Is Yoga Hinduism?

Spirituality Religion
#81

A spent a good chunk of the night last night reading the Psalms and the Songs of Solomon in the bible as Asuri recommended. I soon got very tired when I got to Pslam 40 of reading the same repetitive stuff again and again. “And then god said, god please punish the sinners, god give me this, god give me that, and god gave me this and gave me that” There is nothing even close to enlightening here. I learn nothing about space, time, causality, the nature of the soul, how to be happy and loving, as I do when I read Hindu scriptures.

The songs of Solomon were like reading love songs to god. Which god? The god of the OT who thirsts for blood sacrifices and kills people with impunity. The same love song could have been written for a king and it would not have made an iota of difference. What is there of spiritual value here for a seeker?

EDIT to add:

What you are doing is looking at isolated examples and literal translations. You need to look at the bigger picture of the bible and christians. You chose not to because it would prove our point.

You say this to every bit of damning evidence that I show for Christianity. It is tiresome. I showed you a vast history of crusades, inquisitions, witch burning and you said
"isolated example" I then showed you how major Christian preachers decried Oprah Winfery and called her satanic for saying there were many paths to god. You said to this, “isolated example” I then showed you the amazing amount of violence and hatred in the bible where the OT god is killing people left, right and centre and you said "isolated examples"
I then showed you the Christian fundamentalist and missionary activity in India being sponsored by the clergy itself and sponsored by powerful Christian authorities. You said, "isolated examples"
Now recently I have shown you how Christians in the US senate itself shouted down a Hindu prayer crying “Abomination” And a video showing how Christian missionaries of the Southen Baptist Church are engaging in missionary activity and propoganda in Iraq. Again you say, “isolated example”

Based on the masses of evidence presented, if there is any “isolated examples” here, it is yourself who claim that these are religions of peace, tolerance and love. You have so far given no evidence to back this up, other than your faith that they are. The reality does not back you up.

#82

Surya,

No one is calling for censorship. I don’t know where you got that idea.

You state you share a critical hindu perspective on abrahamic religions and the western view of yoga. I do not think most Hindus share your intolerant view.

It’s funny, in many ways, you have made me feel dirty and a thief for practicing yoga and being raised a catholic. (Of which I am not now, but that is beside the point)
Is yoga’s origin from India (Hindu), yes. Do you own it, no. I would think those who wrote your ancient texts would want that knowledge shared with any and all who want to take that path. Yoga has helped and transformed so many all over the world, it has evolved into something so much more and something the ancient sages would be very proud of.

You know much Surya, but you don’t know all. You have knowledge but not wisdom. Listening and learning from others on this forum and gaining insight into their religion, their life, their perspective. This is wisdom. Wisdom comes with age. It comes with being able to see the full picture and both sides of an issue. Have I known young people that are wise? Yes! And I soak up their knowledge like a sponge.

An example might be: It seems to me that the bible is filled with messages that are contradictory to how it is taught. Can someone who is a christian explain how I should interpret the bible? By asking this way, you encourage meaningful dialogue and learning. No one is put on the offensive. Just my suggestion!

#83

Most all agreed that there is a history of violence, violence we are ashamed of.

The world is not looking for you apology for what the Abrahamic religions have done, but they are looking for actual actions which bring about reform in these religions. We see no evidence of major change at all in these religions, in most parts of the world that religions are still doing what they have been doing for millenias.

It is my contention that as long as the Abrahamic religions continue to exist on this planet there will be no peace at all on this planet. These religions have been a curse on this planet.

#84

No one is calling for censorship. I don’t know where you got that idea.

Lotusgirl, as much as I love you, I think sometimes you are wearing blinkers:

Originally posted by Asuri:

David, please take note. You wouldn’t let a skinhead do this.

You state you share a critical hindu perspective on abrahamic religions and the western view of yoga. I do not think most Hindus share your intolerant view.

I have already shown in several threads most Hindu do in fact share my views, including some of the most respected Gurus of the 20th century, such as Swami Vivekananda and Swami Dayananda. I recently watched a synopsium of Hindu gurus convened in 2009 on the wake of terror activity in India, who echoed the same sentiments.

I think you have to stop living in denial and accept this is a majority Hindu viewpoint.

Is yoga’s origin from India (Hindu), yes. Do you own it, no. I would think those who wrote your ancient texts would want that knowledge shared with any and all who want to take that path. Yoga has helped and transformed so many all over the world, it has evolved into something so much more and something the ancient sages would be very proud of.

