No concentration.
No meditation.
You were just my general contextual example.
“For the sake of argument, let’s say it’s true, that the ultimate goal is just to remain in silence, or nirvichara samadhi. