Dogma free Yoga

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34284]Consensus does not make truth.

If a person calls the earth flat, so does his friends, then the whole community this is not going to change the fact that the earth is not flat. Similarly, it does not matter how many people call Yoga an exercise system, it is not going to change the fact that Yoga is a Hindu science of self-realization. The very meaning is embedded in the word “Yoga” itself.[/QUOTE]

Yes, thanks. I’ve established that your a ‘purist’. No need to elaborate on that.

#22

Bare with me here a minute because to be entirely honest I am more of a martial artist than a yoga practitioner and the martial arts I trained and have trained are traditional, Jujutsu, Tae Kwon Do (Pre-Olympic), Shaolin, Taijiquan, Xingyiquan to name a few. However I would not call myself a purist, I do call myself a traditionalist but I have absolutely noth9ing against any other style of Martial Arts be it Sanshou, MMA, Krav Maga, etc.

I think the problem arises when we look at things eastern, such as martial arts, with a western view which is to compartmentalize it and/or categorize those things that make up a martial art.

OK this is Taoist or Buddhist and this is martial and this is spiritual when in fact from the eastern view it is all intrinsic, there are no categories it just is what it is. There is no need to be a Chan Buddhist to train Shaolinquan, there is no need to be a Taoist to train Baguazhang or Taijiquan, there is no need to be Zen Buddhist to train Judo or Jujutsu and there is really no need to practice Shinto to train Sumo or any other Japanese martial art. However understanding the culture and philosophy from which it comes does help. Trying to understand it based on where it comes from and not changing it to something you understand because it is easier is also a good thing and just plain going to go a whole lot further in understanding and application of the art you train than changing it to something it was never meant to be.

But this is not to say there are Purists (as the OP posted), I would call them snobs of whatever art they train. That put themselves on some high pedestal demanding you listen to them because “They know” I have seen this a lot in Internal Chinese Martial Arts (Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Liu He Ba Fa – not so much Xingyiquan). And they are basing this they know on old, unsubstantiated stories and propaganda that cannot be historically proven and in many cases alth9ugth taken as fact by many; it can easily be dismissed as myth.

Now to Yoga, I am by far not as qualified to discuss yoga as I am in discussing martial arts but I am seeing a lot of fairly hostile posts (which surprises me based on my limited understanding of Yoga) here lately that, IMO, amount to much the same problem, we are compartmentalizing yoga (ok not so much the based on myth bits) but some of it is due to snobbery IMO.

Does yoga have its origins within Hinduism and the answer to that is yes. Does one have to be a Hindu to properly train yoga and the answer to that is no. I have not trained yoga much but what I have trained is Kripalu, Power Yoga and now I am training what the teacher calls Hatha but she has a rather strong background in Integral and Iyengar. I have known her for years and I watched the change in her from the days I knew her as a martial artist up until the present where she is a Yoga Therapist and teacher (no longer a martial artist) she is happier, healthier and has this incredibly spiritual view and feeling about her. She did study Hindu writings and language to do so as well. However she is Chinese and not Hindu, I am guessing more likely atheist. However I have seen her gain great benefit from Yoga, more so than she did from the martial arts she once trained that were from her own culture.

So this is a long way around to saying answering the OP with I do believe she is a contemporary Yoga person who is using her Yoga for health, fitness and spirituality. Any practice I do from yoga I have discovered is more based in my martial arts and it is more for physical fitness and flexibility but then all I am really doing is repetitive Sun Salutations.

Just my 2 cents

#23

Just my 2 cents

This is another one of those self-denying phrases that limit us. What you said made a lot of sense, a lot more sense than what others said. Yes, exactly Yoga is what it is. It cannot be comparmentalized as you say and fragmented just because Westerners want to modify it. It is a complete system and can only be accepted as it is.

I have no desire to start Taijiquan and modify it. If I elect to train in it, I will surrender to the theory and practice and aim to master it. The problem is Western people lack this kind of humility that Eastern people have(the whole notion of surrender is foreign to them) and rather than accepting Eastern systems as they are, they want to reinterpret them, modify them, combine them with other things. The main reason behind this is Western people do not understand what “being” is. They do not understand that being is just isness and if you analyse being(compartmentalize as you say) then you destroy being.

#24

Hi YogiAdam!

Great insight you’ve come to! Yoga is all about dropping the ego, so it serves us best when we honour the body and our “inner voice” that tells us what’s best for us. If yoga helps you meditate and give to yourself and that makes you feel GOOD, then fabulous! That’s yoga for YOU. Yoga can be different for everybody…and all those differences are equally valuable.

For me, I use yoga to scratch me “teaching itch”. I love to teach and help people. I also use yoga to get in touch with my body and get grounded and, like you, calm that chatter in my mind.

