Difficult Asanas and Working Through Pain

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

"Instruction in pranayama can begin after one has learned the asanas well and can practice them with ease (Jois 2002 23). “Pranayama means taking in the subtle power of the vital wind through rechaka [exhalation], puraka [inhalation], and kumbhaka [breath retention]. Only these kriyas, practiced in conjunction with the three bandhas [muscle contractions, or locks] and in accordance with the rules, can be called pranayama” (Jois 2002 23). The three bandhas are “mula bandha, uddiyana bandha, and jalandhara bandha, and they should be performed while practicing asana and the like” (Jois 2002 23). “When mula bandha is perfect, mind control is automatic” (“Ashtanga Yoga”). “In this way did Patanjali start Yoga. By using mulabandha and by controlling the mind, he gradually gained knowledge of Yoga” (Jois "

This is what Patthabi Jois was saying in 2002

#22

Well then, I suppose we have a difference of opinion, because I do consider Ujjayi pranayama, and my source is the Yoga Kundalini Upanishad. As far as I can see, the only thing that is not taught in the Ashtanga early lessons is kumbhaka [retention]. I noticed that Nicki Doane, in her video made a point of repeatedly saying “keep breathing”. So if you want to get technical and say its not pranayama because there’s no kumbhaka, I’l give you that much. I suppose I’m not a follower of Pattabi’s grandson, because as far as I’m concerned, it’s unreasonable to ask people to wait until they’re proficient in second series to start pranayama. Most people will never make it through second series. I think teachers hype pranayama to get fees from the gullible.

#23

Asuri , I think breathing is always useful during Asana practise :smiley: so yes that instruction is useful , although I have never had a student die from stopping the breath .
I have not overly expressed my opinion I am just repeating and given documentary evidence of what the
guru of this method has said( nicki doanes root teacher ) and the now leader of this method advises .
I doubt that this is to do with money , as this has been taught since before yoga became popular and in the ashtanga system there are few teachers that were taught pranayama by Patthabi jois . To repeat myself Iyengars teacher would not teach him Pranayama in early 1940.s and if you see his film of 1938 , freely available on youtube he could outwardly do the wacky postures.
Ujjayi is breathing method , not strictly pranayama ,the breathing method that you engage when you start a practise of pranayama . Why dont you e-mail nicki Doane to ask her about it ?
Peace

#24

Why dont you e-mail nicki Doane to ask her about it ?

Because she’s a high profile teacher who travels the world teaching yoga and I doubt that she would answer. Since you are a fellow Ashtanga guy, why don’t [I]you[/I] email her? Maybe you can get her to come on the forum and back you up. I don’t get what all the mystery is about in their tradition, since information on pranayama is widely available. In the scheme of Patanjali’s eight limbs, it’s not that high in the hierarchy. Does Ashtanga also say that you can’t do pratyaya or dharana or dhyana?

#25

@newbieyoga

I kind of agree with that. I’m finding that as I practice more I have an urge to do more.

#26

Does Ashtanga also say that you can’t do pratyaya

I meant pratyahara.

#27

Im sure that she would resond to a genuine enquiry , i dont feel the need to ask her because I know what her system of yoga says. I am not an ashtanga vinyasa practitioner , I did practise mysore style yoga in the 90s ,
I was then and am now a Iyengar teacher , I stopped ashtanga vinyasa because it wasnt helping that I was mixing styles , particuarly when it came to teaching .
Although once a month I do practise with a senior teacher , my main teacher is not in any school , freelance if you like , one of his fortes is pranayama , so im not a purist , and could be seen to be a bit of rebel , but I do respect the teachers who have shared these practises with us.
I have over the years heard of people and have met people who have had serious problems mainly mental through the practise of pranayama , and have
therefore taken seriously the advice of very experienced teachers , gurus .
My buddhist teacher who spent many years in india was nearly drowned by his fellow monk who used to get enraged because of overdoing pranayama .
They were having a discussion while bathing in the river and things got out of hand .
There is no problem if you want to do pranayama as some one said the air is free , no one is stopping us, but the warnings are there, and the advice is to practise under the guidance of an adept and all the books I have on pranayama say it should be practised under guidance . Im sure there are books on lots of things we wouldnt feel safe with, misquoting or quoting inner athelete there are books on brain surgery but Im not going to try it out especially on myself , Im sure he said something like that :smiley:
nobody as far as im aware has said you cant do pratyhara , dhyana , or samhadi but these are sates that arise for the few, and there are other aspects of the practise that can be mastered first to create the conditions for these states to arise , you dont do them or not do them
, one can slip into dhyana in nature without ever having practised asana etc , and I doubt many folk can sustain pratyhara for long especially if they are living in the world , nevermind dhyana or samhadi.
My pranayama teacher tells a story of running a workshop in europe they had done a lot of pranayama , the lady who was hosting the workshop gave him a lift back to where he was staying , she was driving along chatting merrilly , when he looked up and saw a car bearing down on them , the cars managed to stop within inches of each other , she was so spaced that she had been driving up a one way street completely oblivious . He is now more careful about sharing pranayama in the city and tends to lead retreats in nature nowadays.

