew there was no other way of saying Hinduism is superior that you would consider polite, non-condescending and tolerant. I am afraid though that is exactly what I am arguing and so far I have demonstrated it very well as well.

You have a particular philosophy called relativism. That is fair enough you are entitled to your worldview, but this does not mean I am suppose to agree with it. Nor are you entitled to impose that philosophy on me. Not all religions are equal, and I have already demonstrated this with my recent comparison between Christianity and Hinduism.

#37

Surya,

Not all my quotes were from Christian scientists or intellectuals. Read them again. On my second post, there are many from Gandhi and others like Einstein, Dalai Lama. Especially the Gandhi quotes go to the point of many religions and tolerance and “we’re all trying to get there using different paths”.

You also did not respond to my point about 1. Anger and re-reading the discussion between us. I was not angry. 2. Generalizing and using works like 'superior’
3. Reason I brought up about America.

Also another interesting thought to ponder. I just had a discussion recently with a friend who has spent much time in India over the last 5 years. He could not believe how western India has become and is becoming. He said western culture is everywhere and they can’t get enough of it. I found that curious in light of our discussions here so I asked why? His response was Western culture is simpler and easier to follow than the complex, scientific Hindu religion and lifestyle.

One final quote: “I think that would be a good idea” Mahatma Gandhi’s opinion of western culture. Hum…

#38

[QUOTE=Pawel;35652]Some things in this thread are getting more and more dark. E.g. if Hinduism is superior (and its even more than that - its pure science and all religions are just irrational beliefs bringing suffering to people), logical consequence is that other religions should be abandoned and people should convert. Process should start with rewriting the history and separating superstitious religious practices in India from true Hinduism which is true and only science of reality. Purification of people of other religions is for their good so removal of all obstacles on the way to this goal is justified (even if it would result with some discomfort - its just pain of transformation to better self and better world in the end). Also, people of true religion should be given priority in jobs of responsibility, related with decision making and opinion formation (so media included). After all such jobs influence how world moves on so in interest of true religion those positions should be given first to appropriate people. Also, it seems reasonable to purify education system of elements related to false religions. Minds of young kids are very naive and should be protected from bad influences until they reach appropriate age. Think how much damage to their minds could be avoided if they would learn just pure and true religion-science. List can go on…

Its all very logical, isn’t it?[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily.

In Hinduism nobody is forced to accept Hindu religion. Moreover, one cannot become Hindu by adopting any beliefs, they become Hindu through practicing its core tenets, such as living in accordance with dharma and striving constantly for self-realization. As such Hinduism is a personal religion and hence a personal choice. This is why in the history of Hinduism no attempt has been made to convert others to Hinduism.

Hindusim spreads through cultural and intellectual exchange whereby a non-Hindu accepts its core tenets and practices by their own choice. Often, they initiate the interest themselves. Like I have pointed out before, 20 million Americans practicing Yoga and chanting Hindu mantras have not been forced by anybody to do it. They do it out of their own personal choice. I chose Hinduism myself, nobody converted me to it.

Hinduism does not have any doctrine of chosen ones, for it holds everybody in humanity as equally capable irrrespective of caste, creed, sect, gender, sexuality. Hinduism rather than being a peoples religion, is a universal way of life, science and philosophy which teaches principles that should be followed for prospertity. It those principles that we need model the world on, its socio-economic structure, education system, science, medicine and religion. This will lead to a properous future for the entire world. Now, this of course can only happen by accepting Hinduism is superior and that it is the Hindu way of life we need to adopt.

#39

I have a hard time thinking of a civilization as superior when that civilization places people in castes, with the lower castes alloted ‘slavery’ privileges, little girls are married off at age 4 to pedophiles, its city streets strewn with garbage and litter and poor castes made to live in filthy shacks, its sanitary system and public transport incomparable in its ineffectiveness, its politicians corrupt with greed beyond the dreams of Avarice. Nevermind worshipping blue gods with elephant noses and no end of arms. I mean, it makes for neat art, but superior??? I don’ t’ink so.

There’s still some ‘splainin’ to do.

#40

Nonsense, you were not kind. You were angry and condemned me for saying this. Rather than seeing the point I was making which was either your husband was an imposter or the no self doctrine was false. I had conclusively demonstrated the no-self doctrine was false and you had no way out.

