Dark vs. Light?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#6

Thank you to everyone for responding. Some responses back your way…

Hubert: I think you’re right in saying that I just wasn’t prepared for the chanting. The actual “doing” of it wasn’t what I was objecting to but rather, I was doing something sort of alien to me and with no real understanding of what it was all about and why we were doing it in the first place. I like your suggestion of NOT doing it and see what happens. I’ll try this way first, since that seems so “me.” Thank you.

But then, Tubeseeker: I also agree with your suggestion to ask the instructor more questions about chanting. I’ll try this way next because I DO want to understand more. Thanks for your advice. I also picked up on your “music soothes the savage beast” description. I chose the name “moth” partly because it’s the name of a song I like. And also because it’s a short and sweet word, and from nature, and close to “mother,” and I like the fact it’s a creature attracted to the light but lives in the dark. It’s also not a beautiful and graceful butterfly…

Hello and thanks for your welcome, Pandara: When you said, “watch your written/spoken/typed words,” I assume I said something I probably shouldn’t have said, or I said it too harshly? Please know that I thought carefully about each word, although words are tricky to me. I’m a painter and live in a more emotional, and I guess “abstract” state. Images don’t need to be as precise. And in some important way, this is the crux of my dark/light thing…I’m not sure I want to TOTALLY eliminate the dark energy because I feel I need it to create. But by holding onto any of it at all makes me wonder if that means yoga is not going to be a path for me. Well, I guess I’m here to find out.

And Mirjana: Yes, I will read the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. I’m excited to find out what that is and was exactly the sort of specific direction I was looking for. I too, hope that I can make a clear and honest decision. I think I can do “honest” but “clear” seems to be the part in question. Thanks for your good wishes, too.

#7

Hi Moth,

You didn’t say anything too harshly etc, all i am saying is watch or observe the energy that flow from you in the form of words being typed/written or spoken, you can learn much from it, therefore go back to your post and learn from it, there is much to be learned. It is sort of a mirror and it reflects something back, look at the reflection, what do you see?:wink:

#8

Thanks, Pandara. That was interesting - looking at your words as a reflection of yourself.

In fact, that exercise is similar to what happens with painting. You put outside yourself what’s inside, then observe it, then accept what’s there, or change it. Continually. The blank white empty canvas (or post box in this case?) is always exciting and inviting, although some painters fear this part the most. So, I didn’t find it hard to “dive in” because this dark/light “thing” is what I’ve been scratching at, and what’s been on my mind, and why I chose the name moth, and why I wanted to post here in the first place. So…I guess I entered with an “agenda” and “laid it all out,” negatives first. I didn’t think (or care?) about how I came across but I did hope I wouldn’t offend.But maybe I should have waded in more gently? Considering my post now, I look like an elephant barging into a china shop. I’m standing there confused and blinking and wondering where I am. You asked what I see, and this is it. Sort of weird, I guess. In “real life,” I wouldn’t introduce myself this way, although it IS a natural and normal way to introduce myself via painting, and I do think of posting/painting as similar modes of expression in some ways.

So, after thinking about all of this, I’m feeling like painting might be the “holder” (for lack of a better word) of all or most of this darkness and somehow yoga needs to live alongside it. Hmmm…I think yoga is getting myself in a messier tangle. It just raises more questions.

#9

Don’t be too harsh on yourself. Your first post was a mature and sincere act.
It had the right questions. When the right questions are asked, the answer is just the next step away.

#10

Moth,

:wink: You are well on your way, keep it up!

#11

Just as it is easy for some to not look at the self, not do the work of peeling their onion, it is also easy to swing like a pendulum to the other end of the continuum; that of over-intellectualizing each and every thing ad-nauseum. We must watch the propensity for this as it is the white rather than black shadow, but shadow it is. An example of white shadow it when a guru is having inappropriate relationships with his/her disciples or students. The appearance is spiritual but the behavior is not. The behavior is cloaked in the meditation.

More to the point of the OP…
These patterns we have are deeply ingrained in us. The sanskrit term best suited to describe the condition might be samskara. These are the grooves of the record of our lives and the needle of our consciousness simply goes over and over the same things, day in and day out.

