Is Samadhi fiction?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#4

Hi Adam

You mention you were a christian till you read the bible, then I recommend reading Patanjali’s Sutra the Samadhi Pada.

Samadhi may be translated in a very simple way. Sama meaning equal and Adhi meaning mind gives us evenmindedness.

I think it would be good to consider the difference between absolute and relative Samadhi as it can take this discussion away from the fundamentalism you object to.

If we accept that absolute Samadhi is not really a discussion point unless its been experienced, and most commentators on that subject tend to the consensus that “words cannot describe”. So we are left with relative Samadhi.

To maintain even mindedness in our daily life is just as much a practice as in meditation. To expect that meditation will permanently wash our negative emotions away is to hold onto a delusion. Meditation can change our mind relatively, especially if we achieve real bliss in the practice, but life goes on and emotions come and go.

By the way blissfulness in meditation is known as Dhyana, that is a different concept from Samadhi. And to get lost and attached to blissfulness in life is not to maintain an even mind. The even mind accepts pain and pleasure equally.

Hope this is useful and that some of the other meditators out there can contribute to this thread. Adam I think you are coming from a very honest place with your thread and it come across with a combativeness that gets right to heart of your question about the relavance of yoga practice.

Best Wishes
Noah

#5

YogiAdam,
My first real yoga teacher told me very early:
"Don’t listen to me out of faith; respect; trust; or love. Listen to me with your reason…"
It is true that, at least in the beginning of any spiritual path, our reason/ intellect must be satisfied that there is justification in listening to and believing in what we are learning.
So I say to you ‘BRAVO’, continue to seek answers that makes sense; life IS short, and don’t waste any of it on mumbo jumbo - there’s plenty of that out there.

Now to answer your question:
Samadhi is real. As you say quite correctly - “most of us have probably achieved that at one time or another”.
Where you are wrong is here: “One becomes no less impatient, or short tempered”.
Impatience and anger are only experienced when we feel [I]separate[/I] from the world around us. Every time you experience bliss, you feel [B]connected[/B] to all that is. So the more you cultivate that experience of bliss, the less you are able to feel the (so called) negative emotions. In my experience, meditating twice a day, for about 20 minutes at a time, very much reduces the possibility that I will feel impatient or short tempered.

Imagine if every person meditated - nurturing diligently the peaceful state of mind that comes from regular practice. The world would be a peaceful, more loving place, and corruption, violence, and greed would be eradicated.

The truth is that Samadhi is not something to be acquired, or attained - it is already in you. By meditating and practicing you are able to let go of the ‘stuff’ that gets in the way of your experience of it.

We live in a time of instant gratification. You can heat your food, communicate with someone on the other side of the planet, and find any piece of information almost instantly. So in a way it’s difficult - for many people - to accept the slow process that’s necessary for spiritual work.
You have a choice: live in mediocrity, and experience the same ups and downs emotionally and materially that most people accept as their destiny.
Or take control of your mind and body (consciousness itself). I know which I choose.

By the way:
[I]"If Samadhi is a plausible idea, then why so many interpretations? I fear that Samadhi may be an idea in Yoga that is based on faith and tradition… just like astrology, crystals, feng sheu, Jesus, tarot cards, enlightenment, Chi for power in martial arts, spells, miracles etc etc etc "[/I]
Samadhi is not an idea. Nor can it be compared to any of the things that you mentioned (although I believe that Jesus was an embodiment of Samadhi). The things you mention are tools mostly. Samadhi is a state of awareness.

With love,
Ben

#6

No, samadhi is not fiction. It is a definite stage of consciousness you reach during meditation. You have to satisfy the prelimary stages though as I told you in the other thread. I told you about pratyhara already, now I will tell you about the proceeding stages.

After pratyhara has subsided, meaning the visions you are getting have stopped. You can start dharana, i.e., you can assume your object of meditation(breath, mantra, symbol, chakras etc) Now, because your subconscious mind has already bombarded you with thoughts during pratyhara, now you will get much less thoughts and you will be able to focus on your object much more clearly. If you maintain this concentration without any interruption of thought you will reach the stage known as dhyana. In dhyana your consciousness will flow effortlessly towards your object without a single interruption of thought. After 40 min of uninterrupted concentration you will have reached the first stages of Samadhi.

Now the chances are you cannot maintain your focus for more than a few seconds. Most people cannot. This is why you do not experience Samadhi. Getting to Samadhi is one of the most difficult things you will ever do. It requires dedicated practice.

There is no faith involved here. It is based on the phenomenological research of countless yogis and they have mapped every stage very precisely. The changes in brain chemistry and brain waves can even be measured when a yogi enters these different stages. You should look at the research of Robert Monroe, a modern day consciousness explorer, whose also created very precise maps called focus-levels. The proof is in the pudding of course and the only way you are going to confirm the results of these researcher is if you do the training yourself. Give yourself 5 years at least of intense training. It’s not going to happen overnight.