I challenge you to go back and re-read the discussion again. I said nothing that could have construed as being angry or condemning you. This is nonsense! I kept saying let’s make peace and agree to disagree. You were the angry one because I chose not to further engage. And BTW, my husband is a teacher and really does have a masters. Actually quite close to a PHD in Education. He worked his butt off to get that masters while working full time with 3 small children. Don’t assume you know anything about him. Having a masters in Philosophy, he knew in reading your posts, that you weren’t listening to what was being shared. We explained the rape issue and why Buddhists would never do such a thing. YOU chose not to listen.

[QUOTE]Nope, I have not assumed everyone except Hindus is dishonest. I have said this is a general problem with Western civilisation that it when it discovers truth, it does not acknowledge it right away because it goes against what it believes. For example Socrates was executed for speaking the truth. Jesus was also executed. So was Galileo. It took almost 20 years to accept Einstein’s work on the photoelectric effect. We have now had a century of research in parapsychology and it still not accepted. Quantum mechanics has proven since 1930 that the observer collapses the wavefunction, but now we are in 2010 and still this is not accepted. So generally the West has a problem with honesty. This holds it back from making progress.

[/QUOTE]

Yes you have. Your first sentence said, ‘it’s a general problem’. That is generalizing.
The West is a melting pot of many, if not all religions. You cannot generalize like this.

My apologies for my post previous asking for a response. You must have posted it while I was typing.

#41

Namaste Flex,

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Hinduism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean. For instance the “gods” and you mention Ganesha who has the form of an elephant. Ganesha means “lord of counting/calculation” It is the power described in the Vedic literature which presides over the function of memory. Later, this is given the artistic depiction of an elephants head because of the association between good memory and elephants. Similarly, all of the gods you see depicted with their multiple forms are symbols for profound concepts.

Regarding the caste system. The caste system as it exists within Hinduism only has 4 occupational divisions(there are not out-castes) which is labourer, merchant, warrior and teacher/sage and all people based on their aptitude are assigned to these divisions. The caste system has existed in various forms throughout the history of India both as birth-based systems and merit-based systems. In later times, when the British came into India, they abolished the traditional industries of India in order to replace Indian industry with British industry, as a result Indian industry died out and Indians were impoverished. As those Indians did not have skills for other professions, many of them were forced to take unsanitary jobs like cleaning sewers, toilets and they joined the class of “untouchables”

Regarding children getting married of at 4. This tradition came to India with the Muslims. It is not a Hindu tradition. I think you should bear in mind Mohammed got married to a 8-9year old girl. Another reason for this tradition was that during Muslim rule of India Hindu families needed to safeguard their girls, who would fall prety later on to Muslims who would rape them, prostitute them or keep them as slaves. So in order to protect them Hindu families would make a contract with another Hindu family to marry of their girl, but this would be consumated until both the boy and the girl had reached puberty.

In the traditional Hindu culture there was a set age for marriage based on the system of 4 stages of life. From the age of 8-22 was the age of education. From the age of 22-40 was the age of married life.

Do not mistake the history of India with Hinduism. You need to bear in the mind for the last 1000 years India has been under the occupation of Muslims and then the British. If you want a true image of Hindu society look at the periods of 7000BCE to 1000AD, when India was Hindu and you will see the superior civilisation it had.

#42

In Hinduism nobody is forced to accept Hindu religion.

And yet by denigrating all other faiths and touting Hinduism as superior you are attempting to force others to accept it.

Tolerance can be a part of any religion or faith.

Surya Deva, your passion is clear, but your tolerance is murky. You perhap offend without realizing, but yet many have been specific about their offense. I can only speak for myself, but I accept you have your belief and will not attempt to sway you to mine. Will you do the same? There can be acceptance without belief.

#43

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35660]
The problem with an outsider when they are look into Hinduism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean. [/QUOTE]

Interesting statement because anyone could start the same way in defense of any religion

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Catholicism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Buddhism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Muslimism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Shinto they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Taoism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Protestantism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Judaism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Christianity they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Confucianism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into the Rastafari movement they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

You do not see this, nor and I going to spend time trying to convince you but the statement ?The problem with an outsider? is the entire problem with your view?. Like I said? your cup is full.