So it is quite natural for a student coming to yoga to have some very strong resistance to the practice, either in whole or in part. Students typically bring a tightly woven cocoon of belief system wrapped around them and it’s often very difficult to penetrate (for yoga teachers).

If the chanting conjures up the thought that it is bull then you have two options. The first is to work through this perception (which you may or may not be ready to do) and the second is to not chant or not participate in the “bull” part of the program. It is fine to not chant (until such a time as you understand it and want to bring it into your practice with joy rather than with battle). It is better to eat meat with glee than to be a miserable vegetarian.

We are all working through shadow self to one degree or another. Do not for a moment think the others in class, including me as the teacher, are not working through shadow. There can be no purification of the Self with knowing the Self and no knowing the Self without investigating the Self. So keep investigating.

#12

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;8177]We are all working through shadow self to one degree or another. Do not for a moment think the others in class, including me as the teacher, are not working through shadow. There can be no purification of the Self with knowing the Self and no knowing the Self without investigating the Self. So keep investigating.[/QUOTE]
be careful when you put the title of teacher next to yourself, attachment of the ego could arise :wink:

#13

…but…but…but…I have a few more questions before I end this “investigation.” (Ha! That makes me sound like a cop). But first, thank you Inner Athlete for the chanting advice and I have an update. Since there were only four of us in class this week, and we can all hear each other breathe, I guess I felt “yoga peer pressure” to join in, and ended up chanting. I’ll try again though - I’m determined NOT to chant! But I also just wanted to point out that this strong negative feeling I had to it was only once, in my first class, back in September. Although I still don’t understand what I’m doing, I do think that I’m warming up to the idea of it a little bit each week. However…the chanting is the least of my resistances.

Which leads me to my questions and toward the heart of this light/dark thing. I may be “over-intellectualizing” this too much, but that’s how my mind works. I don’t know how to just “be,” or keep my thoughts from being distracting or annoying. Which is one reason I turned to yoga. I thought it might offer me something more calming and positive (and it has), but I’d still like to see if I can describe this so that I can learn more. (And sorry about the length of all this pondering).

I assume “light” refers to something positive, harmonious, spiritual? A place you want to be, or get to, or achieve? Maybe “dark” refers to problems, neuroses, evil - things to move away from? I’m sure this is a too simplistic, uneducated explanation, but in any case, here’s my resistance: I like the dark and hate the light. In my mind, the “light” seems to be linked to spirtuality and spirituality is linked to religion and if I get too close to religion, it sends up all kinds of alerts and red flags and fears and prejudices and worries in me. That’s another big mess that I don’t even want to THINK about trying to untangle now. So with this “twisted” thinking, I feel like the light is the thing to avoid and the dark seems all familiar and warm and cozy. I hear what that sounds like (where’s my therapist?!) but if I could move toward the light without me being aware of the fact that I was going that way, then it might be okay to end up there. I guess I’m supposed to just practice and chant and breathe and go where I go and try not to worry that I’ll be burned by the light…

But until I go…Is there some sort of a middle place to be? How can you avoid evil or negative things anyway? Don’t they “seep” in or brush up against you on a daily basis? Doesn’t avoidance of the negative become another kind of constant vigilance? That sounds tiring as well. Is there ANYTHING good in the bad? From what I understand, art is created in the tension between good and bad (or dark and light). Without that tension, then where do I create? I’d be happy to silence this distracting, annoying voice (ego?) for yoga because that’s the thing bossing me around and exhausting me, but I won’t give up the creation of art for the practice of yoga. Do I have to choose?

#14

Moth,

you are constantly creating, this very post of yours creates. Your words are energy and I am wondering how much of what you experience is your own creations, have you tried to create and explore the other side (light) with your words and thoughts? You say things and they will become your reality, words are energy and as such need, just as you do, physical manifestation sooner or later. Therefore again watch what you create for yourself through your words. If you constantly create the dark you will become the darkness itself, if you create light you will become the light - this is in your hands or shall I say mouth and thoughts.

But then again why do you want to create such a divide in your life, such duality? Duality is based in fear, we see differences because we are fearful, how much fear do you (or want to) harbour and why? Ask yourself these questions and see where they may take you.