Here is an exercise for you to gauge your current concentration power. Light a candle in front of you and put it about a metre way at eye level. Focus on the candle flame with your eyes open wihout blinking for about 2-3 min when your eyes start to water or close, close your eyes. You will now see the after-image of the candle flame. Keep the after image absolutely still in one place.
How long can you do it for before it moves or fades away?

#7

Before I answer, I just want to say thank you to Ben for a beautifully clear and thoughtful post. He gave you an awesome answer/reason, and I’m sure it answers at least part of your question:
[I]
“The truth is that Samadhi is not something to be acquired, or attained - it is already in you. By meditating and practicing you are able to let go of the ‘stuff’ that gets in the way of your experience of it.”[/I]

I didn’t have the patience to write anything so eloquent because I believed I already had in your other thread: …the function of samadhi? But also, because Adam, I believe you are fighting with yourself and I am not into motivating people, nor do I try to persuade anyone to meditate or do yoga. You have a lot to process of which meditation can play a part, like for example your attachment to logic and reason and dependence on knowledge.

Let’s put samadhi and meditation aside for a second and consider this: if you take everything that you know, that anyone knows, has known or will ever know, it will still all be a drop in the ocean next to what is unknown. Just think about that for a second. Then, take a look at the meaning of the word Vedanta, of which yoga is part of, which means…“the end of knowledge.” I ask you…do you want to go there? You don’t sound like it. It’s not logical or reasonable, which are, as Ben says and the Vedas too, “the ‘stuff’ that gets in the way of your experience of samadhi.” To me, that makes sense: to seek “experience” free of logic and reason, free of knowledge.

You’re just scratching the surface here. You have to dig deep, get in the game. I sincerely hope you’re not a quitter and that you will continue to inquire what meditation and yoga are all about, but most of all…practice! Let go of the “sitting for an hour of bliss” idea, because it’s not how it works. Meditation is like brushing your teeth: it’s something you do everyday so you can be happier and healthier in daily-life, not just while you’re doing the brushing.

peace Adam,
siva

#8

"If anything defies logic and reason, I quit holding onto it. It’s very, very simple."
If anything defies logic and reason? life defies logic and reason.

#9

There are lot of things in the World we do not understand maybe ever. This does not meant that they are fictions.

As for me, I do not really care what is fiction or not. If it should to come in to your life it WILL…

So just keep practicing and enjoy your benefits of yoga HERE and NOW:)

#10

[QUOTE=Brother Neil;32686]"If anything defies logic and reason, I quit holding onto it. It’s very, very simple."
If anything defies logic and reason? life defies logic and reason.[/QUOTE]

Ha Ha Lol. Thats funny. and good. :smiley:

#11

[QUOTE=Brother Neil;32686]"If anything defies logic and reason, I quit holding onto it. It’s very, very simple."
If anything defies logic and reason? life defies logic and reason.[/QUOTE]

Obviously you haven’t heard of Charles Darwin.

#12

I didn’t know that quote was attributed to Darwin. Regardless. It’s still funny whoseveritis.

#13

[QUOTE=The Scales;32758]I didn’t know that quote was attributed to Darwin. Regardless. It’s still funny whoseveritis.[/QUOTE]

Lol No, my point was that life only defies logic and reason, if you’ve never heard of Charles Darwin’s Evolution by natural selection. Charles Darwin has a wonderfully logic, and scientific explanation for life.

#14

We have moved far beyond the Darwinian model of evolution by natural selection in modern times. His explanation is an attempt to explain life, but his explanation is also highly flawed and fails to explain many things about life and how life evolves.

That said, I agree life does not defy logic and reason. There is a very precise logic to life.
The entire universe obeys logical principles, even the mind does. These principles can be studied and applied for our benefit.

I must say I really do get a bit frustrated with new-agers rejecting logic, science and reason. These are people who are just not prepared to think for themselves.

#15

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32766]We have moved far beyond the Darwinian model of evolution by natural selection in modern times. [/QUOTE]

I’m glad that you made the point that new-agers tend to abandon logic.

On the idea that science has moved far beyond the Darwin model, this is actually not true. Modern science continues to reinforced the Darwin’s model of evolution more and more, all the time. Admittedly Darwin got the genetics wrong, but he lived in an age when he couldn’t have know about genetics, as we only learnt about things like DNA in the 50’s. You will not find really any reputable modern scientist who reject evolution. The only “scientist” I’ve really come across, who do are “Christian scientist” and “Creation scientists”, which are clearly excluded as scientists, due to the fact that they have an agenda which necessitates them to deliberately distort facts. Obviously that’s not how science works. Sorry to disagree, but I had to make this point, as I love science so much :slight_smile:

#16

Homage to Prana.

Without the Prana there is no life. Prana is the Breath of Life. It is the animating principle. It makes all things live. The trees live because of prana. Flowers live because of prana. The insects move and live because of prana.

Modern Science doesn’t detect the vayu. They leave it out because they can’t see it with their instruments. So all scientific theories must eventually come to a stumbling point. They study the apparent bio chemical mechanical physical universe.