#44

It is funny how much you miss the point. My point was not that your husband does not have a Masters degree, my point was to show how ridiculous your no-self-doctrine was and how by accepting that doctrine you cannot justify your husbands masters degree and the hard work he put in to get it.

It is obvious that you believe your husband worked his butt off to get his masters and therefore the man who worked his butt off to get his his masters and the man that you know today are both the same person. Therefore there is a continuation of self. Therefore the no-self doctrine is false.

At this point you should reject the no-self doctrine.

Yes you have. Your first sentence said, ‘it’s a general problem’. That is generalizing.
The West is a melting pot of many, if not all religions. You cannot generalize like this.

There is nothing wrong with generalizaing. Academics are doing it all the time. If you make a general statement it states a general truth about something. Yes, the West has many religions, but of those the main religion is Christianity and all other religions are minorities. I was making a general statement about Western civilization that it is dishonest. It does not accept truth right away, everybody who speaks truth gets persecuted. A notable philosopher foucoult has also made this point about the West. In contrast, in Hindu civilisation nobody has ever got persecuted for speaking the truth. Such as been the honesty in this tradition that if you lost in a formal debate, you would accept the winning philosophy. This made it possible for Indian society to develop a widely diverse philosophical tradition with every school you can think of represented. Nobody was afraid to say anything. You could openly debate any idea you wanted.

The West is far behind I am afraid.

#45

You do not see this, nor and I going to spend time trying to convince you but the statement ?The problem with an outsider? is the entire problem with your view?. Like I said? your cup is full.

Namaste,

Nice attempt, but failed. I am not an outsider to Christianity and Islam because I have actually studied these religions. I have a copy of the bible at home for petes sake.

#46

I’m not a religious person so faith has always been quite fascinating to me. Would you describe what Surya Deva has in regards to Hinduism as faith?

To everyone:

I’m sincerely not really sure what it is about Surya Deva that bothers everyone so much. Maybe because I’m not religious and therefore don’t feel like something I believe in is being attacked?

The PM’s and reported posts I get are sometimes full of so much anger. I honestly don’t see where it comes from. Is it because he is uncompromising in his views and believes so strongly in Hinduism that everything else is wrong? If so, I honestly don’t see what’s wrong with that? Intolerant? Maybe, but I don’t see malice behind that. I just see uncompromising belief that can’t be swayed. Why try to move an immovable rock?

#47

I cannot force you to accept Hinduism. I can only show you Hinduism is superior and right on everything. It is then your choice whether you want to hold onto inferior, out of date and false religions and move onto superior religions.

I never force anybody to do anything. It is not the Hindu way to force anybody.

Tolerance can be a part of any religion or faith.

Nope, the Abrahamic religions have historically shown they are not tolerant, and they are not tolerant today either. These religions very publically proclaim everybody else is condemned and is going to hell. What tolerance are you speaking of?

#48

[quote=Surya Deva;35669]I cannot force you to accept Hinduism. I can only show you Hinduism is superior and right on everything. It is then your choice whether you want to hold onto inferior, out of date and false religions and move onto superior religions.

I never force anybody to do anything. It is not the Hindu way to force anybody.[/quote]
If you’re not trying to force Hinduism upon anyone, what is your purpose for discussing all of this; what is your goal? To educate people of your perspective so that people can then make their own decisions? Or something else?

#49

Namaste David,

I have no goal other than rational discussion of my viewpoint in this thread and arguing my viewpoint with evidence and reason - which everybody else is entitled to as well. This is what this thread is suppose to be about right? “Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions” Although it is not necessarily calm because my view itself is considered offensive by so many people that Hinduism is a superior religion. However, this is my view, and this is exactly my proposition in this debate. It would be more healthy for this discussion if people stop attacking me for holding this view, and instead engage with my view by either finding out why I maintain this view or refute it. I think the main problem, however is, because this view is so stong and supported by evidence, they are finding it hard to argue against.

I mean can we really defend the Abrahamic religions from the charge of intolerance and giving false statements which fly in the face of science, such as the earth being flat and people rising from their graves?

#50

Thank you David for your gentle words.

