I'll see you on the dark side of the Mind

Spirituality
#79

That’s nice.

It is easy, prove it :wink:

It’s part of the historical record. Buddhism has been in the “modern West” a lot longer than Hinduism. In fact, Buddhism was much more influential to Greek philosophy than Yoga or Hinduism ever was. Among leading European philosophers & scholars, Buddhism was studied during the 18th century and even earlier, and Buddhism spread through both immigrations and conversions in both Europe and the US in the 19th century, unlike Hinduism which came into popularity with scholars a century or more later (late 19th century) and didn’t start really growing in the West (outside of spiritualist groups) until substantial Hindu immigration took place & stuff like TM got popular because of the Beetles, etc. Scholars may have some knowledge beyond the general public but belief systems follow immigration patterns and Buddhism has Hinduism & Yoga beat by a good century at least.
It’s just the way it is. Sorry if you can’t accept it, it doesn’t affect historical truth.

I am going to stop wasting time you on you now. I make my case by providing plenty of factual evidence. You make your case by just saying it.

Anybody who knows anything about the history of of Yoga knows Yoga came to the West in the modern times through Hindu gurus. The first being Swami Vivekananda, followed by Swami Yogananda. Then it gained huge popularity in the West through the TM movement, again founded by a Hindu guru. Hatha Yoga, on the other hand gained huge popularity through yet another Hindu guru, B.K.S Iyengar.

You are evidently not qualified to have this discussion with me, and to boot, you are impolite and unreasonable. I am terminating it here.

Everyone here is aware of the “Yoga in the West Timeline”, I have no idea why you feel the need to slam readers with these posts jam packed with the most basic historical trivia. You remind me of Teitan except with better grammar & less of a temper.
You’re right, however. I’m not really qualified to have this “discussion”.
I could never match enlightened egos with you. Considering what a high opinion you have of yourself, maybe you should change your forum name to Ahamkaradev? Just a thought.

:wink:

(you’re the one with the Hindu/Indian supremacist, anti-JudeoChristian/Western agenda & you wanna call [B]ME[/B] impolite and unreasonable? Wow. I’d say that’s the pot calling the kettle black but you’d probably just take that as me being racist against kitchen ware or something…)

#80

It’s part of the historical record. Buddhism has been in the “modern West” a lot longer than Hinduism.

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but sure would like to see your sources. As far as I know the earliest major influence on the modern West was by Hinduism and not Buddhism. The first translations of Indian texts to be translated in the modern West were the Upanishads, which were translated from Arabic into English and read by Schopenhauer. He has gone on record and acknowledged both his debt and his admiration for the Upanishads. Thereafter, a huge craze for Hindu stuff started in the West and every major Hindu work was translated into English from Sanskrit.

In fact, Buddhism was much more influential to Greek philosophy than Yoga or Hinduism ever was.

This is certainly not the viewpoint of scholarship which clearly say that Greek philosophy is inline with Hindu philosophy. Almost every scholar acknowledges just how strongly Hindu Pythagorean philosophy is and are convinced that either he went to India and studied at one of its universities or there were Hindus present in Greece. Many scholars have noted how strongly Yogic Platonism is, and unsurprisingly the platonists later had major Sanskrit texts like the Gita traslated into Greek. There are several greek records which record the vists of Hindu brahmins into Greece. They were known for their wisdom.

But answer this very simple question. If Buddhism was more influencial on Greek philosophy then where are the concepts of annata, dukhha and shunyata in Greek philosophy, which are the cornerstone of Buddhist philosophy? On the other hand, it is far easier to make the case for Hindu concepts like atman, moksha and yoga being present in Greek philosophy

Face it, you are anti-Hindu and you will not concede anything to the Hindus, even if it were true. .

#81

Schopenhauer gave Buddhist scriptures equal time (at least). If you actually read Schopenhauer you’d know that.
Do your damned homework.

He had quite strong views on Christian morality also

You like Schopenhauer as a talking point? Here are some quotes you may find challenging considering some of the things you’ve said to me.

:smiley:
You get it yet? Don’t throw names around unless you actually have READ them.

This is certainly not the viewpoint of scholarship which clearly say that Greek philosophy is inline with Hindu philosophy. Almost every scholar acknowledges just how strongly Hindu Pythagorean philosophy is and are convinced that either he went to India and studied at one of its universities or there were Hindus present in Greece.

Pythagoras never went to India. Voltaire made that crap up. Of course, since you want to talk about “scholarship”, go find a reputable historian that will provide proof that Pythagoras got a theory such as metempsychosis from India (& not Egypt).
& try looking up Greco-Buddhism. I’m sure a Google search should help.

