The self is an illusion that is ladened with attachments. The idea is to see the true self that is not a self at all. It is pure essence of everything.
What does it mean that it is an “illusion”?
Who is the one being fooled by this illusion?
From a Buddhist perspective you are not the same self. We are ever changing.
You are not addressing what Thomas is saying. He is saying that mentaly, physically, emotionally he has changed many times, but he still is the same person whose gone through those changes and remembers himself going through all those changes. Then who is that person who remembers going through all those changes over 50 years?
Desire is the cause of suffering (Buddhist perspective again) One does not need to suffer to know that suffering exists. The elimination of suffering is the aim of Buddhism.
So you desire to eliminate suffering?
Thomas,
If you desire not to suffer but suffer anyway, what have you accomplished? Desires cause us to suffer because we expect a certain outcome. When that outcome does not come into fruition, you suffer because it is not what you wanted or expected. Lose desire (attachment), live in the moment, cultivate loving kindness and compassion and you will not suffer.
Think of it this way. If you desire to stop sinning and live a saintly life, you have established an outcome. What happens to you if you sin while desiring not to sin? You suffer because you did not meet those expectations. So why desire at all?
I’ve answered Thomas’s question. He can ask for clarification.
And No, I do not “desire” to eliminate suffering. Eliminate desire-eliminate suffering.
And you know what? Both of you! This has been discussed many times by many people.
Thomas,
What does it mean that it is an “illusion”?
Who is the one being fooled by this illusion?
There is no permanent or unchanging self.
There is no real enduring personality. We label who we are. Tall, short, blonde, etc.
This is not us. There is no “I” or “mine” We are constantly changing. WE ARE NOT THE SAME AS WE WERE AT TIME OF BIRTH, ONE MINUTE AGO OR 30 YEARS AGO.
Contrary to what you may think or what you’ve been told, this is the Buddhist way. Period. Don’t try to look or judge it through the eyes of a Christian. You may not agree with it because your beliefs are different. They is contrary to some of your beliefs. So for you it is a wrong way to view it. But it is not so for a Buddhist.
And no one is being fooled by this illusion.
If my “self” is an “illusion” than what is the reality behind the illusion?
That I am the essense of all that is?
Am I right in my analogy that from your perspective it’s as if each of us is an ice cube that doesn’t realize it’s part of one gigantic puddle of water, and one day the cube will melt and become one with the entire body of water?
I have much I disagree with with many religions, but they are not illogical to me.
Buddhism doesn’t seem logical. I don’t see how I can have no “self” or that it’s illusory. I don’t see how someone who also has no self can tell me this.
It’s as if you’re telling me I don’t exist–that I just think I exist.
Unless one has a heart of stone, one cannot help but suffer if their child were tortured, or even someone else’s child were met with a horrible injustice.
There is suffering because there is evil and sin in the world. There is some suffering because of desiring the wrong things, but there is also suffering because of earthquakes, tornadoes, cancer, etc.
How does giving up all desire give someone the strength to not suffer if their child is murdered, or to not suffer physical pain?
It would be good to give up vain desires, greedy desires, and all desire to do wrong. But how can it cause suffering to desire to do good? To desire better things for my neighbor? To desire peace on earth?
I’m trying to find something in Buddhism that makes sense. Some common ground. Something I can praise.
But the more I learn about it, the more depressing it becomes, and I’m wondering why it rings true to some, and what the attraction is. It seems so contradictory to common sense to deny the existence of a “self.”
At any rate, I don’t see how it can be exempted from being a religion. It takes faith to believe Buddhist concepts. They can’t be proven.
Think of it this way. If you desire to stop sinning and live a saintly life, you have established an outcome. What happens to you if you sin while desiring not to sin? You suffer because you did not meet those expectations. So why desire at all?
Am I misunderstanding what you mean by “desire”?
I have desires all day long.
I desire to read this forum, and then I do. I desire to eat luch. I desire to drive to the store. Sometimes these desires are frustrated, but I would never do anything without first having the desire lead the way.
Yes, I could desire something noble like wanting to be a saint, and then fail miserably, but without the desire, I would never try.
