Despite all that I have tried I can not free my breath

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

People, come on, let him breath. It is easy to burden somene with our convictions.

Depression is hard to overcome. Those who try to give advise are in a very hard position, because all they can do is to share their conviction that there is a way out. But it is like standing on a river side, and saying “smile, you are free” to the drowning.
To make an example: let us picture depression as the opposite of being in love. Instead of being constantly high, it is being constantly low, and just as hard to overcome. Ever been in the position that you had to fight against love ? Fighting depression is just as hard. For the person suffering from it, it is seemingly impossible to break it.

What is the value of it ? Because for everything in life there is a good side, what usaually presents itself later.
One benefit is that any chronic pain (as depression can be described as such - pain is pain, regardless if it is physical or that of the soul) will make one try everything to get rid of it, thus seek, search, try things. You are doing well.

My opinion is that you need to survive it. No matter how long it takes. No matter how long it has been. Why ? Because, you do not have any other choice. Suicide rarely has oneself as a traget. Usually the targets are others, to show them how miserable I am, that it made me kill myself. It is a sign, a big red light to others - I am in trouble !
Don’t think I do not know it. I know it perfectly well. Sometimes it just seems the only way out. It is a temptation to stop. But it does not work, and it would be silly trying to be sure.

You see, I admit that you are in life threatening danger. You might actually die. So act accordingly.

#22

OM

Mato,

A little criticism seems to have done you good. You’re feeling your anger and frustration and seem to know exactly what you want. By the way, for someone from Greece, your English is excellent. As good as a native speaker in fact.

#23

i do empathise with how you may be feeling. I too have a long history of depression and have tried many things to feel better. I am about the start a yoga practice which feels like it could give me the discipline that i need in my life and boost my sense of self worth. One thing we both know is that there are absolutely no quick fixes and pills dont work. I really feel that a practice of yoga can help depression immensely. that is what i hear anyway and I know from the very little i have already done, that i feel much better.

#24

Mato –
I learned about releasing neck muscles and breathing from two good choral voice instructors (for the record, this was before yoga for me). If you want to ramp it up from there, find someone trained in Alexander Technique.
Good luck, buddy. You have it a lot worse than I ever did.
Feel free to let me/us know how it’s going.

#25

OK, now that I’ve given you that, I’d like to check in on three things that were useful for me but don’t seem to be on your list. I acknowledge you may have already tried them.

  1. diet. What you mentioned about diet didn’t include my counselor’s big recommendations – poultry, eggs, warm milk, and vegetable starches (baked potato is my favorite). 2) sleep. 3) thought and memory hygiene. This is the hardest one for me because I still have an inclination to sabotage it.

(This is where yoga has helped me the most. In asanas and in trying to meditate I’ve learned more about little parts of me resisting my efforts to be healthy. It is also where pills helped me the most – they showed me for a while what a healthy brain sounds like, and that I shouldn’t automatically trust my thoughts. After all, they are just thoughts.)

If any of this sound new or surprising I am happy to give you what I have, but that’s mostly Dr. Amen’s book.

#26

[quote=Techne;21415] thought and memory hygiene. This is the hardest one for me because I still have an inclination to sabotage it.
[/quote]
And for the most of us, after a lifetime of practice. This is just how things are, no need to dispair. A new start every day, every hour, every minute. It requires resilience, yes, but this is how resilience is built. You would not want to spend eternity in your current shape, do you ? There is always room for improvement. :wink:

It is also where pills helped me the most – they showed me for a while what a healthy brain sounds like, and that I shouldn’t automatically trust my thoughts. After all, they are just thoughts.

Dangerous these thoughts are. ([I]rolling yoda eyes[/I])

Thoughts are not just thoughts, they have the annoying tendency to carry themselves out. Do not underestimate the power of the dark side ! :slight_smile:

Heed this advice from your vanilla muffin boy

#27

Yes, I was imprecise – by ‘just thoughts’ I did not mean to indicate they are of low capacity for effect, but that they are not trustworthy. That is, they could be true, but in fact they fall short of that and are ‘just’ thoughts.
The point of thought and memory hygiene is that thoughts and memories are to be tended because not doing so has strong detrimental effect.
Thank you, Hubert.
(He, he – vanilla muffin? Who’d want one of those? I must post my pumpkin and zucchini granola bar recipe.)

