Well, as it clear that you are not going to desist from insulting me, I see no reason to continue any correspondence with you. You clearly are very jealous of me, otherwise you would not feel the need to constantly insult me. Your last few posts have not made any points, they have just been insults. I am not going to stoop to your level and insult you back, even though that is an option 
Yoga is a philosophy and practice of the religion called Hinduism that comes from the India and has a 10,000 year history.
NO - Yoga is a philosophy and religion called YOGA that comes from the India and has a history that goes back to pre-history. (Even Hindus agree that the true dharma is timeless remember?)
In the 20th century Hindu gurus have bought Yoga to the West
YES - but you IGNORE the Facts that so did Buddhists, Sikhs and Western scholars and europeans who visited India
The issue comes when you do not acknowledge the fact that it is from Hinduism.
I have REPEATEDLY SAID that I AGREE that yoga is Hindu - but I also acknowledge other traditions - wheras you do not - which is IRONIC for a Hindu !
ME ? False claims?
I think you are arguing with yourself again here SD !!
you are going to alienate us and make us protest.
Listen if you make the claim that one cannot do yoga without also being Hindu then this says more about Hinduism than you probably need to be saying.
I know a lot of people that practice yoga that are also dishonest and greedy, so suddenly you want to say that this is not yoga?
So - we are back to my point of BEFORE making such a BOLD claim as X=Y and Y=X we need to evaluate both X and Y beforehand - otherwise WE LOOK FOOLISH.
It is not necessary to refer to oneself as a Hindu to also be a Yogi, and it is also not necessary to call oneslef a Yogi if one is Hindu - but amny will want to do that - which is fine by me - so WHY DO YOU PERSIST IN OFFERING SUCH A FALSE DILEMMA to peace loving people ? - is it because you do not understand the words you are using yourself?
[B]You are alienating YOURSELF at your own free will[/B]
@Dwai - people self-appointing titles such as Yogi and Guru is as prevalent in India as it is in “The West” - if you has actually have an authentic Indian Guru like I have you would know this. Wow - so you have read a book from Amazon - you have gone up one notch in my estimation - YOU ARE NOW AT NOTCH ONE.
the word “Hinduism” refers to the Vedic tradition of India which begins in 7000BCE. The word gravity to refer to the natural attractive force that all heavy bodies have did did not exist before Newton - does that mean that gravity did not exist before Newton?
- OK - so if it is not vedic it is not Hindu - lets be clear - this is what you are saying?
- Please see my previous response on praj?apti, (Sanskrit: “designation by provisional naming”) - I know such intellectual depth is tricky for you but please do try to keep up with the argument SD
So - as I have said before - you can say “yoga is Hinduism” - and I agree - but see my previous response as you are oversimplifying the issue in order to promote the interests of Indian Nationalism - you are appealing to Indians to rise up against Europeans on the basis that they diid not do a good enough job at translating a text that even Sanskrit scholars still argue about !
Yogimat, have you realised you have not made any friends in this thread ever since you decided to come along - i wonder why
First thing, you need to actually come out of the closet and make your case. As you are not doing that, allow me to help you. Is your case either of the following:
- You do not believe in the account we are giving of the origins of Yoga and Hinduism: It begins in 7000BCE with the Vedic people in the Mehgarh phase of Indian history. They practice Vedic Yoga.
- You believe in the Western account of the origins of Yoga and Hinduism. It begins in 1500BCE with the Vedic people invading/migration into India. The polytheistic natural religion of the Vedic people mixes with the sharmana tradition from the native Indian people who practices Yoga
Which of these accounts do you believe in or are inclined towards. This will give us a good idea of where you are coming from?
Statement 1
NO - Yoga is a philosophy and religion called YOGA that comes from the India and has a history that goes back to pre-history.
Statement 2
I have REPEATEDLY SAID that I AGREE that yoga is Hindu
These statements appear to contradict one another. Please explain what you are trying to say without contradictions
Also, can you provide evidence that Yoga goes to prehistory. Is this a fact, or just your speculation?
LISTEN SD - you started this thread by asking the question “IS Yoga Hinduism?” and then asserting “YES IT IS” by way of some unconvincing chronological seriation.