And the ultimate desire is eternal life and happiness. If such a thing exists, of course I would desire it, and not desiring it isn’t going to bring it to me automatically. And if it doesn’t exist, then why should I care about anything whatsoever? Might as well just curl up into a ball and die.
Thomas,
I give up. Really I do. Nothing personal intended. I’m sure someone will have something to say about it though.
I don’t know how else to explain it to you. Funny thing is Buddhism is probably one of the most simple, stripped down religions. Seems no matter what I say or how I say it (and I will include others who have tried to explain) makes not a bit of difference.
So, at this point I have no “desire” to continue. Maybe someone else will.
This is not to lotusgirl by the way
Oh for crying out loud…THINK!!! and stop asking to be spoon fed… open your minds and your hearts and STOP judging things and you might just learn something
Desire
verb, -sired, -siring, noun
?verb (used with object)
- to wish or long for; crave; want.
- to express a wish to obtain; ask for; request: The mayor desires your presence at the next meeting.
?noun - a longing or craving, as for something that brings satisfaction or enjoyment: a desire for fame.
- an expressed wish; request.
- something desired.
- sexual appetite or a sexual urge.
Stop wishing, stop craving, and stop longing all this leads to suffering.
Just know, just except, and just understand
Don’t think…do
Live for today not for tomorrow
If all you focus on is the end you will miss now
You concentrate on the reward, heaven, god, eternal reward and you miss now, and you miss life, which is suffering.
Or to quote someone that is more from my area of training
Don’t think, feel!
It is like a finger pointing away to the moon.
Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.
– Bruce Lee
Now my last word on this topic
I cannot make this any simpler for you and I will not explain further
Remember Thomas the desire to eat from the tree of Knowledge…have you ever deeply considered what that line in Genesis is about?..its the most important line in the bible…thin about it…
And now I am going…again…lol xxxxx
Eating from the tree of interference to the brain and by doing so,direct contact to the divine…or God …the desire we have…
Unfortunately, as me, Thomas and any rational reader can see the Buddhists here are hopelessly contradicting themselves. They say there is no self, and yet they still talk as if they exist. If you say something to them that offends, they say I have been offended. They talk about their husband and wives, their friends, their family, their life, their experiences, their posts( 
)
They talk about all desire being the cause of suffering. And yet they desire to reach enlightenment, be happy, loving and compassionate. They desire to eat, drink and live. They desire to post on this forum
A Buddhist is a walking-talking contradiction.
And No, I do not “desire” to eliminate suffering. Eliminate desire-eliminate suffering.
Then you desire to eliminate suffering. Why else would you sit for long hours in meditation, do charity work, read Buddhist literature. There is obviously a motivation behind your action and that is therefore a desire.
If it is not a desire, then what is it?
If you desire not to suffer but suffer anyway, what have you accomplished? Desires cause us to suffer because we expect a certain outcome.
Nope, it is not necessary that all desires have an expectation of outcome. I desire $1 million, but I certainly do not expect $1 million and if I never get it any any point in my life, I am not going to suffer because I have no expectation of it. You sound like a bit of a spoilt sport - so you basically expect everything you desire and suffer when you do not get it? It must be hard being you On the other hand, myself if I desire something and I do not get it, I just accept it and move on.
There is no permanent or unchanging self.
There is no real enduring personality. We label who we are. Tall, short, blonde, etc.
This is not us. There is no “I” or “mine” We are constantly changing. WE ARE NOT THE SAME AS WE WERE AT TIME OF BIRTH, ONE MINUTE AGO OR 30 YEARS AGO.
Contrary to what you may think or what you’ve been told, this is the Buddhist way. Period. Don’t try to look or judge it through the eyes of a Christian. You may not agree with it because your beliefs are different. They is contrary to some of your beliefs. So for you it is a wrong way to view it. But it is not so for a Buddhist.
Now you are preaching at Thomas. Thomas has asked you a very simple and direct question, he accepts that he has changed physically, mentally and emotionally many times over 50 years, but he remembers himself as the same person whose gone through all those changes and remembers those changes. Then who is the one that remembers?