#28

Another idea many people find incredibly helpful is understanding the benefits of the negative (and the negatives of the benefits). Dr John Demartini a chiropractor & world renowned self-development guru, is a huge resource on finding the natural balance of the universe through working with positives and negatives. His Demartini method is a tool you can work with. He runs workshops all over the world called The Breakthrough Experience and there is a book on the subject. See - http://drjohndemartini.stores.yahoo.net/books.html

#29

I apologize for not replying for a while now. Initially I was subscribed to this thread and was notified by email every time someone posted a reply but then for some reason I stopped receiving notifications.

There is one thing I would like to further discuss and that is my stiff shoulders and neck. In fact my shoulders are rounded permanently and to “open up” and stand normally requires so much energy from me that I run out of breath within minutes. I have spent so much time in front of the pc. I recall years and years of suffering in painful sitting postures and just putting up with it. When I try to push my shoulders back, these two bones at the frontal base of my neck jump out and the skin around them seems very stretched. One thing I can tell you is that I have never been able to do stitting meditation properly because it is always too difficult for me to sit up straight like I should.

Techne I read a bit into the Alexander Technique. It says the creator also had a problem with hoarseness of voice, which is a problem for me as well. This is not something I just now realise. I have been worrying over the hoarseness of my voice for years now.

Do you guys think my emotional stagnation is related to all that? I think there is a good chance it is.

#30

Looks like I was “right on” in my firts post :wink: and I do belive that your posture has a lot to do with your emotional stagnation.

It took me a while to be able to sit comfortably in meditation. It doesn’t only come from the shoulder opening but also from the position of the sacrum when sitting down. I say when you sit in a chair your probably slipping down (lying) in the chair instead of arching your back and sticking your butt out? am I right?

#31

[QUOTE=Mato;21283]To those who critisize my attitude I need to defend myself and say that the amount of psychological pressure I had to put up in my teens (with the fucking panick attacks haunting me everytime I drove the car in the highway to go watch alone some crappy movie in the multiplex) and early 20s (I’m 25 now) was beyond comprehension. Nevermind if there was an actual reason for feeling the way I did, I just did. I practically lived like a hermit and a spartan too between the ages 21-24 because the pills wouldn’t work and all I could think of was that I must try and improve things and that suicide is not the answer. For those who have not been there in this nightmarish existense were you DO jog everyday and fake-smile watching the sunlight pour in your face (because that’s what a depressed person should do) and eat your macrobiotics and take your pills and do your deep breathing and your yoga and your meditation and yet still your body and mind do not respond AT ALL to all this and you have to watch your peers being happy and out there living their lifes with their friends, while you have to starve yourself and do cold showers in the middle of the winter to “man up” (because people “out there” face “real problems”(stop being a pussy Dimitri watch wrong with you? you have it all!)), with no tv, or radio, or cellphone, or magazines, just me and this fucking empty house my father rented for me next to the sea and still yet all my mind fed me was death and embarassment and guilt because I’m I’m a pussy, or a psycho or I’m not not trying enough or maybe I ate too much olive oil (one teaspoon. god I don’t have the heart to enlist all the starvation inducing things I tried in the process of “purifying my body”), so then if you haven’t been there where despite you dearest efforts for years and years you hate yourself for being embarassed (and your heart goes crazy) when you talk even to the person at the counter in the super market and you feel like god has forsaken you and the universe is just this dark and cold and empty wasteland (which it so essentialy is) then please at list don’t be bullish.