Many scholars have noted how strongly Yogic Platonism is, and unsurprisingly the platonists later had major Sanskrit texts like the Gita traslated into Greek. There are several greek records which record the vists of Hindu brahmins into Greece. They were known for their wisdom.

Do you have historical citations for this? Or just opinion?

But answer this very simple question. If Buddhism was more influencial on Greek philosophy then where are the concepts of annata, dukhha and shunyata in Greek philosophy, which are the cornerstone of Buddhist philosophy? On the other hand, it is far easier to make the case for Hindu concepts like atman, moksha and yoga being present in Greek philosophy

Read some about Heraclitus.
&some more
He’s like a Zen Buddhist in 6th century BCE Greece.

“Know Thyself” and “Nothing in Excess” was advice on the ruin walls of the Apollo temple at Delphi (6th century BCE).

Face it, you are anti-Hindu and you will not concede anything to the Hindus, even if it were true. .

hey, you provide some thing vaguely resembling [B]Historical PROOF[/B] of Hindu influence on Greek Philosophy & not just your Hindutva propaganda & I’ll listen.

#82

The Oupnek’hat Schopenhauer referenced was first published (in Latin) in 1804.
His source for Buddhism, the Asiatic Researches, date back to 1788.

#83

Indra Deva,

The biggest difference between Hinduism and Buddhism is the doctrines of shunyata and annata. In all other areas they agree(karma, dharma, moksha, dukkha etc) In Greek philosophy, Heraclitus and his school was only one school of Greek philosophy who believed change was absolute. It does not characteristize Greek philosophy as the doctrines of shunyata and annata characterize Buddhist philosophy. The doctrines of shunyata and annata are absolutely central to Buddhist philosophy. They barely figure in Greek philosophy. Greek philosophy is classified into two stages: presocratic and postsocratic, because of how important socratic philosophy was in defining what Greek philosophy was. There is nothing in socratic philosophy which supports Buddhist doctrines, rather you find socratic philosophy supports Hindu philosophy through and through and it is noted by many scholars.

Vitsaxis G. Vassilis, in his book Plato and the Upanishads, argues that exponents of literature, science, philosophy and religion traveled regularly between the two countries. He points to accounts by Eusebius and Aristoxenes, of the visits of Indian sages to Athens and their meetings with Greek philosophers. And reference to the visit of Indians to Athens is found in the fragment of Aristotle preserved in the writings of Diogenes Laertius who was also one of Pythagoras’ biographers.

The essence of Socratic and Platonic philosophy has remained unintelligible in the West because of lack of insight into Indian thought. Plato’s view of Reality is the same as that of the Upanishads. His method of attaining knowledge of the Good is that of Vedanta. In the Phaedo, Plato describes silent meditation as withdrawal of the senses from their objects and as stilling the processes of mind.

The Greek theoria of the Pythagoreans, of Socrates and Plato, from which the world ‘theater’ comes is the vision or darshana of the Upanishads. Plato mentions that philosophic wisdom can only be communicated directly from a teacher to disciple, like lighting one lamp by another. The Timaeus indicates after the manner of the Upanishads that the receiver of philosophic truth must be a fit person - fit by character and not by reason of intellect alone. Platonic thought is so un-Greek in the sense in which Greek thought is generally taken, namely, purely rationalism, that some philosopher, such as Nietzsche, have called it " un-Hellenic."

Pythagoras was particularly influenced by Indian philosophy. Professor R. G. Rawlinson remarks that:

“almost all the theories, religious, philosophical, and mathematical, taught by the Pythagorians were known in India in the sixth century B.C.”

The thought of Plotinus is Hindu. Eusebius in his biography of Socrates, relates an incident recorded in the fourth century B.C. in which Socrates met a Brahmin in the agora or the market place. The Brahmin asked Socrates what he was doing. Socrates replied that he was questioning people in order to understand man. At this, the Brahmin laughed and asked how one could understand man without knowing God.

The Socrates conception of freedom and virtue is that of the Upanishads. Socrates defined virtue as knowledge. Virtue is character, the realization of the essence of man. Know thyself, which is exactly the same as the Upanisadic command, Atmanam biddhi. In the Gita, knowledge or wisdom is defined as character. Virtue, comes from the Vedic word vira (hero, man).

Greek philosophy began in Asia Minor and Greek writers refer to the travels of Pythagoras, and others, to the East to gain wisdom. According to his biographer Iamblichus,

“Pythagoras traveled widely, studying the esoteric teachings of the Egyptians, Assyrians, and even Brahmins.”