Also, consider that Yoga is what happens outside the yoga room, in your every-day interactions with the rest of the world. For example, if you learn to relax while doing a particularly challenging pose, you can take that with you afterward by learning to relax (using the breath, a mantra, etc) while you’re faced with a challenge that pushes you outside your naturally peaceful self (being cut off in traffic, someone talking to you harshly, etc.)

If we only keep what we learn while doing the poses inside the yoga room, then yoga is not as functional as it could be. Another example: if someone is peaceful, respectful, and compassionate toward themselves and others in the yoga studio, then gives someone the finger when she’s cut off in traffic, that’s not living a “yogic lifestyle” and all that she experienced in the class is not serving her on a larger scale.

Have a wonderful, blissful day!

Laural Strang

#25

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34369]This is another one of those self-denying phrases that limit us. What you said made a lot of sense, a lot more sense than what others said. Yes, exactly Yoga is what it is. It cannot be comparmentalized as you say and fragmented just because Westerners want to modify it. It is a complete system and can only be accepted as it is.[/QUOTE]

Nothing self denying about it, it is just a term to say in my opinion which is based on my experience, therefore not limiting at all. It is saying this is what I have learned.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34369]
The problem is Western people lack this kind of humility that Eastern people have (the whole notion of surrender is foreign to them) [/QUOTE]

This is a generalization and nothing good can come from it. No understanding, learning or middle ground can be found in the constant use of generalizations

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34369]
and rather than accepting Eastern systems as they are, they want to reinterpret them, modify them, combine them with other things. The main reason behind this is Western people do not understand what “being” is. They do not understand that being is just isness and if you analyse being(compartmentalize as you say) then you destroy being.[/QUOTE]

And this, based on your previous generalization gives one the opportunity to dismiss your whole argument. Basically you are saying the same thing about westerners that the British Empire said of Indians during the life of Gandhi (which was based on Social Darwinism) and to use a western phrase, “Two wrongs do not make a right”. Not all westerners are created equal nor are they all from the same country based on terminology such as “Eastern Systems”

Westerner is a term that can include all of Europe, Canada, South America, Central America, Mexico and the United States and I do believe much of Russia as well.

But I will agree that many from the west try and change things to something they understand rather than try and understand what they are learning when it comes to things from the East. But then this is based, IMO, more on philosophical and cultural differences and it is better to try and understand those differences and learn from them than to continually point at them and say they are wrong. This sets up confrontation not understanding and shuts off leaning.

#26

Nothing self denying about it, it is just a term to say in my opinion which is based on my experience, therefore not limiting at all. It is saying this is what I have learned.

It is insidiously self-denying. Why call the points you are making a worthless 2 cents worth? You cannot even buy a can of coke with 2 cents. You should have more confidence in what you say. My points are not 2 cents, they are bloody 24 carat gold :smiley:

This is a generalization and nothing good can come from it. No understanding, learning or middle ground can be found in the constant use of generalizations

The word East and West itself is a generalization. I just made another generalization that says something is generally true of the East and the West.

But I will agree that many from the west try and change things to something they understand rather than try and understand what they are learning when it comes to things from the East. But then this is based, IMO, more on philosophical and cultural differences and it is better to try and understand those differences and learn from them than to continually point at them and say they are wrong. This sets up confrontation not understanding and shuts off leaning.

We Hindus are not politically correct at all and nor were our ancestors. Political correctness is a modern disease born out of postmodernist thinking. Of course there are rights and wrongs. What you call philosophical differences is what we call the differences between right and wrong.

It is blatantly clear to us Western philosophy is wrong. I am making a categorical statement when I say that being cannot be analysed because then you destroy being. As a being is a unity and being can only be apprehended in its totality. If you compartmentalize it and isolate it into parts you have destroyed being, because none of its parts can be studied in isolation.

I am just saying the same thing as you are but directly with a no-nonsense approach.

#27

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34387]It is insidiously self-denying. Why call the points you are making a worthless 2 cents worth? You cannot even buy a can of coke with 2 cents. You should have more confidence in what you say. My points are not 2 cents, they are bloody 24 carat gold :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

It is an idiom to save one a lot of writing and speaking which apparently failed on my part. If you look at Mandarin there are tons of these like Du? ni? t?n q?n which translates to Playing the lute to a cow (which by the way does not apply here I am just using it as an example) There is a rather long story behind Du? ni? t?n q?n that if said to a Beijingren gets the point across without much speaking. And they are culturally biased and without some prior knowledge meaningless.