I have read about and tried more than you can imagine and sure enough maybe that has made me cynical but I am tired of all failures and dissapointments. And so this is why I came here, after finally having narrowed down what my problem seems to be, asking for a targeted solution, something closer to what jlg mentions (btw the posture thing is true my neck is very very stiff and my shoulders are rounded because in the process of trying all those things I also spent a hell of a lot of time in front of the pc (not that much anymore thought)[/QUOTE]

Sadly, I do know what you mean. I to had a terrible childhood. Tried to commit suicide when I was 15. Survived although I didn’t want to at the time. Put on a fake face so I wouldn’t be committed so I could blend in and people won’t know what is really going on inside. I had no support system at home abusive father and absent mother.

Went through the motions of life. Abused drugs and alcohol. Carried so much pain in my body.

I’m thirty eight now and only in the last few years I have started feeling whole, not saying I don’t have bad moments. I’m human. It just took that long, the birth of my daughter, reading Eckart Tolle, Dr. Wayne Dyer, practicing yoga. That is what started helping me change my life. Change my way of being and thinking. I realized I have to own it, it’s my life, my journey.

The only place I’m going with this is - your post sounds like you are aware. You are not to far gone since you asked for help. I hope you find your way. I hope you find the peace that you are looking for.

#32

[QUOTE=jlg;21637]I say when you sit in a chair your probably slipping down (lying) in the chair instead of arching your back and sticking your butt out? am I right?[/QUOTE]

Yes you are right, I’ve always had people (teachers, aunts, peers) telling me to sit up propely and not slouch. I just do not know what to do with this now. It is not easy to reverse such a problem. To make things worse, I have to spent the next 9 months servicing the Greek army which is compulsory. I avoided this for as long as I could but now I am out of time and have to show up in Sparta at August 10. Who knows it might not be a complete and total waste of time and I might learn a thing or two over there, but doing extravagant, flamboyand yoga postures is out of question.

LaLuz

I think our problems are overlapping in certain areas and thus I can sympathise but it seems to me you actually had it worse than me. I mean you had actual problems during your childhood, a sort of family drama going on that would have gotten to pretty much anyone, emotionally healthy or not. Me, I in fact had a great childhood, but it is all downwards from there. I did not have real external problems, it is just the way my body works. Which is why I have never fallen for drugs or alcohol - having a good childhood has given me some basic groundwork to draw hope from. I know what it is like to feel really, really good, I used to be like that all the time as child and I just don’t know what else to do with my life if I don’t have that feeling. Nothing else seems to be worth the effort and everything I used to enjoy has ceased being enjoyable.

#33

[QUOTE=Mato;21634] In fact my shoulders are rounded permanently…
[/QUOTE]

Why do you believe that this condition is permanent? Unless there is something wrong with your bones, my guess is that the condition could be corrected by strengthening the muscles in the back. Lat pulldowns behind the neck or pullups behind the neck, and nutrition geared toward muscle growth should do the trick. I would join a gym and talk to a personal trainer.

#34

[quote=Mato;21087] I have tried everything. Macrobiotics, meditation, medication, jogging, breathing, postures, I have tried everything I could think of to inumerable variations.
[/quote]

You could try engaging with the full spectrum of yoga practices.

Try this website http://www.aypsite.org/

They teach a full-scope system of yoga called AYP that covers highly effective and safe practices leading eventually to a complete flowering of consciousness and , for want of a better term,enlightenement.No stone is left unturned,the aim being to fully illuminate all layers of self…

This done through finding your own inner guru achevied primarily through two practices- Deep Meditation and Spinal breathinig pranayama (optimisations without any frilly superfluous nonsense added on & taken respectively from trasscendental meditation and the kriya yoga tradition- so you see you have heavyweight practices that work- i.e get results,this is science- that of self trans-morph-ation),their dynamic duo.

I offer you meat , i.e actual yoga practices, rather than just words.

Intending a stable Global awakeinng, the alleviation of the suffering of ALL of us(yuour suffering is my suffering), and Global enlightening (the fruits of a recession )

No excuses now!

Act today(read the first lesson on that site- lesson 13- found under the Main Lessons section; it explains the simple procedure utilized in the powerful practice they have opver there called Deep meditation)What are you waiting for?

Best of luck!

#35

CORE 789 -

I just glanced at the website. Looks like a good one I will go through when I have more time. Thanks for posting it!

#36

You are very welcome ,LaLuz.

I sincerely hope that link/post helps anyone else out there.I have posted that link before with the aspiration it will be as helpful to anyone else as i haas been for me.I do it because i know there are others out there suffering who deserve AYP as much anyone else.AYP is open source so you don’t need to be part of any inner sanctum to know and learn the practices.Some of these practices were hitherto secretive and protected from the public domain in years gone by becuas it was feared the modern populace could’nt handle the truth and the power.( like that saying, i think it’s the bible’ don’t throw pearls before swine’…well the fact is we are all in this together and made off the same stuff,come from the same source etc, and the sooner we ,humanity,all wake up to this,with freely and openly-shared effective spitutal practices, the quicker we will all beome collectively abit more enilghtened…take for example the kriya yoga tradition that i’d imagine may involve alittle inititation by someone deeemed to teach XYZ practice…the times they-are-a changing)

Read the lessons.They are very inspiring,written by an anoymous master…They fuel you with what in AYP they call 'bhakti '-what we need to engage in our daily sadhana,spiritual practice.

Effective spiritual practices are provided as is an effective spiritual community to provide support as and when you need it.

I can relate to the troubled feeling folk relate to in this thread, yours and mato. They may have adifferent genesis but it can be frustrating and at times a little tricky enough trying to navigate into a place of better health and more light and peace.

i’m in the same age ballpark as yourself,35 and have had certain degree of struggle and hardship in my life myself even after coming off of heroin and taking up yoga ( i make no bones about it including suicidl notions etc) so it’s good to hear that my posts are useful and getting out there. Cool!!

peace & love

#37

Asuri

I think you might be right. I will give it another shot at trying to strengthen my back. It seems to be the best thing I can do atm. I hope it works but I am skeptical. I have been lusting for that inner change for so long. The idea of being free to explore myself via meditation without all that burden in my chest is actually a very exciting prospect for me, like a trip of some sort. I feel like I am ready for this, my mind is ready for this and that makes me glad for all the hardship I had to endure. I would have never searched into this whole spiritual side of life to such an emphatic depth otherwise. I would still be stuck with the Christian Orthodox teachings I learned as a child, ie as long as I wear a cross around my neck and show up for Easter in church I’m going to “paradise”.

core789

Can you honestly say that after all this search you have found light at the other end of the tunnel? Do you nowadays feel unequivocally, no sortcomings that light in your spirit? The concept of nirvana and enlightenment is one of tremendous interest to me. I also like to bring a bit of the kabbalah ideas into my picture. But it is impossible for me to search any deeper into this as long as my spirit remains locked down into this problematic body where I can never feel relaxed and breath with contentment.

Thank you for the link, like LaLuz says, it [I]does[/I] seem interesting and I will be searching into it.

#38

Hi Mato,

No i can’t say i am enlightened yet.
But i would’nt rule out the posssiblity either.
Now i have effective tools :slight_smile:

About your muscles- it is , IMV, usually tight muscles rather than weak muscles causing most muscoluskeltal complaints.In some ways i see this then as a bit of a myth(that muscles usualy need strengthened).Muscle strength can be adress through excercise and weight-lifting,and asana. Muscle tonus can be altered throuogh we-wiring , or making a series of subtle changes in the nervous system, like evrything ,over time- pranayama & meditation- stilling relaxed practices are useful in this regard,and can be combined with gentle asana, once shifts start occuring.

The origin of tight muscles is found in brain-level programming- i.e the nervous system or the sensory-motor cortex, to be precise. Took me a few years to arrive at this conclusion.

Now Most things in life of value come about usually not without self-effort (and attached timescales) - rising to your profession, building a family, saving for a hooliday, quittiing smack/opiates/methadone ( took me ten years). It is only when you sort out your priorities and aspirations , YOU,that you can start getting anywhere.

I never said i was enlightenend
Though i’ve got a rough idea what that is like, and experienced glimpses about 3 years ago… hence my interest…

But it is impossible for me to search any deeper into this as long as my spirit remains locked down into this problematic body where I can never feel relaxed and breath with contentment.
The body/mind /spirit matirx is all connected.