I really don’t think that anyone is trying to ‘change Surya Deva’s’ mind regarding his religion. What we all want is to have an open honest discussion without such words as ‘superior, the only way, you are wrong’ etc. I think we all enjoy sharing opposing viewpoints and have learned much from this. Most all celebrate diversity in our cultures and religious beliefs. We all have a common bond that links us all, and it’s called yoga.
No one likes to be told that their religious belief is wrong or stupid. It is all in how it is presented. Have I been a little angel, no. I have let myself get frustrated in trying to help him understand where ‘the rest of us are coming from’. I did not, however, deserve the words that were thrown at me.

You are correct, why try to move an unmovable rock? This is good advice, but again, I don’t see anyone trying to change his mind. I know I just want acceptance of my views. They may be different than his, but they are my truth and what I live by.

#51

[QUOTE=David;35668]I’m sincerely not really sure what it is about Surya Deva that bothers everyone so much. Maybe because I’m not religious and therefore don’t feel like something I believe in is being attacked?

The PM’s and reported posts I get are sometimes full of so much anger. I honestly don’t see where it comes from. Is it because he is uncompromising in his views and believes so strongly in Hinduism that everything else is wrong? If so, I honestly don’t see what’s wrong with that? Intolerant? Maybe, but I don’t see malice behind that. I just see uncompromising belief that can’t be swayed. Why try to move an immovable rock?[/QUOTE]

I’m wondering the same. Not only with regards to this forum and SD but also other places I visit. From time to time I like to watch on youtube clips by “enlightened” fundamentalists (e.g. christian or muslim priests). There is something relevant there for me. For long time I was wondering why I like to listen to such clearly offensive and insane rubbish. Now I think maybe because part of me agrees with them? That I missed some things on the way to be beyond aggression and prejudice?

I remember a story in “Brothers Karamazov” by Dostoyevsky: the devil sharing his sentiment. That sometimes he looks at old, fat women lighting candles in church with mundane wishes. The devil wished he would be like that - to forget about everything and just be such old woman with her simple life and a candle in church…

So maybe this anger is because SD is waking up the shadow that people would prefer to forget and get rid of? Such things as being totally right, arrogant, offensive etc? And they would wish to be like that but they don’t accept it and that is the source of frustration and anger?

#52

I know I just want acceptance of my views. They may be different than his, but they are my truth and what I live by.

And they maybe plain wrong :smiley:

Your position is relaivism. Fine. This is your position in this debate. Then argue for it, defend it and refute the opposing position. However, you cannot expect everybody here to accept your position just like that.

But sorry if somebody comes and tells me there will come a day where everybody will rise out of their grave and stand judgement before god, I am going to call that stupid. What else can I call that? Do you accept me to just say, “Oh okay then”

#53

Sounds fair to me. The evidence and reason you (and others arguing their viewpoint) provide is greatly appreciated. I’ve learned more about Hinduism and other religions in this and like threads than any class I’ve ever taken. It’s fascinating.

But that’s him being open and honest about how he feels. If you REALLY want an open and honest discussion with someone, you have to be prepared for exactly that :slight_smile:

There is MUCH to be learned in these threads. It’s incredible! I thank all of you who have the strength to take part.

[quote=lotusgirl;35672]No one likes to be told that their religious belief is wrong or stupid. It is all in how it is presented.

I know I just want acceptance of my views. They may be different than his, but they are my truth and what I live by.[/quote]
I hear ya. sigh Believe me, I hear you. I want to be accepted as well. I’m slowly learning that [B]I can’t expect to be accepted[/B] or I will be disappointed over and over. My guru tells me to tear open my heart to the world knowing I will be hurt time and time again. But… it hurts :frowning:

#54

I think this illusion of the tolerance of Abrahamic religions needs to be further exposed.
You all know who Oprah Winfry is correct? One of the most powerful and influencial women in America. Recently, Oprah Winfrey has been decried as the most dangerous women in America and called a minion of Satan. Her crime? Her crime is that she says there are many ways to god.

This is one of the most famous and powerful preachers of America, who decries Oprah and then decries another pastor who made a similar statement. This preacher tells his audience, “I will have punched him out” to applause in the audience:

Look at how massive that audience is. Are they tolerant? Hell no.

This is the true face of Christianity.