Is Truth Violent?

Spirituality
#21

Try to Be good.And Don’t tell lies. :slight_smile: It really is that simple.

There is something called being economical with the truth but even that is a kind of deception.If you are knowingly deceving someone for your own self-gain or self-image, selfishness then well you’re lieing and not practicing yoga.Is it in someone’s interest to know about something? Should one tell them they’ve got cancer yes, that their bestfriend cheated on them-yes. The list goes on.I can’t actually think of a reason to justify a lie if one if one is being hounded left/right/centre about it.Most folk will lie because of self-gain or b/c they believe they mistakenly beleive they or the pereson they are lieing to are going to be worse off because of knowng the truth.I simply hate lieing esp. if a person is asked a direct unambigous question.Talking in riddles is also potentially misleading or trying to be ecconomical with truth but it can involve a kind of deception b/c the person can often mistake themselves to know what truths are best for that person.I don’t think there is much point moralising over it either.Even telling a kid santa is on balance i think nonsense…If you don’t believe it yourself then why tell a kid it?.What good is it going to do them to tell such nonsense.Just because other people tell and practice it .It rarely benefits the person telling the lie nor does it benefit the person being lied to.I can’t off-hand think of an example where by you could try and justify it perhaps to save a life but it’s still lieing.Most cases of lieing are probably quite ordinary and not extraordinary in order to save 500 thousand people’s lives say.That’s to say most people lie for selfish reasons.And what people can mistakenly for altriusitc lieing can often be entirely selfish.A lie is a lie even if it’s deliberately dressed up in a riddle.People often think they know what’s best for another. The chances are they don’t and are usualy only protecting themselves…i.e it most often done for selfish reasons.Yes,there are examples but these are unsual. Most people lie about the small insignficant things.they mistakenly deem significant in their consequences.That is my take on it and my own experience of it.

I also believe in a kind of moral relativism too but lieing is what it is no matter what way you can try and couch it.I don’t think a moral discussion over whether any given action or example of lieing , and there hundreds, is really or typically that helpful either but it is lieing and it’s usually done for selfish reasons when you examine most cases closely enough.The consequences of not telling the truth or llieiing about something if one is asked is, in most cases, obvious enough.

One lie will tend to engender another and lead to more lieing.I personally hate lieing. I cannot stand it unless for example 5000 people have gun to their head.But even then one could say one should’nt lie.The challenge then is not lieing.Most lies are based on selfish interests.This might not be in some cases but most of them are when examined properly enoough.

Which one is higher? Truth or Ahimsa.This is just your mind getting bogged down in concepts and trying to endlessly categorize, sub-divide and spiritualize/moralize.They can be related i supposse .The logical premise in your statement here seems flawed enough- that one is higher. They are just different concepts but all come from the mind.And the mind in yoga is just a projection and your own creation.Telling lies is often a kind of violence because it is usually done for selfish reasons…

#22

I generally agree honesty is the best policy and I am one of the most honest of people I know. However, there is a way of telling the truth, which experience has taught me and what I have learned from other peoples experiences. For example, why martyr yourself telling your truth, for instance Jesus declaring he was the son of god. Could he not have kept this to himself? If he did, he would probably would not have been crucified. In my opinion this is not a wise way of telling the truth.

Krishna’s character in the Mahabharata is probably the best example of how telling lies can be used for greater purpose. Krishna tells many lies during the great war to defeat the enemy e.g., he tells Yudhishtra to tell his guru Dronacharya(who he is fighting against) that his son Ashwadhama has been slain. In actual fact an elephant by the name of Ashwadhama was slain, but Krishna deceives Dronacharya into thinking it is his son. This causes Dronacharya to lose faith completely and stop fighting, seizing that opportunity he is slain. Bad? If they played fair and square, then the Pandavas(Krishna’s side) would have lost the war, because Dronacharya was a formidable commander in chief. This would have meant the dark side would have won.

There is another example where Krishna deceives. Duryodhana(the chief enemy king) is going to be given a boon by his mother of invincibility. His mother had blindfolded herself from the very first day she married his father(the blind king) because she felt it was the only way to make the relationship fair. So she has not even seen her son Duryodhana, but today she was going to take her blindfold off for the first time and grant him the great power she had built up. So she asks Duryodhana to come naked to her without Duryodhana really knowing why. On the way, Krishna meets Duryodhana walking naked to his mother, and he immediately realizes what is happening, so he plays a trick on Duryodhana, “What are you doing Duryodhana, you are going in front of your mother naked, have you no shame” Duryodhana immediately felt the shame, so he decided to cover up his groin area and appear before his mother. The result was that he received the power of invincibility all over his body, except his groin area! Later, when Duryodhana has a to-death mace duel with Bhima(his arch rival among the Pandavas) he proves to be undefeatable, Bhima not realizing that he has been given an unfair advantage of the power of invincibility. So Krishna plays another trick, he tells Bhima to hit him in the groin area with his mace. However, that is against the rules of mace combat, so Duryodhana cries foul, but eventually meets his end by being repeatedly hit in his groin. Bad? If Krishna had not played those tricks and told those lies, Duryodhana would have been invincible and would have won the war and unrighteousness would have prevailed on the planet.