If you mean by evolving the plagiarism by the West of Yoga then it has not evolved at all. Yoga still remains largely unchanged. The same postures, the same breathing exercises, same philosophy, the same classical form.

In the end theft is theft. If I take something of yours and then use it for another purpose are you going to say, “Oh, I should be very proud, for he has taken my thing and evolved it” No, I have stolen your thing, and misapplied it :smiley:

You know much Surya, but you don’t know all. You have knowledge but not wisdom. Listening and learning from others on this forum and gaining insight into their religion, their life, their perspective. This is wisdom. Wisdom comes with age. It comes with being able to see the full picture and both sides of an issue. Have I known young people that are wise? Yes! And I soak up their knowledge like a sponge.

No wisdom does not come from humans. It comes from ones own intellect.

This is an age of reason and science Lotusgirl. This is not the age of faith. I invite you into the 21st century.

#85

f you mean by evolving the plagiarism by the West of Yoga then it has not evolved at all.

Quote:
No one is calling for censorship. I don’t know where you got that idea.
Lotusgirl, as much as I love you, I think sometimes you are wearing blinkers:

Originally posted by Asuri:

David, please take note. You wouldn’t let a skinhead do this.

Thank you Surya Deva, love you too.

I cannot speak for Asuri. I can only speak for myself. I know I don’t like the continual bashing of Christians or any religion for that matter. Being narrow minded in ones view can be likened to how a skinhead would view, say someone of color. A judgement that has been based on misguided facts and perceptions.

Quote:
You state you share a critical hindu perspective on abrahamic religions and the western view of yoga. I do not think most Hindus share your intolerant view.
I have already shown in several threads most Hindu do in fact share my views, including some of the most respected Gurus of the 20th century, such as Swami Vivekananda and Swami Dayananda. I recently watched a synopsium of Hindu gurus convened in 2009 on the wake of terror activity in India, who echoed the same sentiments.

I think you have to stop living in denial and accept this is a majority Hindu viewpoint.

It is a majority viewpoint held by those who are like you. You have unknowingly narrowed you view of a much larger issue by only aligning yourself with those who are like minded. I know you don’t agree with my take on ‘isolated examples’ but they are. There are just as many examples that oppose points you make.

I Yoga still remains largely unchanged. The same postures, the same breathing exercises, same philosophy, the same classical form.

In the end theft is theft. If I take something of yours and then use it for another purpose are you going to say, “Oh, I should be very proud, for he has taken my thing and evolved it” No, I have stolen your thing, and misapplied it

But don’t you see the beauty in yoga’s global appeal? How can it be wrong when it helps so many? I know many who care little about what yoga is really about and are only in it to make money. Westerners and Easterners alike. I feel this is wrong, but I also know that the majority of the people I know in my yoga community look at it the way I do.

Again I go to my point that the ancient sages would be pleased that yoga has helped so many and it’s practice has grown exponentially. This is looking at the bigger picture!

No wisdom does not come from humans. It comes from ones own intellect.

This is an age of reason and science Lotusgirl. This is not the age of faith. I invite you into the 21st century.

But wisdom comes from understanding. Understanding how to put to use, effectively and efficiently, what you have learned. Knowledge is cumulative and experiences are cumulative. Together they give us wisdom if used correctly.

While it is the age of science and reason, there is not need to exclude faith. They can coexist.

#86

SuryaDeva,
More knowledge does not mean correct knowledge. You see in others what you are yourself. This is what one realizes in deep meditation. But that doesn’t seem to be your path.

As a self-appointed attorney for Hinduism, you are also eagerly occupying the Judge’s chair. You quoted Swami Vivekanand, the greatest idealogue for Hiduism, but didn’t catch the soul of what he was saying. You don’t even realize how astray and ridiculous you have made your own thread.

What Yogis see as “relative reality” until the Absolute is realized, doesn’t seem to be your reality. When are you going to return to Yoga? When is this over-drive of buddhi going to make a turn around and stay facing the soul and not obliterating it?

Most of us here are Yogis, (a few like me Hindus too) and we have tolerance for you and patience and we don’t wish to run out of it.

#87

suhas, lotusgirla and everyone else,

I commend you all on your patience thus far with Surya. Amazing. I have also tried in vain to communicate with him, but he’s in a bubble, kind of a fragile state.