I have drawn your attention to the contradictions in your argument in that you want to rely on facts but you cherry pick which facts you are going to use to suit your premeditated belief framework - just like the people you criticise.
Again, I am used to this - I am just bringing your attention to this - and you (predictably) have chosen to ignore my complaints - and I can understand why.
I have been very careful not to contradict myself - you fail to understand how yoga can be Hindu and a lot more besides - and ther reverse is also true.
You are peddling the NIRVANA FALLACY - offering a FALSE DILEMMA and throwing in lots of RED HERRINGS.
This is why your bold claim fails.
Teaching uncertainty is not a popular choice for most aspiring teachers - you will learn this as you get older.
I REPEAT - the burden of proof lies with you - it is not up to me to assert my position, you are the one making the claim and you have to prove that the claim is valid.
Now, you have convinced yourself that your claim is valid - fine - BUT YOU DON’T STOP THERE.
You OVERSTEP THE MARK and imply that either people are not doing yoga (because they refuse to admit that they are practicing Hinduism) OR they are - in which case they are your buddies.
Now, do you think I say what I say here to make friends ?
Your preference for mob rule has been duly noted - this is a cowardly response from people that are both fearful and vain - they are COWARDLY BULLIES that just change their tune to suit the situation.
SD:
Rather hang thyself than belong to the horde of successful imitators. – Sri Aurobindo
You are following the common Hindu line and it is something I have heard time and time again - AND I AM FINE WITH IT - the only time you can expect a rebuttle is when you OVERSTEP the mark and start making critical judgements about other peoples lives based on the value judgements you have set for yourself.
In my experience I have found that the people most eager to tell everyone about their belief system are the ones most unsure as to how they got to that position.
The consciously think they are right - and ALL can “prove it” - Christians - Muslims - Hindus - Buddhist - atheists - agnostics - scientists - THEY ALL CAN PROVE THEY ARE RIGHT!
SO what does this tell you about my attitude to people that can prove that what they believe is right and yet believe something that contardicts what another person believes?
Wake up SD - your life on this planet is short - there is a truth - YOU are that truth - no belief system or knowledge will help you pass through The mouth of the lord of death.
Wake up now before he looks you straight in the eyes and turns your soul to ashes.
[QUOTE=Yogi Mat;56617]Scales: yes indeed - including your choice of language in this forum it seems - and maybe the clothes you are wearing and the books you read? Even, “The True History and the Religion of India” by H.D. Swami Prakashanand Saraswati (one of SD’s favourite bedtime books) is written in English! So - maybe you should really go for it and try your lame mocking of your opponents in ancient Sanskrit? That might be fun - I would pay good money to watch you try!
Here is some more evil, facist propaganda for you to decry:-
http://yogawiki.co/AYogaBook/BrahmanismBuddhismAndHinduism
It has been very good doing business with you both.
Thanks very much for your participation.[/QUOTE]
Fail. Scales was being sarcastic.
Yeah, the only reason is so prevalent is because of British war-mongering and conquest.
Please, do not campaign for a better representation of Hinduism. It is clear you are just another racist European. Please stop practicing Yoga if you believe our religion is inferior.
The link you also provided was a big fail. I wouldn’t be surprised if the author was an anti-Hindu ex-Dalit.
Buddha was indeed born a “Hindu”/Dharmi/etc.
There is a distinction between the way racist Europeans define the origins of our religion and the way we Indians define it. What we Indians say goes. “Hinduism” is not only Vedic Brahmanism but also the sect that arose after Buddhism. It is all Sanatana Dharma.
Once again, an ahistoric person like you can never succeed in bringing about a better representation of “Hinduism”/Sanatana Dharma/etc. Go back to campaigning for the colonization of nations with uncivilized peoples.
[QUOTE=Yogi Mat;56624]SD: Last time I looked, this thread was entitled: Is Yoga Hinduism? NOT “IS the Aryan Invasion Theory real?” or “How the Indo-European world-view is wrong”.
I accept that the translation of the Vedas was motivated by British / european imperialism and bias but I am saying that this is NOT RELEVANT to the thread topic.