Pythagoras never went to India. Voltaire made that crap up. Of course, since you want to talk about “scholarship”, go find a reputable historian that will provide proof that Pythagoras got a theory such as metempsychosis from India (& not Egypt).

Professor H. G. Rawlinson writes: " It is more likely that Pythagoras was influenced by India than by Egypt. Almost all the theories, religions, philosophical and mathematical taught by the Pythagoreans, were known in India in the sixth century B.C., and the Pythagoreans, like the Jains and the Buddhists, refrained from the destruction of life and eating meat and regarded certain vegetables such as beans as taboo" "It seems that the so-called Pythagorean theorem of the quadrature of the hypotenuse was already known to the Indians in the older Vedic times, and thus before Pythagoras (ibid). (Legacy of India 1937, p. 5).

#84

Plenty of information on India vis-a-vis Greece documented here, with citations and references: http://www.hinduwisdom.info/India_and_Greece.htm

#85

Schopenhauer and what he really said

"“There is no religion or philosophy so sublime and elevating as Vedanta.”

(source: Kumbha Mela - By Jack Hebner and David Osborn p. preface - By Thomas Beaudry)."

The Indian air surrounds us, the original thoughts of kindred spirits…And O! how the mind is here washed clean of all its early ingrafted Jewish superstition! It is the most profitable and most elevating reading which is possible in the world."

(source: Eastern Religions and Western Thought - By Dr. S. Radhakrishnan p 248 and Hinduism Invades America - By Wendell Thomas p. 240 published by The Beacon Press Inc. New York City 1930).

"How entirely does the Oupnekhat (Upanishad) breathe throughout the holy spirit of the Vedas! How is every one, who by a diligent study of its Persian Latin has become familiar with that incomparable book, stirred by that spirit to the very depth of his Soul!

He spoke of India as the ‘fatherland of mankind’ which ‘gave the original religion of our race,’ and he expressed the hope that European peoples, ‘who stemmed from Asia,…would re-attain the religion of their home.’

He believed that the Upanishads, together with the philosophies of Plato and Kant, constituted the foundation on which to erect a proper philosophy of representation. It was the Upanishads’ analysis of the self which caused Schopenhauer to stamp them as " the product of the highest human wisdom". He dedicated himself to this task, producing his magnum opus, The World as Will and Representation, in 1819. This is what he says in this book:

"We, on the contrary, now send to the Brahmans English clergymen and evangelical linen-weavers, in order out of sympathy to put them right, and to point out to them that they are created out of nothing, and that they ought to be grateful and pleased about it. But it is just the same as if we fired a bullet at a cliff. “In India, our religions will never at any time take root; the ancient wisdom of the human race will not be supplanted by the events in Galilee. On the contrary, Indian wisdom flows back to Europe, and will produce a fundamental change in our knowledge and thought.”

(source: The World as Will and Representation - By Arthur Schopenhauer Volume I, & 63 p. 356-357).

#86

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;46588]Indra Deva,

The biggest difference between Hinduism and Buddhism is the doctrines of shunyata and annata. In all other areas they agree(karma, dharma, moksha, dukkha etc) In Greek philosophy, Heraclitus and his school was only one school of Greek philosophy who believed change was absolute. It does not characteristize Greek philosophy as the doctrines of shunyata and annata characterize Buddhist philosophy. The doctrines of shunyata and annata are absolutely central to Buddhist philosophy. They barely figure in Greek philosophy. Greek philosophy is classified into two stages: presocratic and postsocratic, because of how important socratic philosophy was in defining what Greek philosophy was. There is nothing in socratic philosophy which supports Buddhist doctrines, rather you find socratic philosophy supports Hindu philosophy through and through and it is noted by many scholars.

Vitsaxis G. Vassilis, in his book Plato and the Upanishads, argues that exponents of literature, science, philosophy and religion traveled regularly between the two countries. He points to accounts by Eusebius and Aristoxenes, of the visits of Indian sages to Athens and their meetings with Greek philosophers. And reference to the visit of Indians to Athens is found in the fragment of Aristotle preserved in the writings of Diogenes Laertius who was also one of Pythagoras? biographers.

The essence of Socratic and Platonic philosophy has remained unintelligible in the West because of lack of insight into Indian thought. Plato’s view of Reality is the same as that of the Upanishads. His method of attaining knowledge of the Good is that of Vedanta. In the Phaedo, Plato describes silent meditation as withdrawal of the senses from their objects and as stilling the processes of mind.