Surya doens’t DO yoga. He only thinks it, and he’s frightened that it won’t be enough to bring him to yoga realization and he’s acting out. Very smart but also kinda of lazy. In a way he’s crying he’s been let down, yet he doesn’t have the courage to put his brain aside for an hour and find yoga through experience. He’s waiting for someone with siddhis to show him how, so he has proof before he begins. He doesn’t yet know he’ll have to begin without it. It’s like Arjun who is paralyzed and unable to act.

surya,

Krishna would say…you can’t control the arrow after letting it go. That’s what you would like but it doesn’t work that way.

You only address the questions you have an answer to and seem to avoid the rest. You have avoided mine and i know why. I thought my analogy to your steam engine comment would really help you. Did you get it?

In some ways I think your trouble is only semantic, mental block and I am confident you will one day get to the root of it. I only hope you won’t amass another lifetime of karma before then. You have enough to burn already and don’t need any more.

peace,
siva

#88

I cannot speak for Asuri. I can only speak for myself.

You said that you had not seen anybody call for censorship. I was giving you an example.

It is a majority viewpoint held by those who are like you. You have unknowingly narrowed you view of a much larger issue by only aligning yourself with those who are like minded.

It is a majority Hindu viewpoint. On Yoga, the official body that represents Hindus in America has released a statement saying Yoga is Hinduism.

I know you don’t agree with my take on ‘isolated examples’ but they are. There are just as many examples that oppose points you make.

That is because they are not isolated examples. It characterizes the majority.
You are speaking for libreal Christians and isolated sects who are a minority.

But don’t you see the beauty in yoga’s global appeal? How can it be wrong when it helps so many? I know many who care little about what yoga is really about and are only in it to make money. Westerners and Easterners alike. I feel this is wrong, but I also know that the majority of the people I know in my yoga community look at it the way I do.

It is wrong when you take something and not acknowledge the source. It may have helped many people, but they have not given anything back to the originators, the Hindu religion. The official body that represents Yoga in America has released a statement that Yoga has nothing to do with Hinduism and that Yoga is older than Hinduism. This is wrong.

Again I go to my point that the ancient sages would be pleased that yoga has helped so many and it’s practice has grown exponentially. This is looking at the bigger picture!

They would not be pleased that they have been omitted outside of its history. As much as Newton would not be pleased if India took his theory of gravitation, and omitted out. The West has had a history of constant plagiarism against India. It has taken a long time to even acknowledge that the zero was invented in India. That credit was given to the arabs not too long ago. How much did you learn about Indian mathematicians when you were at school? Probably none. Ironic, considering the decimal system is an Indian invention and algerba, trigonometry, geometry, quadratics, binary numbers and calculus are all Indian inventions.

Many intellectuals have pointed out the Western has downplayed Indian history and its contributions. Now they are doing the same with Yoga. The difference is Hindus are no longer letting it happen.

But wisdom comes from understanding. Understanding how to put to use, effectively and efficiently, what you have learned. Knowledge is cumulative and experiences are cumulative. Together they give us wisdom if used correctly.

While it is the age of science and reason, there is not need to exclude faith. They can coexist.

Faith cannot coexist with science and reason. Faith is believing in something without having any evidence for it. Such as believing that jews are a subhuman race and should be eradicated. If you justify faith you justify anybody believing in anything and doing anything. In science one has to provide reason for their statements and support it with evidence.

Every statement carries a burden of proof. Much like your statement of “isolated examples” You have not fulfilled the burden of proof. On the other hand I have provided
dozens of examples to justify my statement. I have a stronger case than you.

Faith is no virtue whatsoever. It is in fact a virus that infects the mind and distorts ones perception. We all eventually grow out of faith as we grow up dropping beliefs on the tooth fairy, santa claus and the boogeyman.

Like I said I welcome you into the 21st century.

#89

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;36495]SuryaDeva,
More knowledge does not mean correct knowledge. You see in others what you are yourself. This is what one realizes in deep meditation. But that doesn’t seem to be your path. [/quote]

It doesn’t seem to be your path either Suhas. Do you see in my what you are yourself?

What Yogis see as “relative reality” until the Absolute is realized, doesn’t seem to be your reality.

It doesn’t seem to be your reality either Suhas.