It could be that you are in multiples threads and yu are getting confused - perhaps yoga is not your field of expertise?
I am also agreeing with you that Indians should not whole-heartedly base their entire world-view upon something that was undertaken by Westerners many years ago.
BUT you have HIJACKED this thread to promote Indian Nationalism - I do not want to discuss INDIAN NATIONALISM - I am here to discuss the thread topic: “Is Yoga Hinduism?”.
I have all the information I need about Indian Nationalism from one of my heroes, Sri Aurobindo - not you.
Please keep up.[/QUOTE]
I love Westerners like this person. He/She calls the campaigning for a better historical representation “nationalism” (as if thats a bad thing lol) while his/her subscription to racist Indologist theories is not.
the word “Hinduism” refers to the Vedic tradition of India which begins in 7000BCE.
OK - I will take from this that if a concept or method is not in the Vedas then it is not Hindu - and the corollary is that IT IS NOT YOGA
Well, that sort of straightjacket is usually reserved for mental patients that find it hard to deal with more than one option.
Also @Nietzsche
Men with your intelligence and with a firm Hindu belief and philosophy should be able to cope with multiple answers - and yet - it appears neither of you can.
So, what is this Hinduism you are practicing in that it cannot manage multiple perspectives?
It is unlike any Hinduism I have ever come across - even hardcore Hindu fundamentalists and Indian Nationalists will admit that Hinduism has many facets.
Hinduism is not a monolithic tradition.
There isn’t a one Hindu opinion on things.
There is no single spiritual authority to define matters for the faith.
There are several different denominations, eg. Vaishnavism, Saivism, Shaktism and Smartism.
Further, there are numerous schools of thought, or sampradayas, expressed in tens of thousands of guru lineages, or paramparas.
@Nietzsche REST ASSURED: As soon as I think your religion is inferior to mine I will certainly stop doing yoga.
Would you like me to contact you when this is the case?
By the way - what do you know of my religion? - your buddy SD would warn you against speculation.
[QUOTE=Yogi Mat;56628]Your communications are disproportionate to the problem we are discussing.
Your boots are too big for such a subtle discussion about yoga.
If I wanted to translate Shakespeare into Sanskrit I would ask someone with knowledge of Sanskrit! - not Japanese ! and obviously they will have their own agenda - to make Shakespeare intelligible to their audience.
I would not expect a Sanskrit version of Shakespeare to be able to communicate the subtle nuances of irony and mockery and all the literary devices he uses - and similar when I am reading the english version of the vedas I TAKE IT WITH A PINCKH OF SALT - and I am suggesting that everone else also takes a similaraly skeptical position - even with the original versions - knowing literature for what it is - its shortcomings in conveying subtle cognitive function for example.
Eg. Have you ever tried to describe what a persons face looks like ?
It just can’t be done reliably enough to create a water-tight identification BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE BRAIN WORKS.
If you did yoga and spent less time reading about it you might not dismiss my complaints as to your claim so quickly.
To dismiss the linguistic and cognitive problems with yoga is to dismiss yoga.
Similarly, if I want to read the vedas in English I would have to get someone with knowledge of the English language to do that - and people like Muller gladly stepped up to the plate and were paid for their efforts.
Muller et al were not doing this for Brahmins - they were doing it for the British secret service etc. - and you are cherry picking the errors and saying that the entire translations are worthless.
THROWING THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER
OK - they are not perfect - but to suggest some conspiracy when you are also relying on the publication of personal correspondence to criticise contradicts your theory that this is a massive western conspiracy against India.
If there really was one - this information would have been covered up!
And Hinduism is doing pretty well isn’t it ?
It is a bit like TESCO complaining that they only have 2,500 stores when they could have had 3,000 if it wasn’t for the evil British government!!
They are still the third-largest retailer in the world - and last time I looked - Hinduism Hinduism is the world’s third largest religion.
So - to quote one of your buddies here: Dude - what’s your problem?[/QUOTE]
What is your problem? How do you not know about this fabrication of our history when you claim you want to campaign for a better representation of Hinduism? The Aryan Invasion theory has been falsified time and time again, and everyone from historians to genetics experts have expressed grave doubts about it.