Have you tried to focus your energy on the now and becoming One and realising that you embody both good and evil, light and dark, make peace with it and realise it is just two sides of the same coin. Question is, how do you flip your coin and which side you want to be face up, through words, actions and thoughts? Can you stop seeing the differences and duality and just be One and realise that you are just One?

Spirituality versus religion - the difference between the two is vast and nowhere near each other. Religion = dogma, spirituality = freedom. Explore and you will find this out for yourself.

#15

Thanks, Pandara. “Words are energy”…I guess I don’t totally understand this. Do you mean if I say positive happy loving things, I will become those things? If that’s true, then I need to figure out how to deal with (practically speaking) the negative thoughts and words and images that are constantly seeping in. If light/dark are just different sides of the same coin, then I’ll also have to figure out how to keep the light side, face up, more often. About duality/fear…I don’t know if I “want” this divide, but it’s there. I will ask myself those fear questions in relation to this because that could help. The answer to the “Have you tried…Can you stop” questions is…no. I need to learn and understand (or experience) what “becoming One” means first. And, I’m very happy to hear that spirituality = freedom and it’s not related to religion. That’s makes the path a (much!) more desirable one.

This entire thread is just me coming to yoga curious and interested while wondering (and yes, worrying) about the level of commitment I can give to it. There are things in my life that I love that seem to be at odds with a yoga way of life and as long as I can take them all along with me, than yoga will work…I think. (and therefore, I am not?)

So, I’m all done with this dark/light business and this thread. Now I’m off to learn how to clean my mat…

#16

moth
think of one thing in this world that makes your heart feel warm. Imagine someones face that you love. Your heart has love
Now picture some of the bad things you may have done or said to that person, your heart did not do those things, it was your mind that did those things.

Live according to the mind
and you may enslave the heart
live according to the heart
and you may liberate the mind

A coin has three sides
seeker

#17

From Wendell Berry A Timbered Choir

To Long for what eternity fulfills
Is to forsake the light one has, or wills
To have, and go into the dark, to wait
What light may come–no light perhaps, the dark
Insinuates. And yet the dark conceals
All possibilities: thought, word, and light,
Air, water, earth, motion, and song, the arc
Of lives through light, eyesight, hope rest, and work–

And death, the narrow gate each one must pass
Alone, as some have gone past every guess
Into the woods by a path lost to all
Who look back, gone past light and sound of day
Into grief’s wordless catalogue of loss.
As the known life is given up, birdcall
Become the only language of the way,
The leaves all shine with sudden light, and stay.

Hmmm Does this speak to you?  

  Wendell Berry writes from an awesome perspective.  We can't have light without the dark.  We can find our steady comfortable seat with things that just maybe are neither light or dark, but illusion and imposition of values on stuff that simply is???  

One day I walked imagining
What work I might do here,
The place, once dark, made clear
By work and thought, my managing,
The world thus made more dear.
I walked and dreamed, the sun in clouds,
Dreamer and day at odds.

The world in its great mystery
Was hidden by my dream.
Today I make no claim;
I dream of what is here, the tree
Beside the falling stream,
The stone, the light upon the stone;
And day and dream are one.

Currently listening to: Mandala Offering
Choying Drolma & Steven Tibbetts
Eden: Global chill from six degrees

#18

I assume “light” refers to something positive, harmonious, spiritual? A place you want to be, or get to, or achieve? Maybe “dark” refers to problems, neuroses, evil - things to move away from? I’m sure this is a too simplistic, uneducated explanation, but in any case, here’s my resistance: I like the dark and hate the light. In my mind, the “light” seems to be linked to spirtuality and spirituality is linked to religion and if I get too close to religion, it sends up all kinds of alerts and red flags and fears and prejudices and worries in me. That’s another big mess that I don’t even want to THINK about trying to untangle now. So with this “twisted” thinking, I feel like the light is the thing to avoid and the dark seems all familiar and warm and cozy. I hear what that sounds like (where’s my therapist?!) but if I could move toward the light without me being aware of the fact that I was going that way, then it might be okay to end up there. I guess I’m supposed to just practice and chant and breathe and go where I go and try not to worry that I’ll be burned by the light…

Hello again,

I was just watching a movie “Yoga unveiled”. Here are two quotes from the movie:

“The difference between the religion and spirituality: religion is based on belief or having someone else do it for you. And spirituality is based on actual personal experience and effort. It has to be your effort to make a change.”

