[QUOTE=The Scales;32885]There is a vast underlying subtle reality that is by nature beyond the reach of modern science, mathematics, chemistry, and physics. [/QUOTE]
Downward Dogma 
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;32863]The problem is, humans don’t like to admit they don’t know something.[/QUOTE]
Hi Adam,
I am on a similar journey, so I can understand/ relate to how overwhelming everything can become!
Speaking for myself, what keeps me sane, is always reconnecting with my ‘gut’. Asking myself how does something make me feel, or how does is serve me. This does not involve looking to science, or rationalising or intellectualising…it simply means [U]feeling[/U].
I don’t claim to have all the answers, and let’s face it no scientist/ academic/ guru/ saint etc does. But what do they all do right? They all followed their own truth and path, which ultimately lead to their own Samadhi …and we are simply trying to find our path based on our truth.
I guess I’m lucky as I have ‘blind faith’, so no matter what I discover or learn, I ultimately know ‘my truth’, as I can feel it so intensely I can’t deny it.
Good luck, I do wish you all the best in your very curious and courageous journey.
[QUOTE=siva;32795]
. Just play, sing, be free, without attempting to know. That’s my unsolicited advice for today.
[/QUOTE]
Ha-ha! Good advise thought! That requires so much inner freedom, joy and “let go”! Be free! How many of us are free? We are so trapped in our mind!
Adam,
When you get to the Baghavad Gita, you will find a beautiful metaphor in an archer, Arjuna, who is the hero of the story and who represents you and where you are very well, I think. Think of knowledge, science, the mind, the brain, etc., as the drawing, holding and aiming of an arrow in the bow. They help you to read, feel and sense, the distance, angle, the height, you feel the wind on your cheek? But there’s only so much you can do to prepare…and there comes the point when you have to let that arrow go. That’s hard because once you do, it’s really over, isn’t it? There’s no more steering it. All the science comes to an end and nature takes over, and you won’t know for sure if the science is right until the arrow either finds its target or not. That’s exactly the point you’re at. You have the arrow drawn back and you want to take the shot, but you can’t let go, because you fear not having the verification, validation, acceptance, approval, justification, comfort, etc., all the externals that science provides and that you’re very much attached to, they’re gone (it’s also the simple beauty of sport I might add). You might be a fantastic archer, and you might be quite confident in the science, but you won’t know for sure. Isn’t that exciting? That’s where you are buddy.
Be now
The stronger warrior
Oh mighty Arjun,
Let thine arrow fly and Behold!
The yoga guideth thee.
-Krishna-
And that’s really the beginning of a spiritual journey, in my view. You listen, learn, practice, but then there will come the day when no one but yourself can take that next step for you, can tell you…“Don’t be afraid Adam…this way is the right way. This is the way to success.” No it won’t happen like that. You are going to be completely, 100% alone, without science, without knowledge, without your brain, and you’re going to love it.
peace brother,
siva
[QUOTE=omamana;32904]
Speaking for myself, what keeps me sane, is always reconnecting with my ?gut?. Asking myself how does something make me feel, or how does is serve me. This does not involve looking to science, or rationalising or intellectualising…it simply means [U]feeling[/U].
[/QUOTE]
Beautiful truth
[QUOTE=siva;32947]Adam,
When you get to the Baghavad Gita, you will find a beautiful metaphor in an archer, Arjuna, who is the hero of the story and who represents you and where you are very well, I think. Think of knowledge, science, the mind, the brain, etc., as the drawing, holding and aiming of an arrow in the bow. They help you to read, feel and sense, the distance, angle, the height, you feel the wind on your cheek? But there’s only so much you can do to prepare…and there comes the point when you have to let that arrow go. That’s hard because once you do, it’s really over, isn’t it? There’s no more steering it. All the science comes to an end and nature takes over, and you won’t know for sure if the science is right until the arrow either finds its target or not. That’s exactly the point you’re at. You have the arrow drawn back and you want to take the shot, but you can’t let go, because you fear not having the verification, validation, acceptance, approval, justification, comfort, etc., all the externals that science provides and that you’re very much attached to, they’re gone (it’s also the simple beauty of sport I might add). You might be a fantastic archer, and you might be quite confident in the science, but you won’t know for sure. Isn’t that exciting? That’s where you are buddy.
Be now
The stronger warrior
Oh mighty Arjun,
Let thine arrow fly and Behold!
The yoga guideth thee.
-Krishna-
And that’s really the beginning of a spiritual journey, in my view. You listen, learn, practice, but then there will come the day when no one but yourself can take that next step for you, can tell you…“Don’t be afraid Adam…this way is the right way. This is the way to success.” No it won’t happen like that. You are going to be completely, 100% alone, without science, without knowledge, without your brain, and you’re going to love it.
peace brother,
siva[/QUOTE]
More beautiful truth!
Science without faith is pointless. What do I mean when I say that?
I mean that science can only explain so much - actually, very little. The BIG questions remain unanswered. We are no nearer answering those questions, questions like:
- How is life possible?