It wasn’t covered up because of the backlash Muller received from not only the Indians but from the British. Besides, it didn’t need to be covered up. By that time, his theories were already appearing in Indian textbooks.
Muller’s translations of the Vedas were not motivated by a desire to translate the Vedas into English. They were motivated by a desire to undermine the religion of the Indians through textual fabrication and historical misrepresentation. The Indologists translations of the Vedas are some of the most HORRENDOUS ever. They failed to account the multiplicity of connotations behind Sanskrit words.
Are you serious? So are you basically saying that if you want to read a translation of the Analects, you will send in a Chinese speaking Christian missionary to translate it? Quit practicing Yoga. You are an abomination who clearly doesn’t know what he/she is talking about.
You make me laugh. You insist on playing the semantics game with the word “Yoga” and yet you ignore the obvious semantics behind the word “Hinduism.”
Quit your campaigning for a better representation of Hinduism. We Indians are doing a fine job of it ourselves. We don’t need your help.
@Nietzsche - YOU seem to think that I think nationalism is bad - I did not say that - you did that all by yourself without any handholding by SD. (well done for thinking for yourself).
I said nationalism has nothing to do with this thread - which is about yoga and hinduism - please try to keep up
@Nietzsche Please at least TRY to keep on topic - if you weant to start another thread on AIT please do so - this thread is NOT about AIT or IE interventionist theory.
So are you basically saying that if you want to read a translation of the Analects, you will send in a Chinese speaking Christian missionary to translate it?
er - no - please read my posts and TRY to understand the logic - if you can’t please feel free to move on - my compalint is with SD who is making the claim not you - you are just making things more difficult for SD- he doesn’t need enemies with friends like you.
[QUOTE=Yogi Mat;56640]@Dwai - people self-appointing titles such as Yogi and Guru is as prevalent in India as it is in “The West” - if you has actually have an authentic Indian Guru like I have you would know this. Wow - so you have read a book from Amazon - you have gone up one notch in my estimation - YOU ARE NOW AT NOTCH ONE.[/QUOTE]
Your comment made me smile.
I don’t want to sound patronizing, and I sincerely recommended the book for you (and in fact suggest it to many of my western yoga friends) because it dispels misconceptions about the various darshanas. I do have two authentic Indian Gurus and I could go on about that. However, since your point wasn’t really to question my background but to show yours instead, I would like to politely inquire what your source of knowledge about Yoga, it’s history, lineage etc are?
Is it mere hearsay or have you actually done some studies in this field?
I am a native of India (though I live in the US these days) and I can appreciate the efforts needed and cultural baggage that a western yoga student would have to discard to really immerse him/herself into the sadhana.
In this internet-connected world that we live in today, many individuals make claims to knowledge which crumbles with a few pointed questions (when made by a discerning mind). That’s why, while I find the enthusiasm very high, I find the quality of knowledge among Western “Yogis” very lacking.
Yoga, the discipline is generic enough that many spiritual traditions use it to lead the practitioner to the highest level of realization. That doesn’t however mean that Yoga’s roots aren’t in what we call Hinduism today. It is one of the 6 primary systems of Darshana and is very much part of the tapestry of Sanatana Dharma (Eternal Way), the original name used for Hinduism.
“Hinduism” is not only Vedic Brahmanism but also the sect that arose after Buddhism. It is all Sanatana Dharma.
Well, great this proves my point that no one can actually agree on what Hinduism actually is - your buddy said that Hinduism is a Vedic tradition - see my response (above).
Once you have both agreed on what you want HInduism to be then you can start claiming whether or not it is or isn’t yoga - until then - I will leave you to argue amongst yourselves.
Bye
[QUOTE=Yogi Mat;56699]Well, great this proves my point that no one can actually agree on what Hinduism actually is - your buddy said that Hinduism is a Vedic tradition - see my response (above).
Once you have both agreed on what you want HInduism to be then you can start claiming whether or not it is or isn’t yoga - until then - I will leave you to argue amongst yourselves.
Bye[/QUOTE]
In fact any tradition that upholds the Prasthana Tryayi is considered a branch of Hinduism.