“The focus in Yoga wheather it is asana or pranayama or attitude or meditation, is to serve society. It is not to promote the system or style. If the style harms the person it is not good. So all the teachings are held to be done to respect the person who came to receive something. It is not the opposite where the person is coming to contribute to the style.”

#19

Who among you think that Dark or Light have to be either good or evil, but perhaps a reflection of each other. I don’t think that they have to vs. each other or be in opposition necessarily, but like the moon which waxes and wanes, shine degrees of light to simply unveil truth in the moment.

Yoga unveiled is worth watching, don’t you think?

#20

In the Bhagavad Gita chapter 9/19 says:
"I am heat. I am the one who holds back or sends rain. I am both immortality and death. I am also what is and what is not."
Swami Satchidananda explains that only the formless can be made into any form. Only the nameless can be given any names. Only the unconditioned can be brought into any condition. So it all depends upon our approach. The one who is above these dualities expresses as the dualities…

Yoga unveiled is certainly worth watching. Even if you are already familiar with a history and the essence of Yoga, inspires to hear yoga teachers who practice, live and teach yoga with a whole heart.

#21

I recommend reading THE PHILOSOPHY, PSYCHOLOGY AND PRACTICE OF YOGA by Swami Chidananda. Very useful, clear and informative of what is behind yoga as mental construct/experimental knowledge. In fact I’d recommend this to anyone who starts or does yoga practices.
It states very clearly what yoga really is - a serious endeavour in the realm of spirituality, something what adresses one’s whole life (and explains that is must be seen in much greater context as it is seen by materialist science), and such it is a dangerous journey where sticking to known paths is crucial in avoiding peril. It explaines (deducts ! ) the reason behind the first two steps, yama an niyama. These are explained on large, something I did not find anywhere else. Simply put it is pure gold.

For you [I]moth[/I], I think a jnanic approach would be best (the path of intellecual analysis), what builds on reasoning, discernment and it’s uncompromising application to one’s life. This is juts a suggestion, and should be taken as one. Discernment can start on this very question. What yoga path is most suitable for me ? What is my way ?

#22

I cannot resist quoting a bit …
[I]“In the context of the ancient Vedic culture of India, the knowledge that takes one forward and liberates one from the limited experience of body consciousness or the name and form consciousness, the ultimate knowledge that bestows upon one cosmic consciousness, is known as the higher knowledge or the greater knowledge, Para Vidya. This higher knowledge is clearly differentiated from the lower or the lesser knowledge, which pertains only to things, that are limited by time, space and causation. This latter knowledge of things that are limited within time and space is therefore finite and temporary. It is non-eternal. It is the lesser knowledge, and at best it can help you to have a comfortable life of physical conveniences, sense satisfaction, and temporary, partial desire-fulfilment. It has not the power—limited, finite things have not the power—to liberate you from fear and sorrow, to liberate you from all the limitations and imperfections that pertain to this limited life bound by birth and death, hunger and thirst, joy and sorrow, and the ever-changing experiences of sense contacts. Those who seek a knowledge that is beyond this relative knowledge are, therefore, the aspirants for Para Vidya or the higher knowledge which ultimately bestows upon you freedom from bondage, fear and sorrow. This higher knowledge bestows upon you ultimately the experience of your real identity, your true Self which is beyond the apparent, limited self. It ultimately confers upon you spiritual illumination and perfection, the peace that passeth understanding, freedom from all limitations and absolute bliss.”[/I]

So, here you have it. Yoga is not health care, yoga is not philosophy, yoga is not aquiring miraculous powers (or not just these). It is the death of the ego, the death of that man of the world.
Socrates, to turn to someone closer to our cultural heritage, said:
[I]“Ordinary people seem not to realize that those who really apply themselves in the right way to philosophy are directly and of their own accord preparing themselves for dying and death.” [/I]Further, he also said: “[I]We are in fact convinced that if we are ever to have pure knowledge of anything, we must get rid of the body and contemplate things by themselves with the soul by itself. It seems, to judge from the argument, that the wisdom which we desire and upon which we profess to have set our hearts will be attainable only when we are dead and not in our lifetime.”[/I]

And what is yoga if not learning to get rid of the body without actually throwing life away ?