I attempted to use “Just my 2 cents in the same way and it was take in a way I had not intended… sorry

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34387]
The word East and West itself is a generalization. I just made another generalization that says something is generally true of the East and the West. [/QUOTE]

But that depends on context as to whether or not it is good or bad. I am not implying racism here but racism and holy wars are generally based on generalizations… and generally not good ones

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34387]
We Hindus are not politically correct at all and nor were our ancestors. Political correctness is a modern disease born out of postmodernist thinking. Of course there are rights and wrongs. What you call philosophical differences is what we call the differences between right and wrong.[/quote]

I have never been accused of being politically correct but more to the point I was not talking about being politically correct either.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34387]
It is blatantly clear to us Western philosophy is wrong. I am making a categorical statement when I say that being cannot be analysed because then you destroy being. As a being is a unity and being can only be apprehended in its totality. If you compartmentalize it and isolate it into parts you have destroyed being, because none of its parts can be studied in isolation.[/QUOTE]

Have you read/studied all Western Philosophy and Eastern Philosophy?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34387]
I am just saying the same thing as you are but directly with a no-nonsense approach.[/QUOTE]

I am not so sure, I do believe to a certain extent we are but I would not agree that we are in 100% agreement.

#28

Have you read/studied all Western Philosophy and Eastern Philosophy?

I have studied a large majority of it, yes. In Western Philosophy I have Western philosophy from the Greeks to contempoary philosophy. In Eastern Philosophy I have studied the origins of Philosophy from the Vedas to contempoary Eastern philosophy, including various subtraditions within that line Taoism, Confuncianism, Buddhism, Jainism, Charvaka, Sikhism, Tantra.

I know the fundamental and general differences between the Eastern mind and the Western mind. The Eastern mind is holistic and the Western mind is divisive.

#29

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34392]I have studied a large majority of it, yes. In Western Philosophy I have Western philosophy from the Greeks to contempoary philosophy. In Eastern Philosophy I have studied the origins of Philosophy from the Vedas to contempoary Eastern philosophy, including various subtraditions within that line Taoism, Confuncianism, Buddhism, Jainism, Charvaka, Sikhism, Tantra.

I know the fundamental and general differences between the Eastern mind and the Western mind. The Eastern mind is holistic and the Western mind is divisive.[/QUOTE]

Oh Surya Deva, you just made me laugh so suddenly that coffee blew through my nose. No Neti needed this afternoon!

#30

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;34393]Oh Surya Deva, you just made me laugh so suddenly that coffee blew through my nose. No Neti needed this afternoon![/QUOTE]

You have an interesting sense of humour then. As nothing funny was said :wink:

#31

What an image Flexpenguin! Love it!

#32

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34392]I have studied a large majority of it, yes. In Western Philosophy I have Western philosophy from the Greeks to contempoary philosophy. In Eastern Philosophy I have studied the origins of Philosophy from the Vedas to contempoary Eastern philosophy, including various subtraditions within that line Taoism, Confuncianism, Buddhism, Jainism, Charvaka, Sikhism, Tantra.

I know the fundamental and general differences between the Eastern mind and the Western mind. The Eastern mind is holistic and the Western mind is divisive.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure you understand the western philosophy you have read, that or you read it with a preconception as to see what you wanted to see.

Ever studied Legalism? It’s eastern.
Ever read the Koran?
Ever read the Bible?
Ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead?

And there are those that will argue (both eastern and western) that Buddhism (they are generally referring to Tibetan Buddhism) is Nihilistic

As to western Philosophy being divisive meaning creating disunity or dissension

I’m not sure Aristotle or Kant or any other number of Western Philosophers would agree

To quote a Western Philosopher

Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves. (Carl Jung)

We cannot change anything unless we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses. (Carl Jung)

Being

But this is going way off topic and IMO a thing for another post, my apologies to the OP

#33

Ever studied Legalism? It?s eastern.
Ever read the Koran?
Ever read the Bible?
Ever read the Tibetan Book of the Dead?

Yep, all of those. I have a copy of the bible and the Tibetan book of the dead(Bardo) I have also read the Koran. I have looked at Legalism.

And there are those that will argue (both eastern and western) that Buddhism (they are generally referring to Tibetan Buddhism) is Nihilistic

No, they are referring to othodox(Theravada) Buddhism which is nihlistic and they are right.

As to western Philosophy being divisive meaning creating disunity or dissension

I?m not sure Aristotle or Kant or any other number of Western Philosophers would agree

Yes they would, because Aristotle and Kant were the most divisive of them all by separating the natural world and studying it in isolation they set up the scene for a complete materialist and reductionist worldview. Kant very famously ridiculed metaphysics and said that we cannot know anything about the world beyond the empirical world.