The Greek theoria of the Pythagoreans, of Socrates and Plato, from which the world ‘theater’ comes is the vision or darshana of the Upanishads. Plato mentions that philosophic wisdom can only be communicated directly from a teacher to disciple, like lighting one lamp by another. The Timaeus indicates after the manner of the Upanishads that the receiver of philosophic truth must be a fit person - fit by character and not by reason of intellect alone. Platonic thought is so un-Greek in the sense in which Greek thought is generally taken, namely, purely rationalism, that some philosopher, such as Nietzsche, have called it " un-Hellenic."

Pythagoras was particularly influenced by Indian philosophy. Professor R. G. Rawlinson remarks that:

“almost all the theories, religious, philosophical, and mathematical, taught by the Pythagorians were known in India in the sixth century B.C.”

The thought of Plotinus is Hindu. Eusebius in his biography of Socrates, relates an incident recorded in the fourth century B.C. in which Socrates met a Brahmin in the agora or the market place. The Brahmin asked Socrates what he was doing. Socrates replied that he was questioning people in order to understand man. At this, the Brahmin laughed and asked how one could understand man without knowing God.

The Socrates conception of freedom and virtue is that of the Upanishads. Socrates defined virtue as knowledge. Virtue is character, the realization of the essence of man. Know thyself, which is exactly the same as the Upanisadic command, Atmanam biddhi. In the Gita, knowledge or wisdom is defined as character. Virtue, comes from the Vedic word vira (hero, man).

Greek philosophy began in Asia Minor and Greek writers refer to the travels of Pythagoras, and others, to the East to gain wisdom. According to his biographer Iamblichus,

“Pythagoras traveled widely, studying the esoteric teachings of the Egyptians, Assyrians, and even Brahmins.”

Professor H. G. Rawlinson writes: " It is more likely that Pythagoras was influenced by India than by Egypt. Almost all the theories, religions, philosophical and mathematical taught by the Pythagoreans, were known in India in the sixth century B.C., and the Pythagoreans, like the Jains and the Buddhists, refrained from the destruction of life and eating meat and regarded certain vegetables such as beans as taboo" "It seems that the so-called Pythagorean theorem of the quadrature of the hypotenuse was already known to the Indians in the older Vedic times, and thus before Pythagoras (ibid). (Legacy of India 1937, p. 5).[/QUOTE]

[B]
You had better start providing sources (& I mean REPUTABLE HISTORIANS) & quit cutting & pasting w/o provided links. [/B]

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/India_and_Greece.htm

I seem to recall requesting HISTORICAL CITATIONS, not one of your crazy pro-Hindu websites. You seem to like quoting this same quack. Come up with something better.

#87

I have provided citatations and references. It makes no difference whether the web site is pro Hindu, for it is nothing more than a collection of citations and references and excerpts from actual academic literature.

It is the best place to find a compilation of these and hence you have been referred to it to increase your knowledge - which unfortunately is unlikely to ever happen - because you are unwilling to learn from anybody, blinded by your hate and prejudice for Hindus. You are an example of somebody who willfuly remains ignorant.

#88

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;46591]Schopenhauer and what he really said

"“There is no religion or philosophy so sublime and elevating as Vedanta.”

(source: Kumbha Mela - By Jack Hebner and David Osborn p. preface - By Thomas Beaudry)."

The Indian air surrounds us, the original thoughts of kindred spirits…And O! how the mind is here washed clean of all its early ingrafted Jewish superstition! It is the most profitable and most elevating reading which is possible in the world."

(source: Eastern Religions and Western Thought - By Dr. S. Radhakrishnan p 248 and Hinduism Invades America - By Wendell Thomas p. 240 published by The Beacon Press Inc. New York City 1930).

"How entirely does the Oupnekhat (Upanishad) breathe throughout the holy spirit of the Vedas! How is every one, who by a diligent study of its Persian Latin has become familiar with that incomparable book, stirred by that spirit to the very depth of his Soul!

He spoke of India as the ‘fatherland of mankind’ which ‘gave the original religion of our race,’ and he expressed the hope that European peoples, ‘who stemmed from Asia,…would re-attain the religion of their home.’

He believed that the Upanishads, together with the philosophies of Plato and Kant, constituted the foundation on which to erect a proper philosophy of representation. It was the Upanishads’ analysis of the self which caused Schopenhauer to stamp them as " the product of the highest human wisdom". He dedicated himself to this task, producing his magnum opus, The World as Will and Representation, in 1819. This is what he says in this book:

"We, on the contrary, now send to the Brahmans English clergymen and evangelical linen-weavers, in order out of sympathy to put them right, and to point out to them that they are created out of nothing, and that they ought to be grateful and pleased about it. But it is just the same as if we fired a bullet at a cliff. “In India, our religions will never at any time take root; the ancient wisdom of the human race will not be supplanted by the events in Galilee. On the contrary, Indian wisdom flows back to Europe, and will produce a fundamental change in our knowledge and thought.”