Dark enough ? :slight_smile: (this is just one side of the coin though …)

#23

Inner struggle between your lower self/ego and higher self. Think of them as a devil and angel on each shoulder. Your ego doesn’t want you to grow Spiritually, infact it wants you to be as dark as you possibly can. Give it time, you’ll hear a more pleasant and positive voice. As you continue on in life with a more positive outlook, you will attract good things.

#24

Well, I guess I’m not quite done with this thread. So many coins. Wendell Berry and Swami C, unveiled yoga and jnanic approaches…all I can really say at this point is THANK YOU (once again). With so much information around, and confusion on where and how to begin and sparked by Pandara’s suggestion to look at my “spirituality fear,” I picked up Pema Chodron’s “The Places That Scare You.” How appropriate. I hadn’t heard of her, but I loved the book and will read more. She even used a moth analogy (!) when she said, “one of the tragic misunderstandings we have is mistaking suffering for happiness, like a moth flying into the flame. As we know, moths are not the only ones who will destroy themselves in order to find temporary relief.” Ha! She writes so clearly and practically and at the moment, I’m not sure I’m ready to be tackling anything more esoteric or intellectual than this. I don’t want to puzzle anything out and I’m not up for deciphering. Too much mind work on top of the chatter. My head will explode. But anyway, this next quote gets right to it - to the heart of what I’ve been trying to sort out.

“Compassion involves learning to relax and allow ourselves to move gently toward what scares us. The trick to doing this is to stay with emotional distress without tightening into aversion, to let fear soften us rather than harden us into resistance.” She also says we need to cultivate compassion by drawing from “the wholeness of our experience - our suffering, our empathy, as well as our cruelty and terror. It has to be this way. Compassion is not a relationship between the healer and the wounded. It’s a relationship between equals. Only when we know our own darkness well can we be present with the darkness of others. Compassion becomes real when we recognize our shared humanity.”

This is what I like about the darkness. This is what feels familiar, and good. This is the feeling that I was worrying I’d have to give up. But…I never labeled it as “compassion.” I didn’t know what it was, but I use it when I paint. I look at the darkness in all of us (outside of me) in order to understand, and I look at the darkness inside me in order to fix (or heal?). Painting is sort of a meditative activity and my style is figurative and this darkness appears in my subject matter. It’s been a long-time investigation and has helped me to understand, accept, embrace, and love. I’m not saying I always act compassionately (in fact not nearly enough!), but it’s in there stirring, and I’ll recognize this as something good in myself. I have to start somewhere! Pema also says, “we’re all a paradoxical bundle of rich potential that consists of both neurosis and wisdom.” I’ve got the neurosis covered, so yes, more wisdom now would be nice. I think I need to let this side go now, as much as I can. Time to face the light and move gently toward that. And oh boy…talk about scary…

#25

Nice… thanks for the Pema quotes.

Here is one more Wendell Berry for now.

Here where the world is being made,
No human hand required,
A man may come, somewhat afraid
Always, and somewhat tired,

For he comes ignorant and alone
From work and worry of
A human place, in soul and bone
The ache of human love.

He may come and be still, not go
Toward any chosen aim
Or stay for what he thinks is so.
Setting aside his claim

On all things fallen in his plight,
his mind may move with leaves,
Wind-shaken, in and out of light,
And live as the light lives,

And live as the Creation sings
In covert, two clear notes,
And waits; then two clear answerings
Come from more distant throats-

May live a while with light, shaking
In high leaves, or delayed
In halts of song, submit to making
The shape of what is made.

    It is my hope that you are feeling clear at this point in time.  The inflection that I am putting into your words, moth sounds like you are.  Whip up some wild and wonderful ART...  and move in and out of light... or in and out of dark... and find that steady comfortable place and be at ease... Sthiram Sukham Assanam

No matter what the story! Once upon a time I recall telling my twin daughters it was important to learn to not be nervous, about being nervous… Later in life I’m learning about rajasic, sattvic, and tamasic energy… It’s interesting language to me. Different ways of telling a story. This shifting of awareness. I hope you have felt supported while waiting for the space between the notes.