" Pranayama is thus the science of breath . It is the hub round which the wheel of life revolves . As lions elephants and tigers are tamed very slowly and cautiously , so should prana be brought under control very slowly in gradation measured according to ones capacity and physical limitations. otherwise it will kill the practitioner .
Hatha yoga pradipika (chapter 2 verse 6 )
jai ma

#28

I meant pratyahara too :smiley:

#29

[QUOTE=Asuri;45017]

So I guess my question is twofold:
[ol]
[li]What advanced or difficult poses do you do and why do you do them?
[/li][li]What is your practice regarding working through pain?
[/li][/ol][/QUOTE]

When I started asana practice, I had problems with all balancing and triangle, I would fall all over the room. Later I realised that I need to relax in to balance…later I realized how to actually relax the standing leg.

Pashimotanassana was coming well, and taught me to breath in to the stretchy good pain.

Can not do any arms bearing balance, since my shoulder hurts and this is a bad pain, Im not going to breath through that…

#30

@Charliedharma

While I do not find these anecdotes to be very convincing, I’m sure there are good reasons for the precautions, so I will consider myself to be admonished for encouraging a newbie to try pranayama. I want to deal with something else that you wrote.

nobody as far as im aware has said you cant do pratyhara , dhyana , or samhadi but these are sates that arise for the few, and there are other aspects of the practise that can be mastered first to create the conditions for these states to arise , you dont do them or not do them

I’ve heard this before from some other apparently experienced and knowledgeable yogis, but based on my research I do not believe this to be the case. Based on my research, which isn’t even all that extensive (yet), I believe that pratyahara, dharana, dhyana, and samadhi are practices, or rather, categories of practices. There are different variations and techniques for each. They can be taught, and learned.

#31

@CityMonk

It sounds like you hurt your shoulder somehow. ?

#32

hello Asuri , Im not sure what you mean when you say that these anecdotes are not convincing . I dont think I was admonishing you , but if you want to be admonished then go to your room , and come back when you have right view;)

With regard to if one can be taught the sates of dhyana and samahdi , I agree that one can be taught techniques , and be given indications , of what these states may taste like look like and all the other senses , and Ashtanga yoga as in eight limbs can help to create the conditions for these states to arise , as can many other tools methods . As you stated in your op you practise some asana to help get in a place where meditation arises , of course pranayama is great for this too , turning the senses inward and bringing them to a place of one pointedness .
I suppose what i mean is that the states will arise or not , perhaps with the help of a guru , through ones own effort or none effort, and with grace. Although after over many years of meditation practises (I developed and took up meditation before yoga asana etc) some times I feel or have come to a place where it is better for me to drop techniques , teachings , stop practising and just be awareness , ie the technique is involving me doing something , and that may be getting in the way , taking me away from my true nature . Of course im at the moment being drawn to people who share this not doing , so i still feel the need to attend retreats and read books , listen to satsangs from such people to keep on doing ,I guess this is my dharma and where I am at , but there is a joy and energetic radiance from being in the real or virtual company of these beings. Sometimes even on this forum there is a sharing , and joy arises within me , often more unskillful states may arise:o
I thank profoundly all the teachers who have shone some light on me or provoked that inner light . I also acknowledge that I have heard different teachings at different times ie seemingly conflicting teachings and its all fine , the Paradoxes , gotta love them.

#33

Im not sure what you mean when you say that these anecdotes are not convincing

In both cases the bad results can easily be explained by other factors, and the cause and effect relation of pranayama to the result is not at all definite. Lots of people do pranayama and do not get enraged, so the facts the the offending monk was overdoing pranayama and getting enraged both point to some kind of mental imbalance. In the case of the woman driving the car, you indicated that she was chatting away as she was driving, and it seems clear that the cause of the near accident was that she was paying more attention to her talking than to her driving. I see no reason to connect the pranayama to her lack of attention. In my view, pranayama done properly should have exactly the opposite effect, i.e. one should come away with a heightened sense of awareness. Blaming these things on doing pranayama is avoiding dealing with the real problem.

#34

I suppose what i mean is that the states will arise or not , perhaps with the help of a guru , through ones own effort or none effort, and with grace. Although after over many years of meditation practises (I developed and took up meditation before yoga asana etc) some times I feel or have come to a place where it is better for me to drop techniques , teachings , stop practising and just be awareness , ie the technique is involving me doing something , and that may be getting in the way , taking me away from my true nature

In my experience, “states” do not arise without effort. Without effort, the mind wanders where it will. The technique of dropping all techniques sounds like dzogchen to me. But if you sit in meditation, you are doing something. The question is, what exactly are you doing, or what should you be doing? There are things that can be done, which can move you through the various stages of yoga, depending on how well you learn and apply the techniques.

We seem to have wandered very far from the original topic.

#35

I agree we have have wandered away from the topic and I feel I have said all I would like to say. Peace brother or sister

#36

Peace brother or sister

What is that supposed to mean?

#37

nondoing to the end = liberation.

Doing to the end = Worldy Pursuits.

Can I get an AMEN?

#38

peace , om shanti , peace be upon you , it is a gesture of friendliness and goodwill.

brother or sister because although i assume you are male , it feels energetically that you are ,if you are a lady , I thought I would cover two of the most likely possibilities ie you that are male or female .

#39

To Scales
AMEN

#40

OK, I’m done here (I hope). Why don’t you guys go not-do some yoga and get liberated.