- How does the single cell that is created from the egg and sperm at fertilization know what to do next - what is the organizing force that allows that cell to become a human being?
- How does the seed grow into an oak tree?
- What is the power that keeps the planets in their orbits, perfectly?
To dedicate a lifetime purely to science, is a cold, lonely, futile path. To need a rational explanation for everything you do, say, and believe in is equally cold and lonely. Many scientists come to understand this later in life.
If you investigate, you will find that the greatest scientists - like Einstein and Bohm… are deeply spiritual, faithful people. The REASON for their greatness was thay they balanced their need for rational understanding with intuitive wisdom and faith.
Investigate this and you will see - start with Einstein.
LOVE,
Ben
[QUOTE=omamana;32904]Speaking for myself, what keeps me sane, is always reconnecting with my ?gut?. Asking myself how does something make me feel, or how does is serve me. This does not involve looking to science, or rationalising or intellectualising…it simply means [U]feeling[/U]…[/QUOTE]
Fantastic! This is so refreshing. This reminds me of what Dr Phil always says -“would you rather be right all the timer or happy?” "what’s more important, winning an argument or being happy?"
I am gaining insight to understand that in order to be happy, you need to stop searching for truth, and start looking for happiness… makes sense.
It makes the journey very difficult when people make claims that they know everything. No scientist or philosopher would claim to know everything. I’m really glad to hear that there are people who practice the yoga, who are honest, mature and intelligent enough, not to claim to hold the answers.
[QUOTE=benralston;32984]More beautiful truth!
Science without faith is pointless. What do I mean when I say that?
I mean that science can only explain so much - actually, very little. The BIG questions remain unanswered. We are no nearer answering those questions, questions like[/QUOTE]
Science without faith is not pointless, your ego just doesn’t like the idea that you can’t know it all. Science is limited, so faith comes along and fills in the missing gaps with bullshit that is just made up. It seems like so many humans just can’t handle saying “I don’t know”.
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;32997]Science without faith is not pointless, your ego just doesn’t like the idea that you can’t know it all. Science is limited, so faith comes along and fills in the missing gaps with bullshit that is just made up. It seems like so many humans just can’t handle saying “I don’t know”.[/QUOTE]
You completely misunderstand me. But I can’t be bothered to explain anymore, because you don’t listen.
Over and out.
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;32996]you need to stop searching for truth, and start looking for happiness… makes sense.[/QUOTE]
I’m afraid I can never stop searching for the truth Adam, for me it reflects growth, personal development, and humility.
But I am happy in my search for truth, which as you have rightly said is also very important!
[QUOTE=benralston;32998]You completely misunderstand me. But I can’t be bothered to explain anymore, because you don’t listen.
Over and out.[/QUOTE]
I do listen, and I actually know where your coming form, cause I used to be a “Christian scientist” (contradiction in terms lol), it’s just that we don’t agree. I don’t think that this is about either parties misunderstanding, we just fundamentally disagree.
I would like to apologies for my last message though. I reread it, and I think it’s a bit strident and aggressive. I’m all about kind, useful speech, but sometimes my passion can get the better of me.
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;33001]I do listen, and I actually know where your coming form, cause I used to be a “Christian scientist” (contradiction in terms lol), it’s just that we don’t agree. I don’t think that this is about either parties misunderstanding, we just fundamentally disagree.
I would like to apologies for my last message though. I reread it, and I think it’s a bit strident and aggressive. I’m all about kind, useful speech, but sometimes my passion can get the better of me.[/QUOTE]
Ok, apology accepted. Thank you, no hard feelings.
I think perhaps my language was also a little too hard - I don’t mean that Science is pointless. I also LOVE it.
But it’s like trying to live your whole life using only one hand. Very limiting.
However, if you apply science AND spirituality TOGETHER… then you can really get somewhere.
After all, science is the search for TRUTH - for the underlying reality behind existence - right? Can we agree on that?
And Spirituality is what? also the search for TRUTH!! Right?
So they are trying to do the same thing, but simply from different angles.
Now, as you said yourself Adam - ‘you can’t know it all’. That’s where faith is necessary. There are certain things that our neo-cortex brain will never understand.
Those very things can be known through the wisdom and love, and faith, that is the very purpose of spiritual practice.
By all means, try to apply a rational, scientific understanding to life. I do!
But to demand a scientific explanation for everything makes you an atheist, and it’s really, in my opinion, a foolish, pointless belief system.
Einstein said something like:
“There are two ways of looking at life - one is that there are no miracles.
The other is that everything is a miracle.”
I choose the second way. But I dont’ stop trying to explain the miracles either!
[QUOTE=benralston;33006]Now, as you said yourself Adam - ‘you can’t know it all’. That’s where faith is necessary.[/QUOTE]
I understand what your saying. I know we will disagree on this because you are saying that faith takes over where science ends (if I’ve understood you correctly), and I’m saying faith is not truth. That’s why it’s called faith, cause we can’t know. Faith is what we believe. It is not fact.