They don’t study the prana. They can’t study the prana for it is not apparent - being subtle. So the essential point is missing. This is why Life transcends logic and reason!

AH LA LA !!!

The Yogi can study the prana. The Yogi knows the prana.

If one gazes into the sky and can see the electric spinning swriling dancing white dots moving so quick that it appears they have tails. That one has seen the prana.

If one can sense the prana vibrating and moving and tingling within their body that one has felt the prana.

One comes to know the prana by working with it and meditating on it.

#17

[QUOTE=The Scales;32769]Modern Science doesn’t detect the vayu. They leave it out because they can’t see it with their instruments.[/QUOTE]

There’s an infinite number of things science can’t explain -Unicorns, the Tooth Fairly, God/Gods, astrology, feng shui, aromatherapy, Chi, ghosts, dragons, Jesus, Tom Cruise, spells, elves etc etc etc

Fortunately science is learning a lot about mental illness, and wishful thinking.

#18

How can they understand mental illness when they don’t know of karmas and prana?

How can they understand wishfull thinking if they don’t know that the entire universe is desire?

How can they understand their investigations into the physical universe without understanding or knowledge of the underlying subtleis, which govern the whole shebang?

Science without yoga is a dead end.

#19

[QUOTE=The Scales;32780]Science without yoga is a dead end.[/QUOTE]

You’ve got to be kidding!

#20

Hi folks,

Adam and surya deva,

What does science have to say about consciousness?

Science is a tool, and a very useful one at that, but what is it without the senses? Without the mind? Without knowledge, memory or thought? What are you without them? How does logic answer that?

siva

#21

Things like memory(and knowledge), thought patterns, emotional responses and urges, habits etc can all be explained in scientific terms, and really starts to make sense when you look at the evolution of the brain. The brain started out very, very simply and evolved into a reptilian brain, which is toward the back of our skull, and is responsible for things like anger, sex drive, hunger, and all the basic emotional stuff.

The more complex part of the brain is at the front and is where we cognise and rationalise. I like to use the example that if we want to go on a diet, it’s because our complex front brain has reasoned how it will improve our health, but when our diet fails, it’s cause our emotional rear brains hunger was too powerful to contend with.

There is a little unknown area that is consciousness. This thing that says, ‘I like tomato’ ‘I don’t like the colour blue’. The thing that makes me me and you you.

This is why I personally peruse a spiritual path. I know a few Psychiatrists and Psychologist who have told me about the importance spirituality can play in positive mental health. The thing I struggle with, however, is reconciling scientific discoveries with extraordinary claims. It’s a path of uncertainty and often when we don’t know the answers, we can be tempted to fill in the gaps with nonsense.

#22

Hi Adam.

I like your vibration, so I’m going to share with you a little about science and spirituality, and how they can reconcile each other. I do this because I see that it’s what you really really want - to reconcile your rational side with the side that just knows, without needing to understand how.

You mention two parts of the brain - I’m glad to see you have some understanding about this, because it’s very interesting.
However, the reptilian brain is not responsible for anger or any emotional stuff. You know this already deep down. The R-complex (reptilian brain) is actually more simple than that - just sex and survival. Stuff that lizards do - they don’t get emotional!
We have another part of the brain - mammalian brain / limbic system, which is responsible for emotions. It developed later in our evolution, when we became mammals.

And the neo-cortex, or frontal cortex, is the one that does the thinking - analysis, rational thinking, language.

There is NOT a little known area called the consciousness - not in the brain. The thing that says ‘I like tomato’, ‘I don’t like blue’, is the frontal cortex (it compares, and separates like and don’t like, tomato/potato, blue/red.

For your information - and this is where it all gets REALLY interesting - the R-complex part of our brain has it’s own center of awareness (in other words, it’s own MIND), which is in the gut. Hence, gut-instincts, butterflies in your tummy when nervous, etc.

The mammalian brain has it’s own mind - the heart.
The neo-cortex has it’s own mind - the head.

Our being consists of various minds, perhaps 12 of them altogether. Consciousness is the sum of all them, together.

Our health, and our spiritual vibration, depends on how COHERENT all of these minds are.

If you’re interested to know more about all this you can check my blog.

The point I want to make about all this is:
Spiritual traditions have, for thousands of years, been saying that our essential nature (our essence, our REALITY) is perfect.
Science is beginning to agree. When you look into the emerging sciences, like quantum physics, and especially epigenetics, you see that science without faith is utterly utterly useless.
I don’t mean religious faith. I mean a sense of wonder and awe, and the knowledge that our brain mind (neo-cortex), the one that wants to always UNDERSTAND everything from a rational point of view, can never do that.
Einstein said:
[I]“The rational mind is a faithful servant.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift.
We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift.”[/I]

Wise words indeed.

Love,
Ben

#23

[QUOTE=benralston;32790]science without faith is utterly utterly useless.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t know what that means. Science can be, and often is utterly practical.