This has got nothing to do with Thomas being a Christian or myself being a Hindu. We are asking you a reasonable question, and expecting a reasonable answer. You are obviously growing frustrated because you don’t have a reasonable answer. Much like how any religious person gets when their religious beliefs are questioned.
I don’t know how else to explain it to you. Funny thing is Buddhism is probably one of the most simple, stripped down religions. Seems no matter what I say or how I say it (and I will include others who have tried to explain) makes not a bit of difference.
You simply have to say something which is reasonable. No matter how many times you say, “fire is cold” or “the moon is made of cheese” or “the earth is flat” it is never going to fly with us. You are telling us unreasonable things and expecting us to accept it.
Funny thing is Buddhism is probably one of the most simple, stripped down religions
So you are admitting it is a religion now
U
nfortunately, as me, Thomas and any rational reader can see the Buddhists here are hopelessly contradicting themselves. They say there is no self, and yet they still talk as if they exist. If you say something to them that offends, they say I have been offended. They talk about their husband and wives, their friends, their family, their life, their experiences, their posts( )
They talk about all desire being the cause of suffering. And yet they desire to reach enlightenment, be happy, loving and compassionate. They desire to eat, drink and live. They desire to post on this forum
A Buddhist is a walking-talking contradiction.
Mr Surya Deva,
You have truly perfected the art of putting words into peoples mouths. Congratulations!
Did anyone who is Buddhist ever say they “DESIRE” to reach enlightenment? The answer is NO!
Of course we talk about our lives. Enlightenment has not yet been reached. We use I because are are still striving. Striving toward the end of suffering and Nirvana. You seem to be on quite a different path, promoting the suffering of others.
Your tutorial about your Buddhist retreat is plagued with errors and misconceptions. One very glaring one is you stating that Buddhists believe in nothingness. That is an absolute falsehood! People who are not familiar with Buddhism often say this along with the nihilism claim. What Buddhists believe is “emptiness” the “void”. This does not mean void of everything. Quite the contrary. It means EVERYTHING. And BTW, you still don’t understand the self FROM A BUDDHIST PERSPECTIVE AT ALL.
And Mr. Surya Deva, you won’t have to be too concerned about me for much longer. I’ve grown tired of this forum and posters like you who don’t want to debate or listen. You want to convert and preach. You are not tolerant in the slightest. I will be winding down my time here through the end of the year. This is not yoga or what this forum is meant to be or accomplish. This is very sad indeed. The end.
So you are admitting it is a religion now
And now I will sound like Yulaw who I greatly respect. It was a mistake on my part to write religion. I have, to my defense, stated that there are those Buddhists who believe it is so. I am not one of them.
Quote:
There is no permanent or unchanging self.
There is no real enduring personality. We label who we are. Tall, short, blonde, etc.
This is not us. There is no “I” or “mine” We are constantly changing. WE ARE NOT THE SAME AS WE WERE AT TIME OF BIRTH, ONE MINUTE AGO OR 30 YEARS AGO.
Contrary to what you may think or what you’ve been told, this is the Buddhist way. Period. Don’t try to look or judge it through the eyes of a Christian. You may not agree with it because your beliefs are different. They is contrary to some of your beliefs. So for you it is a wrong way to view it. But it is not so for a Buddhist.
Now you are preaching at Thomas. Thomas has asked you a very simple and direct question, he accepts that he has changed physically, mentally and emotionally many times over 50 years, but he remembers himself as the same person whose gone through all those changes and remembers those changes. Then who is the one that remembers?
This has got nothing to do with Thomas being a Christian or myself being a Hindu. We are asking you a reasonable question, and expecting a reasonable answer. You are obviously growing frustrated because you don’t have a reasonable answer. Much like how any religious person gets when their religious beliefs are questioned.