As a self-appointed attorney for Hinduism, you are also eagerly occupying the Judge’s chair. You quoted Swami Vivekanand, the greatest idealogue for Hiduism, but didn’t catch the soul of what he was saying.

So you recognize he is the greatest idealogue for Hinduism. Then listen to what he has to say on Islam:

Here is what some of the most prominent Hindu gurus had to say on Abrahamic religions:

Swami Vivekananda

Swamiji said "people who deny the efficiency of any investigation into religion seem to me somewhat to be contradicting themselves. For instance the Christian claims that his religion is the only true one, because it was revealed to so and so. The Mohammedan makes the same claims for his religion; his is the only true one because it was revealed to so and so…

“The books fighting among themselves cannot be the judges. Decidedly then we have to admit that there is something higher than we have to admit that there is something more universal than these books, something higher that all the ethical codes that are in the world, something which can judge between the strength of inspirations of different nations. Whether we declare it boldly clearly or not - it is evident that here we appeal to reason.” (The Complete Work of Swami Vivekananda, Vol I 368-69).

How ‘enlightened’ was Mohammad?

Mohammed claimed that the Angel Gabriel came to him in a cave one day and took him on the heavenly horse, Harak and he visited the heavens. But with all that Mohammed spoke some wonderful truths. If you read the Koran, you find the most wonderful truths mixed with superstitions. How will you explain this? That man was inspired, no doubt, but that inspiration was as it were stumbled upon. He was not a trained Yogi, and did not know the reason of what he was doing. Think of the great evil that has been done through his fanaticism! Think of the millions massacred through his teachings, mothers bereft of their children, children made orphans whole countries destroyed, millions upon millions of people killed". (I. 184)

There is idol worship in Islam

Swamiji further said: "The Mohammedan who thinks that every ritual, every form, image or ceremony used by a non-Mohammedan is sinful does not think so when he comes to his own shrine, the Kaaba. Every religious Mohammedan whereever he prays, must imagine that he is standing before the Kaaba. When he makes a pilgrimage there, he must kiss the black stone in the wall of the shrine. All the kisses that have been imprinted on that stone, by millions and millions of pilgrims will stand up as witnesses for the benefit of the faithful on the last day of judgement. Then there is the well of Zam Zam. Mohammedans believe that whoever draws a little water out of that well will have sins pardoned, and he will, after the day of resurrection, have a fresh body, and live for ever (II:39). The Mohammedans use the graves of their sainst and martyres almost in the place of images (III:61).

Spread of Islam by Sword…

“The Mohammedan religion allows Mohammedans to kill all who are not of their religion. It is clearly stated in Koran, “Kill the infidels if they do not become Mohammedans”. They must be put to fire and sword. (II.335). Think of the little sects, born within a few hundred years out of fallible human brains, making this arrogant claim of knowledge of the whole of God’s infinite truth! Think of the arrogance of it! If it shows any- thing, it is this how vain human beings are. And it is no wonder that such claims have always failed, and , by the mercy of the Lord, are always destined to fail. In this line the Mohammedans were the best off; every step forward was made with the sword–the Koran in the one hand and the sward in the other: “Take the Koran, or you must die; there is no alternative!”. You know from history how phenomenal was their success; for six hundred years nothing could resist them, and then there came a time when they had to cry halt. So will it be with other religions if they follow the same methods.” (II:369-70)

Allah, the God of Islam

Swamiji said ‘universal brotherhood’ in Islam by saying: Mohammedans talk of universal brotherhood, but what comes out of that in reality? Why anybody who is not a Mohammedan will not be admitted into the brotherhood; he will more likely have his throat cut. (II:380)

More from Swamiji on this aspect: "Now, some Mohammedans are the crudest in this respect, and the most sectarian. Their watchword is “There is one God, and Mohammed is His Prophet”. Everything beyond that not only is bad, but must be destroyed forthwith; at a moment’s notice. every man or woman, who does not exactly believe in that, must be killed; everything that does not belong to this worship must be immediately broken; every book that teaches anything else must be burnt. From the Pacific to the Atlantic, for five hundred years, blood ran all over the world. That is Mohammedanism! Neverthe- less, among these Mohammedans, wherever there was a philosophic man, he was sure to protest against these cruelties. (IV:126)

Theocratic Islamic governments

Regarding the fact that in Muslim countries the non-Muslim religious communities had difficulty in performing their religious duties and the theocratic governments do not allow to build temples or churches, no wonder Swamiji said: "It is here that Indians build temples for Mohammedans and Christians. Nowhere else. If you go to other countries and ask Mohammedans or people of other religions to build a temple for you, see how they will help. They will instead try to break your temple and you too if they can (III:114).