The separation of mind from matter is largely thanks to Western philosophers like Aristotle, Descartes and Kant. So yes it is divisive. It is reflected in the scientific method which is about isolating certain aspects of the world and studying them and in medicine which is about isolating only symptoms. In contrast, Eastern philosophy is holistic because it makes no distinctions between mind and matter, it sees them as a continuum and as a web of relationships. This is reflected in the Eastern scientific method which is directly experiencing the world and Eastern medical systems which are about treating disease at the level of mind-body and spirit simultaneously.

To quote a Western Philosopher

Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves. (Carl Jung)

We cannot change anything unless we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses. (Carl Jung)

I am not being irritated by by Western philosophy. I have no emotional reaction to it. I know, however, it is wrong and it is inferior to Eastern philosophy. Even Western philosophers have admitted that.

Western civilisation in general is backwards compared to Eastern civilisation. Eastern civilisation is far older and wiser.

#34

Surya-

The Buddha taught to avoid extremes. He denied Eternalism and Nihilism. Therefore not even the orthodox do not consider themselves nihilistic. Don’t know where you got your info. It doesn’t matter. There are many out there who believe Zen Buddhists are nihilistic. Again, they are not. This is just something that people like yourself keep perpetuating.

#35

I know what Buddha taught. However, what the sanghas later interpreted was not what he taught.

He did not teach that there was no self. However, the later Buddhists interpreted his teachings as such and the natural result of such a self-denying and life-denying philosophy is nihilism.

I know somebody who has spent 6 months in a Zen Buddhist monestary and who is full of respect for Buddhism and he also told be how life denying it is.

#36

Surya Deva

You have read all that and yet you do not understand it… interesting… you have a rather interesting, albeit skewed and somewhat and somewhat nationalistic view (to put it nicely) of things and any further discussion on this would be a waste of time for us both as well as way off topic and at this point a thread hijack – again my apologies to the OP

Thank you for the discussion

I will leave you with this,

The closed mind, if closed long enough, can be opened by nothing short of dynamite. - Gerald W. Johnson

A closed mind is like a closed book, just a block of wood. - Chinese proverb

A closed mind is a dying mind. - Edna Ferber

We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away. - Chuang Tzu

Open your hand and all the sand of the desert will run through your fingers.

Close your hand and you will only grasp a few grains of sand.

And lastly

The closed mind can listen only to that which supports it. The closed mind has only one dimension open, that is: everything that supports it is allowed in, welcomed in. All other dimensions are kept closed because there is fear. Things may enter you which may shake up your belief system, disturb your so-called peace of mind; they may sabotage your faith. No person who is a believer can afford to be open. - Osho

For you

#37

The one scriptural passage where Gautama is asked by a layperson what the meaning of anatta is as follows: [Samyutta Nikaya] At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord Buddha: “Anatta, anatta I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Anatta mean?” “Just this, Radha, form is not the self (anatta), sensations are not the self (anatta), perceptions are not the self (anatta), assemblages are not the self (anatta), consciousness is not the self (anatta). Seeing thusly, this is the end of birth, the Brahman life has been fulfilled, what must be done has been done.”[1

Anatta is the equivalent of “non self”. (from the Doctrine of Anatta)

So as you can see, no one misinterpreted anything. This is what the Buddha taught.

As far as life denying…His opinion. I haven’t experienced that at all.

#38

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;34413]Surya-

The Buddha taught to avoid extremes. He denied Eternalism and Nihilism. Therefore not even the orthodox do not consider themselves nihilistic. Don’t know where you got your info. It doesn’t matter. There are many out there who believe Zen Buddhists are nihilistic. Again, they are not. This is just something that people like yourself keep perpetuating.[/QUOTE]

I have family that are Chan Buddhist and they are not at all nihilistic, to say they are is a gross misunderstanding of what Cahn Buddhism is…and since Zen comes from Chan and I am currently studying Zen I must say I agree with you

#39

[QUOTE=Yulaw;34417]Surya Deva

You have read all that and yet you do not understand it… interesting… you have a rather interesting, albeit skewed and somewhat and somewhat nationalistic view (to put it nicely) of things and any further discussion on this would be a waste of time for us both as well as way off topic and at this point a thread hijack ? again my apologies to the OP[/quote]

That entire post was nothing more than rheotric Yulaw. You claim that I have misunderstood what I have read, but do not care to demonstrate what has been misunderstood. You are the claimant so the burden of proof lies with you.

I would advise you not to make any statements if you are not going to demonstrate it with a reason.

#40

Yulaw-

Thanks! I was beginning to feel alone out here! Buddhists are not nihilistic. Period.

But you must forgive my double negative in my above post. Oops!