(source: The World as Will and Representation - By Arthur Schopenhauer Volume I, & 63 p. 356-357).[/QUOTE]

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/quotes1_20.htm

Man, you REALLY need to learn to QUIT CUTTING & PASTING. It’s pretty pathetic.

#89

and Buddhism already had converts in Victorian England and America among former Christians before the 1890’s.
Ahhhh, the truth is a beautiful thing :smiley:

#90

You lie that that I am not providing you links to my sources. I just very clearly showed you my source in post #84. It is clear I am not hiding my sources from you. It is implied and obvious that I am copying and pasting from here :smiley: A person with the intellect of a retarded cockroach could work that one out, buster :wink:

By the way I just realised I have let you let me get carried away into an off-topic discussion. So were terminating this here.

#91

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;46595]I have provided citatations and references. It makes no difference whether the web site is pro Hindu, for it is nothing more than a collection of citations and references and excerpts from actual academic literature.

It is the best place to find a compilation of these and hence you have been referred to it to increase your knowledge - which unfortunately is unlikely to ever happen - because you are unwilling to learn from anybody, blinded by your hate and prejudice for Hindus. You are an example of somebody who willfuly remains ignorant.[/QUOTE]

You’re just cutting & pasting from some website with NO CITATIONS. It’s next to worthless for a serious debate. Try providing references & not just Hindutva propaganda if you’d like to be taken seriously.

#92

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;46601]You lie that that I am not providing you links to my sources. I just very clearly showed you my source in post #84. It is clear I am not hiding my sources from you. It is implied and obvious that I am copying and pasting from here :smiley: A person with the intellect of a retarded cockroach could work that one out, buster :wink:

By the way I just realised I have let you let me get carried away into an off-topic discussion. So were terminating this here.[/QUOTE]

that stupid website is in no way shape or form a reputable source, it’s not even a “source”. It’s just some stupid website.

Try again, “smart guy”. :lol:

#93

Have any of you ever been to http://headville.net/

the discussions that are happening here remind me of the discussions and ideas that are floating around there. Very similar that’s why I was wondering of any of that is inspired by the other.

#94

Findigtheway thanks for the link looks interesting

#95

Have you ever meditated or done yoga? If so, why do you do it and what happens when you do? I?ve done a bit of meditation in the past and was under the impression that you begin by stopping all thoughts? And then what? You relax?? Have you managed to get past this point?

A few months ago, I attended a class in Tasmania called ?Open heart meditation?. We were instructed not to focus on the mind and instead, told to focus on the heart chakra and accept any passing thoughts, rather than actively try to stop them.

During the meditation, I became aware of a strong, delicate white energy coiling up through my whole body which felt so powerful, I intuitively thought, there is something inside all of us that remains alive after death. I no longer felt like a physical being; I felt connected, made of energy and instinctively thought that there is something higher at work here.

Is this a valid explanation for having blind faith in something? I discussed my experience with the teacher afterwards who described the energy as ?Kundalini energy?: ?Energy that lies dormant at the base of the spine until it is activated, as by the practice of yoga or meditation, and channeled upward through the chakras in the process of spiritual perfection?. (answers.com)

I found out that there were people from all over the world and periods of history who had experienced and felt the same thing. Does this make it more valid? Are ?spiritual experiences? designed to shed light on the truths of the universe? Or, are they delusional experiences unique to human beings, to make us feel less alone?

#96

@clareActman

Yes.

#97

[QUOTE=charliedharma;46653]Findigtheway thanks for the link looks interesting[/QUOTE]

No problem its very soothing there

#98

[QUOTE=Asuri;46508]@awwware

Your proposition takes care of the unresolved problems nicely. It would be nice if life were that simple and easy, but it isn’t. I don’t have the answers, nor do I have really specific objections to what you offer, except that it all seems a little too easy and convenient. I reserve judgement at this time.[/QUOTE]
OK, I’ll try to backup my theories with some experimental evidence. I wrote something about consciousness states of people who have been judged brain-dead and still were able to relate about their own surgery. Have a look at http://awwware.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/quasi-pictorial-correlates-of-consciousness/ and see if there is anything which makes my hypotheses more plausible. I’m always interested in counter arguments.