Interesting the man you regard as an idealogue is saying more or less what I am saying.

Denying the evil that the Abrahamic religions have done on this planet and are still doing is like denying the holocausts. The truth be told it is not me who is the problem here, because I am actually calling for Muslims and Christians to take responsibility and affect reform in these religions. Unlike people on this forum who want to pretend there is no problem. Yeah sure, and 9/11 7/7 and 7/11 did not happen :roll:

#90

I commend you all on your patience thus far with Surya. Amazing. I have also tried in vain to communicate with him, but he’s in a bubble, kind of a fragile state.

Do you think you are in a bubble, a kind of fragile state? You might be projecting sir.

Surya doens’t DO yoga. He only thinks it, and he’s frightened that it won’t be enough to bring him to yoga realization and he’s acting out. Very smart but also kinda of lazy. In a way he’s crying he’s been let down, yet he doesn’t have the courage to put his brain aside for an hour and find yoga through experience. He’s waiting for someone with siddhis to show him how, so he has proof before he begins. He doesn’t yet know he’ll have to begin without it. It’s like Arjun who is paralyzed and unable to act.

You seem to know a lot about what I do personally without knowing me. You are either psychic or presumptious :wink:

You only address the questions you have an answer to and seem to avoid the rest. You have avoided mine and i know why. I thought my analogy to your steam engine comment would really help you. Did you get it?

The point was hardly developed enough to respond to it. Perhaps you should illustrate your point next time if you want me to respond to it.

I only hope you won’t amass another lifetime of karma before then. You have enough to burn already and don’t need any more.

So do you sir :wink:

#91

Suhas, how can you claim to be Hindu and not practice Viveka. All Hindu masters from Sankarcharya to Vivekananda have practiced Viveka. Sankarcharya had no problem challenging other religions, philosophical systems to debate. I am afraid if a Hindu does not use their intellect they are a bad Hindu. Nowhere, in the entire corpus of Vedic literature has a Hindu ever been told to be politically correct or not say what they think. On the contrary, from the very beginning, a strong spirit of skepticism, questioning, critical thinking has always been maintained. Even the Vedas were not exempt from being questioned.

What form of Hinduism are you practicing?

#92

New age thinking is not Hinduism. The New age gets costantly mocked in the academic world because of its lack of critical thinking. If you are not thinking critically in an age of science and reason you are not moving with the times. Trust me, in the academic world you cannot state something and not give valid justification and evidence for it. If you write, “I believe it because I believe it” you will instantly be failed.

#93

Surya,

It is YOUR opinion that proof was not given. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS THAT.

As far as new age thinking, critical thinking,etc., if I’m a happy new age thinker and happiness in my goal, why should I change? I like to think new age means progressive thinking. Blending spirituality with science. Looking at the whole world and not just where you’re standing. Believing in a holistic approach. That’s how it is looked at in my circles.

As far as Siva’s steam engine analogy: Steam is evaporated water. It’s available. It’s everywhere. No one owns steam. But steam can be harnessed to run a steam engine. But does the steam engine own the steam? No. It is available for everyone, not just the steam engine. That is my take. Will be interested to hear Siva’s meaning.

Anyway, I really see no further point in this discussion. It’s going nowhere. I hear what you are thinking Surya, but don’t go there. Let’s let it rest.

#94

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36515][B]Suhas, how can you claim to be Hindu and not practice Viveka.[/B] All Hindu masters from Sankarcharya to Vivekananda have practiced Viveka. Sankarcharya had no problem challenging other religions, philosophical systems to debate. I am afraid if a Hindu does not use their intellect they are a bad Hindu. Nowhere, in the entire corpus of Vedic literature has a Hindu ever been told to be politically correct or not say what they think. On the contrary, from the very beginning, a strong spirit of skepticism, questioning, critical thinking has always been maintained. Even the Vedas were not exempt from being questioned.

[B]What form of Hinduism are you practicing?[/B][/QUOTE]

It is the message of many vedic streams to realize that you are not the role you play in prakrti, but instead something which transcends it. Is it not fair to say that there are hindus who do not misidentify the true self with the role of ‘hindu’ in prakriti as much as you may, and therefore see that there is nothing to challenge or debate about religion or philosophy? Is this not the ultimate form of viveka - discriminating which is the self and which is the identity we attach to and struggle to uphold the standards of?