[QUOTE=Yogi Mat;56693]OK - I will take from this that if a concept or method is not in the Vedas then it is not Hindu - and the corollary is that IT IS NOT YOGA
Well, that sort of straightjacket is usually reserved for mental patients that find it hard to deal with more than one option.
Also @Nietzsche
Men with your intelligence and with a firm Hindu belief and philosophy should be able to cope with multiple answers - and yet - it appears neither of you can.
So, what is this Hinduism you are practicing in that it cannot manage multiple perspectives?
It is unlike any Hinduism I have ever come across - even hardcore Hindu fundamentalists and Indian Nationalists will admit that Hinduism has many facets.
Hinduism is not a monolithic tradition.
There isn?t a one Hindu opinion on things.
There is no single spiritual authority to define matters for the faith.
There are several different denominations, eg. Vaishnavism, Saivism, Shaktism and Smartism.
Further, there are numerous schools of thought, or sampradayas, expressed in tens of thousands of guru lineages, or paramparas.
@Nietzsche REST ASSURED: As soon as I think your religion is inferior to mine I will certainly stop doing yoga.
Would you like me to contact you when this is the case?
By the way - what do you know of my religion? - your buddy SD would warn you against speculation.[/QUOTE]
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I love how you choose to argue with someone who has far more knowledge of Indian history you do. What do you know of Indian history? Surya Deva would be just as likely to condemn you of speculation as me.
I also love how you deliberately misunderstood the context of my post.
I know that “Hinduism”/Sanatana Dharma has many sects.
My point was that all these philosophical, religious, and theological sects all fall under one banner: the religion, culture, and tradition of the Indians that was collectively called either “Sanatana Dharma” or “Dharma” in general.
“Hinduism” was not “created” after Buddha’s time. That particular form of Hinduism is called “Bhakti Hinduism.” Bhakti, once again, is just another form of Hinduism.
Lets recap: “Hinduism” was not created after the era of Buddhism. “Hinduism”/Sanatana Dharma is a very broad and collective term for the general practices of Indians. Those practices varied from kingdom to kingdom, village to village, town to town, and so forth. However, the general beliefs in reincarnation, karma, dharma, etc were the same.
Moving on.
There is indeed no one Hindu opinion in matters of religion and philosophy. No one debated that. Quit creating strawmans.
However, this discussion was about history. There is a thing called “reality” in history, you see. The reality of Indian history is this:
- Indologists were racists who desperately sought to undermine “Hinduism”/Sanatana Dharma in any way possible.
- The Aryan Invasion Theory has no basis in history.
- The Indologists’ translations of the Vedas were horrible.
- Indian history is largely based on speculation and the 1500 B.C.E starting point. It has little to no concrete archeological evidence. In fact, since writing did not pop up in India until later, the only reliable sources for ancient Indian history are Greek and Chinese ones. Even then, such sources are a rarity.
If you are not a Hindu, then why are you wasting time arguing with Hindus about Hinduism and our history?
Pseudo pro-Hinduism people like you who know not even a dime’s worth about our oppression, the falsification of our history, and etc sicken me.
@Dwai - you are now at notch 2 - keep going like this and you could be my Guru sooner than you would like ;-)) - or maybe I will be yours ? In any case We appear to be shooting from the same place sir.
My yoga is authentic - and it appears from your initial responses that yours might be too.
I am wary of making any statments as to my exact attainments as this is counter productive in public forum.
My sources are authentic and there is as much baggage for Hindus as there are Christians, Americans, Rapists, Theives and Tibetans.
Please do not make the mistake of assuming I am like your western students.
In return I will not make the mistake of thinking that you are of the same simple mindset as SD and his cronies.
@Nietzsche Unfortunately you have not realised you are not in the game. In fact you have not even shown up. It is always a good idea to read what someone is saying before stabbing away at your keyboard. PLease note that both SD and I have agreed that Hinduism is a eurocentric concept so you are using a eurocentric notion yourself and then complaining that eurocentrics have spoiled your own eurocentrism - CAN YOU NOT SEE THE ABSURDITY OF YOUR POSITION?