The moral of the story is that it is not always wise to tell the truth. It is generally good for oneself to tell the truth, but one use should use truth as a guideline for their greater good. This means you might need to twist the truth a little, tell it indirectly or even tell a lie.

Just be wise when you apply the yamas in your life. If you treat them like morals you are going to eventually come up with contradictions.

#23

Most people lie about silly stuff which they think or deem to be important but it really is’nt. They are usually trying to protect themselves or some other person or interest more than the person they’re lieing to, in most cases.That perception that they know what is best is just their own frequently flawed and selfish assessment.

( I intended to vastly crop that post above as I’ve repeated myself but editing a post after half an hour seems not possible.) As you can tell, lieing simply ‘does my nut in!!’ .You can always pick out a crazy example but most are fairly ordinary & simple.

#24

Yeah, I know people lie about the silliest of things. It does my nut in as well. Like I said generally honesty is the best policy - just be wise about it though.

There is a famous example of a contradiction being shown to Kant, when he tries to rationally justify some of the commandments in the bible e.g., “Do not lie” and “Do not murder” Suppose an innocent victim is being chased by an axe wielding maniac that is intent on murdering them, and they run past you and hide near you. The axe wielding maniac then passes you by and asks you the where the victim went. Now, if you tell the truth and point the victim’s hiding place and then allow him to be murdered you are an accomplice in his murder and therefore you are contradicting the commandment of not murdering. If you tell a lie and point the maniac in another direction, then you are contradicting the commandment of not lying.

#25

Heard one like that i believe, just told a litle bit differently.

Or you could say ‘I’m not telling you’.Most cases are not like that at all; Life is’nt at risk.Most are of a hum-drum selfish kind where they are protecting other interests exclusively or certainly more than the person or those being lied to .Most cases, there is no quandary or complexity to it.Most lies have a long-term damaging effect or value and constitue a betrayal of trust that can never be properly repaired or remedied again.Once a lie is being told again and again then any negative effects just get worse and worse and/or they help to fertilize more further lies.Once you’ve killed ten people, the eleventh does’nt mean as much or anything…The first is like the seed.The example you take also assumes a perspective that in itself could be mistaken.

#26

…i.e The assessment could be flawed in some way.That in itself seems to take you back into a kind of moral relativism.

It’s like you are trying to understand karma on an indivdual level and it cannot be fathomed;the chain of cause and effect is infinte and not necessarily logical.The intentions of the person does of course count.

#27

Or you could say ‘I’m not telling you’.

To an axe wielding maniac? :wink:

#28

If one has been living in the darkness of one’s unconsciousness, clinging to all kinds of self created dreams which from birth till the present moment one has been mistaking as reality - then the realization of Truth always carries a certain violence of it’s own. All of one’s assumptions, conclusions, theories, beliefs, philosophies, doctrines, creeds, with even a drop of clear seeing - all of this is shattered to dust. For the ego, it can be a painful experience, it is a form of death. In Zen - that is why it has been called the Great Death. But we always think that destruction is something negative. It is not true, that which is destructive is also tremendously purifying. That is why inner transformation is both destructive and purifying - the old has to die completely before a new resurrection can happen. It is the same kind of transformation that happens when a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly. If one looks at what is happening to the caterpillar in the cacoon, one will be stunned. It is literally disassembling and re-assembling itself. Not even a single cell of the caterpillar is left. Every cell is made into a different kind of cell.
It is a destructive process, but that is also the stuff which transformation is made of.
In a way, it is violent. In another way, it is a revolution in your very being which brings about a new way of perceiving life which is far more fulfilling, wholesome, and filled with contentment.

#29

[QUOTE=Giza;74791]It was a general question, but generally speaking if one has compassion for another person he wishes for them to be happy; that often means confronting painful issues - BUT Patanjali has a precept against causing pain. One thing I’m not clear on was, were these precepts intended to be mere guidelines to follow, or Moses-style, “these are the rules in every circumstance” commandments? Did I read somewhere that raja yogis took vows to uphold the Yamas and Niyamas?
So if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that Ahimsa is higher than Satya, and sometimes impressing an understanding of Satya is just a lost cause, so we shouldn’t try. Correct?[/QUOTE]

There is not like satya is a lost cause. Ahimsa comes first in yama and niyama, then comes satya.

They both rely on each other. You should follow both as both is important but at some crossroad you will come to a point where telling the truth inevitably leads to himsa then its up to you to judge what would be best based on that particular situation. And whatever you do will give you experience. There is no guideline how to do for every specific situation, there are different kinds of people and you cant interact with all in the same manner. Some like to talk lots and some would be annoyed if you talk to much. So just experiment and get that experience and knowledge from that. Whatever you do the road will take you to the same place in the end.

Also realize that it is your mind that wants explanation for everything the mind doesnt like to be uncertain. Truth is beyond explanation.

#30

[QUOTE=Giza;74752]In an age when people lie not just to others, but to themselves as well, being confronted with reality can be quite painful for some people; so, is telling the truth an act of violence? If so, which principle is higher, ahimsa or satya?[/QUOTE]

gotta find the balance between Ahimsa (non-harmong) and Satya (truthfulness) … if the truth is voilates ahimsa - it is better to keep to yourself:)

before saying something consider: is it thruth? is it Kind? and it is nessesary to say?