[I]

[B]All who have actually attained any real religious experience never wrangle over the form in which the different religions are expressed. They know that the soul of all religions is the same and so they have no quarrel with anybody just because he or she does not speak in the same tongue. -Vivekananda[/B]
[/I]

#95

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36515]Suhas, how can you claim to be Hindu and not practice Viveka. All Hindu masters from Sankarcharya to Vivekananda have practiced Viveka. I am afraid if a Hindu does not use their intellect they are a [B]bad[/B] Hindu. What kind of Hinduism are you practicing?[/QUOTE]

Also… You will correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that there are quite a few texts which state that one can be a [B]“good”[/B] Hindu and achieve all of the benefits of many lifetimes of practice simply by practicing unfaltering devotion to God, (we’ll use Krishna for the example, because it’s Krishna Jayanti today).

So for example: thinking of nothing but Krishna, contemplating only his name, seeing Krishna in everything, krishnaji pranidhana / complete surrender, or all of the above and then some.

One who puts all of his faith in God cannot fail, so there is no need for questioning anything. So why question what religion is right, or waste time on forums debating when you can spend that valuable time in reverence to God? Those who practice bhakti are the most rewarded and/or successful indu-s. Every action they do is in devotion to God and therefore in line with dharma and free from negative karma.

So in that respect - no more chatting online for me tonight!
It’s Krishnaji’s birthday in the morning!

#96

[quote=lotusgirl;36517]As far as Siva’s steam engine analogy: Steam is evaporated water. It’s available. It’s everywhere. No one owns steam. But steam can be harnessed to run a steam engine. But does the steam engine own the steam? No. It is available for everyone, not just the steam engine. That is my take. Will be interested to hear Siva’s meaning.
[/quote]

Chalk one up for the lotusgirl. Exactomundo!

Surya,

She’s got you here buddy. The point seems to be developed plenty well enough for her. Why not for you? Maybe it’s too clear, huh?

What do you say? This is a good question for you? I would also add, not only, “does your steam engine own steam,” but does it create water too? If it were true, we’d probably still be using it. Come on! Humor us for a change.

I’m neither psychic or presumptuous, it’s just you and your dilemma are quite transparent. And you’re so lucky people are trying to help you. You should thank them.

siva

#97

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;36517]Surya,

It is YOUR opinion that proof was not given. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS THAT.[/quote]

Namaste, you have not given any proof for your assertion that the Abrahamic religions are religions of peace. I think we can leave this point now, as you have failed to capitulate, and I don’t see the situation changing.

As far as new age thinking, critical thinking,etc., if I’m a happy new age thinker and happiness in my goal, why should I change? I like to think new age means progressive thinking. Blending spirituality with science. Looking at the whole world and not just where you’re standing. Believing in a holistic approach. That’s how it is looked at in my circles.

The new-age is currently a disorganized religion where everybody and anybody can say anything, and if it catches, its becomes a part of it. For example a book written by you supposedly channeled by aliens from Andromeda can become a bestsellar and be absorbed into the new-age culture. In this culture healing your cold by giving you leyline therapy is as valid as healing it by taking medicine. This is not progression, but regression.

I will tell you how far the new-age movement has regressed. In ancient Greece there were several schools of philosophy known as pre-socratic schools and the scholastic schools. At that time anybody could say anything and it was just as valid as one another. The scholaistic schools would say, “Man is the measure of truth” In other words whatever he said was true.
Later Plato introduced the socratic method of reasoning, showing that not all statements are equally valid and there was a method to arrive at more certain truths. So succesful was this method that all Greek philosophy became to be marked historically as presocratic and postsocratic. After this the science of reasoning developed and from this came about the scientific method in the age of reason. Since, we have made huge strides in all sciences and given humanity reliable, testable and valid knowledge.

The scientific method is the only way of obtaining reliable knowledge. Some nutjob talking about magical fairies or aliens from andromeda is not the equivalent of a professional scientist. If it were not for scientists you would not have any of the technology you take for granted today. We have made massive progress and new-age people are stalling that progress. Hence why they mockled constantly by serious critical thinkers.