I gave a reasonable answer. More times than I can count.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;44048]Unfortunately, as me, Thomas and any rational reader can see the Buddhists here are hopelessly contradicting themselves. They say there is no self, and yet they still talk as if they exist. If you say something to them that offends, they say I have been offended. They talk about their husband and wives, their friends, their family, their life, their experiences, their posts( )
They talk about all desire being the cause of suffering. And yet they desire to reach enlightenment, be happy, loving and compassionate. They desire to eat, drink and live. They desire to post on this forum
A Buddhist is a walking-talking contradiction.[/QUOTE]
Or any rational reader can see that you and Thomas simply do not understand… it all depends on your point of view
Ouch, we appaear to have touched a nerve. I am sorry your religious sensibilities have been hurt, but you do have to take stock of the fact that this is the religion forum and here we discuss and debate religions. You have to have a thick skin in order to post here and be prepared to address criticisms of your religion. I have faced criticisms of Hinduism, Thomas has faced criticism of Christianity, and now you are facing criticisms of Buddhism. The difference is we could take it, you obviously are finding it hard to. I can only counsel then, perhaps you should stay away from the religion forum 
My “religious” sensibilities have not been hurt. First because I am not religious and second, because I’m not always sensible!
I have just grown tired of it all. All of this. This negativity. It’s like a virus that eats away at the forum. There is so much beauty in this world and I keep thinking why am I continuing to post here where it is negative and pointless. Neither you or Thomas really want to understand other religions. Be honest. All you seem to enjoy is tearing them down.
Mr Surya Deva,
You have truly perfected the art of putting words into peoples mouths. Congratulations!
Did anyone who is Buddhist ever say the “DESIRE” to reach enlightenment? The answer is NO!
No, but then again do you not have to say it. It is implied. It is obvious to everybody that a Buddhist wants enlightenment. This is the goal of Buddhism. You would not be putting yourself through all that pain sitting long hours in meditation if this was not true. You want enlightenment. Nothing wrong with that, I think myself and Thomas would respect your religious goals more if you were honest about it.
Honesty has been a recurrent theme in my criticisms of your views. Interesting.
Of course we talk about our lives. Enlightenment has not yet been reached. We use I because are are still striving. Striving toward the end of suffering and Nirvana. You seem to be on quite a different path, promoting the suffering of others.
So you use I for practical purposes, but do not believe it exists? If that is the case then why are you emotionally invested in the “I” Why did you react with outrage when I said that your husband is either an imposter or the anatta doctrine is false. You said to me, “My husband has worked his ass off” Why do you react with such great frustration and threaten you will leave the forum and call this sad, if you do not believe there is no you? I am sorry but actions speak louder than words, and it is clear to any objective person you believe in the “I” and are as invested in it, as the average joe.
Again, be honest.
You tutorial about your Buddhist retreat is plagued with errors and misconceptions. One very glaring one is you stating that Buddhists believe in nothingness. That is an absolute falsehood! People who are not familiar with Buddhism often say this along with the nihilism claim. What Buddhists believe is “emptiness” the “void”. This does not mean void of everything. Quite the contrary. It means EVERYTHING. You don’t understand the self FROM A BUDDHIST PERSPECTIVE AT ALL.
I am familiar with Shunyatavada(doctrine of void/emptiness) and it is definitely believed that everything is ultimately void. The void is everything. If you dissect any concept, object ultimately you reduce it to nothingness. You can no longer claim I am ignorant of Buddhism. I studied Buddhism at university, I did my exam question on Buddhism and now I have actually lived like a monk in a Buddhist centre for a week.
You have said nothing so far, which shows your knowledge of Buddhism is any more stronger than mine is. The chances are, I know Buddhism better than you do
And now I will sound like Yulaw who I greatly respect. It was a mistake on my part to write religion. I have, to my defense, stated that there are those Buddhists who believe it is so. I am not one of them.
No worries, I expected this of you Like I said Buddhists are walking-talking contradictions. One moment they say something, the other moment they say the opposite. And this is to be expected from a religion where change is seen as sacred.
However, for the reasonable person somebody who does not have a stable and coherent viewpoint has no credibility. Why should I, or any other reasonable person, take you seriously, when you yourself do not take anything you say seriously.
After all you do not exist, so why should I take anything seriously by somebody who does not exist
I gave a reasonable answer. More times than I can count.
In your mind that maybe the case, but in actuality you have still not answered our simple question: Who is the one that remembers the changes and remembers themselves as the person who witnessed those changes over 50 years?
An objective reader can clearly see now that Buddhism is a religion and the Buddhists posting here are religious. The Buddhists have lost this debate