Try ‘deep meditation’- it reveal this truth indeed quite well. as i say i’m getting good results from it and i am very happy with my progress and the tools&support base(i.e webssite) i’m using.Now God does’nt like a quitter does he? Life is a gift so we make the most of it. I’ve only just rolled my sleeves out.Some folk have studied yoga for decades & closely with spiritual masters. I am grateful for every oppoortunity i get and for all those who continue to inspire and deepen my appreciation of yoga, it’s vastness and it’s unlimited potential. Did sivananda or yogananda or osho got disheartened?- probably but it also probably never lasted forever…

Again it boils down to having effective tools for the job.As i say AYP is an effective toolbox if you give it a chance.The rest is your own bhakti,desire,hunger for liberation through daily practice.

If you like scientifc explanations or answers ,not pseudo religious ones, to some of your own practice issues and the neural-spiritual processes involved in self-transformation ,then read those lesssons and they may resonate with you and inspire.Real wisdom is acquired through experience. That is why just ideas like kaballah wisdom won’t be enough. In AYP it’s called self-inquiry- that is their branch of jnana yoga( the one ramakrishna practised) But on it’s own it is liable to be mere fanciful metaphysical indulgence for some and confusing or a conceptual head-ache formany others.That is why AYP emphasises an integrated whole practice that adresses the interconnectedness of all the limbs and all the branches, disciplines and whatever mystical outlook you wwish to subscribe to.Then we have vastly more effective sadhana- practice. Yoga is about the science of cause and effect, although Hindus call it karma( which is the same more or less, a good descrription-‘you sow what you reap’, you define yourself by your actions,that is why stillness is good,and stillness in action and action in stillness,dynamic stillness,- acheviable through Deep Meditaiton-one intitates a vibration through a silent mantra w-this ha the effect of lodging impurites and loosening and releasing< karmic>obstructions found deep within the nervous system)

I am not enlightened. But i have some prior experience.I’ve just had to kind of start again,though i don’t see it this way,as there is no destination and it is all growth potential anyway.

I like the light , i know it’s good and i want it,especially a whole lot more of it.

#39

I don’t want to Hijack Mato’s thread but I want to say to Core that I am always amazed at Yoga’s ability to make me feel balanced, whole, quites my mind and helps me think better among many other things. I have been practicing for a year and although I didn’t feel the results with the first class , it took a little time. I feel it has helped me tremendously and when I tell my friends they just look at me with a blank stare. I love that this forum exists.

#40

[QUOTE=Mato;21730]Asuri

I think you might be right. I will give it another shot at trying to strengthen my back. It seems to be the best thing I can do atm. I hope it works but I am skeptical. I have been lusting for that inner change for so long. The idea of being free to explore myself via meditation without all that burden in my chest is actually a very exciting prospect for me, like a trip of some sort. I feel like I am ready for this, my mind is ready for this and that makes me glad for all the hardship I had to endure. I would have never searched into this whole spiritual side of life to such an emphatic depth otherwise. I would still be stuck with the Christian Orthodox teachings I learned as a child, ie as long as I wear a cross around my neck and show up for Easter in church I’m going to “paradise”.

[/QUOTE]

Skepticism is good, because there’s a lot of b.s. out there. I’m not inclined to discuss your internal struggles. But the teaching of Buddhism comes to mind, that a human life is a precious opportunity and not to be wasted. Life is a marathon, not a sprint. I’m afraid you have many more years of hardship to look forward to. I say this not to discourage you but to encourage you to toughen up. Because unless you want to spend it in an ashram, your life is going to be tough. Everybody’s life is tough. There is no need to impose hardship on yourself, because there’s plenty imposed from the outside. To a large extent our character is determined by how we deal with adversity in life. Overcoming it is good, shrinking from it is bad.

Nourish your body, don’t starve it. No amount of meditation is going to improve your posture, unless your meditation consists of a determined effort over a long period of time to build the muscle strength that good posture requires.