As far as Siva’s steam engine analogy: Steam is evaporated water. It’s available. It’s everywhere. No one owns steam. But steam can be harnessed to run a steam engine. But does the steam engine own the steam? No. It is available for everyone, not just the steam engine. That is my take. Will be interested to hear Siva’s meaning.

The anaology is flawed because Yoga is not some physical substance like steam. It is a technique which harnesses the body-mind system. The steam engine harnesses steam. A technique is the intellectual property of somebody who discovered it. Yes, theoretically anybody can discover those techniques, but nonetheless we still give credit to those who discovered it.

If I went about claiming the steam engine is not a Western invention I will rightfully be villified for the claim. Similarly, if you go about claiming Yoga is not a Hindu invention, you will rightfully be villified for the claim. As Hinduism is the religion of Yoga, meditation and Vedanta, you are very much so engaging in a formal Hindu practice. No other religion has this other than Hinduism. If they did, you would be looking towards other religions, and not Hinduism.

Where is the Yoga in your Abrahamic philosophy? I read page and page of the bible yesterday and found nothing more than crass mythology.

#98

Namaste,

Bhakti Yoga is actually considered within Hinduism to be an inferior vehicle and it was created in the Kaliyuga as a method for common people. Prior to that there was no pantheon of Hindu gods and goddesses that were worshipped and no temples.
Even in the majority sects of Hinduism it is acknowledged that Sadguna Brahman is nothing more than a human invention and ultimately we need to let go. The great bhakti Yogi Ramakrishna played about with his Sadguna Brahman a lot, first using Kali, then Allah, then Jesus. Had he lived today he may have used the flying Sphattegi monster. Ultimately even Ramakrishna had to give up Sadguna Brahman. Secondly, it is a misconception that Bhakti Yoga and Jnana Yoga are mutually exclusive. In fact they are not because bhakti is naturally developed as part of Yoga. The greatest Jnana Yogi AdiSankarcharya was also a great Shiva bhakta. Yet he knew the “Shiva” concept was nothing more than a manmade invention.

The goal is the same of all Yogas and it produces the same clarity of perception. So all Yogis naturally develop viveka. He who does not have viveka is not a realised Yogi. This is why Krishna says Jnana Yoga is the highest Yoga in the Gita. All humans being develop in a natural linear way. They are first creatures driven by instincts, then sentiments and beliefs, then intellect and finally by superconsciousness. One does not negate the other but sublimates it.

I am afraid many here lack a comprehensive knowledge of Hinduism and Yoga so they cannot understood that there is a precise logic behind it which binds it into a cohesive unity and spiritual science. Much like a theory of everything. They have jumped the intellectual stage and are pretending they are at the superconscious stage. However, I can clearly see many are stuck at the sentiments and beliefs stage. So far all the masters I have seen have never been antithetical to science and have always used reason of the sharpest quality. Those who have not sufficiently developed their intellectual faculty are going to fall again and again on the spiritual path. Viveka is absolutely required at the higher stages because at those stages the mind is the biggest tricksters. The level of maya is so powerful that all non Jnana-yogis are going to fall very badly.

I serve a very useful and necessary function on this forum in that I hold peole to rigorous standards of critical thinking. I do not let anyone get away with a point that is not supported by evidence. For this reason I am darling to the academic world and one of the very few spiritual people who also is equally at home with science. If you want to help abridge the gap between spirituality and science you must learn to think critically. Nobody takes the new-age seriously in the academic world.

And those who claim all religions are equal. Just enrol onto your local Comparative religion course and you will soon realise how absurd that statement is.

#99

Siva,

I just refuted the steam analogy.

You claim that my problem is transparent. However, only a crystal clear mind, unconditioned itself, can see things clearly. Do you have a pure mind? No? In that case your judgement is coloured by your own problems, assumptions, beliefs, values etc.

The convinction of your statement about the state of my mind is therefore nothing but presumption. Here is a nugget of Yoga wisdom for you :wink:
However, will it penetrate your own fragile bubble?

#100

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36050]
So, where does that leave the so-called “yoga” of today? In a word, the “yoga” of today is phony. Just imagine “Certified Baptism Teachers” (and non-Christian, at that) opening “Baptism Studios.” “Underwater Therapy: $20 a class.” a[/QUOTE]

This mad me LOL first:)
But to become a “certified baptism teacher” one have along path to go… to get his “certification” http://www.ehow.com/how_2095236_become-priest.html