Let me use an example to clearly explain,
-Let’s say we walk through a new house, and we look at all the new rooms. All the walls in the rooms are painted different colours The kitchen is painted orange, the hall way is cream, the master bedroom is light blue, the bathroom is yellow. But a door to one of the rooms is locked. We don’t know what colour the walls are painted. using our knowledge of the material world, we can determine what colours the rooms are all painted, except for the room that is locked. This is where some people would like to use faith to answer the mysteries of the unknown. Christians say the room is red, Muslims say the room is grey, Hindus say the room is lilac, Jews say it’s black… they have all gone beyond what science discovered, but what they have discovered is not a truth. They just have faith in the colour that their particular faith asserts. Some of the faithful even have the arrogance to brag to the scientist, because through science, he was unable to answer this question.
Do you see my point? Have I made it clear? I do understand your point, I just disagree. It’s fine to disagree.
Please don’t confuse faith with spirituality. Faith is dangeorus. Do you actually need evidence for this look at the last 2000 years of history to see how dangerous faith is.
Spirituality is what we validate through direct experience. It is all about our own personal development and realising our highest potentials. There is no faith in spirituality.
Yogiadam only accepts empiricism and rejects logic. So he is limited to only what the senses can know. If we functioned like that in the real world we would get nowhere. I would see smoke in the distance issuing from a home, and rather than using my logic and saying “There house is on fire, calll the fire brigade” you would have to go there to see the fire to know there is fire. Another example could be cooking rice and checking to see if they are cooked by checking a few, rather than using my logic and saying, “a few are cooked, therefore they’re all cooked” you would have to check every grain of rice once by one to see if it is cooked.
If we were strict empiricists we would not have even had the curiosity to build a wheel. We would have just said, “What is the empirical proof that this wheel will work” It is due the limited empirical ways of modern science that we discover things at such a painstreaking slow pace. Fortunately science does have a place for rational proof. Most of general relativity was based on rational proofs. Ditto for string theory which is almost completely theoretical.
If you want to know things beyond the empirical you need rational methods. I mean who has ever an atom or a quark? They are completely theoretical entities. We infer them base on the effects we can see but have not actually seen an atom, much less a quark.
So if we can use logic to conceptualize invisible entities like atoms, I see no problems to use logic to develop a metaphysics to conceptualize invisible entities like lifeforces. You can’t have double standards where you accept logic sometimes and at others times you reject it.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33009]I would see smoke in the distance issuing from a home, and rather than using my logic and saying “There house is on fire, calll the fire brigade” you would have to go there to see the fire to know there is fire. [/QUOTE]
You can’t know it’s a house on fire! It could be the fire department burning off. I’d call the fire department, but I’m not going to tell them a bloody house is on fire, when I don’t know. That’s just assumption.
Well one thing is clear that you would infer there is a fire. Otheriwse why would you call at all.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33018]Well one thing is clear that you would infer there is a fire. Otheriwse why would you call at all.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I would infer there was a fire. Usually when there’s smoke there’s a fire. I would assume there was a fire, but I wouldn’t KNOW there was a fire, unless I saw the fire, and I certainly wouldn’t KNOW what was on fire… I’d hate to be someone reading this post from our current conversation. They’d go “what the f@#k are these people talking about a fire for on a yoga forum?!” lol
You would know based on the known laws of the world that if you see a particular kind of smoke that there is fire. Similarly if I drop something from the top of a building it will always fall and I know this because of the known law of gravity. Do you really need empirical proof that the object will fall? No, logical proof is enough.
We knew the earth went around the sun long before we empirically discovered it as far as back as the time of the Greeks from the way the shadow was on being cast. From that it was easy to infer the earth was going around the earth.
Similarly we knew about atoms long before they were empirically discovered again through logical argument. The Indian logicians argued thus: If matter is continious(infinitely divisble) and not made up of indivisible parts then we could split up a mustard seed into infinite parts then use those infinite parts to build a mountain. This is impossible though because one begins with a mustard seed and ends up with a moutain. Therefore matter is not continious but made up of indivisible parts.
It is clear that rational methods are just as valid as empirical methods and they can be used to discover the same thing empiricism can. They are much more faster and take you to the same conclusions. So why wait for empirical proof when you can rationally prove something?
Have a bit of faith in reason 
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33022]Do you really need empirical proof that the object will fall? No, logical proof is enough.[/QUOTE]
I suppose I do use a bit of faith. I have faith in my partner. I will never have scientific evidence that my girlfriend is faithful, but I trust her, which is faith. I also have experienced a massive change in my life since the practice of yoga, and that’s enough to keep practicing and learning everyday, and I have faith I will discover more. I’m under the impression that my arguments I have presented, may make me sound a little bit like a science robot, and less like the human that I am.
You are very much human Adam, hence your interest in life, the spirit, and science…all of which can happily and peacefully sit next to each other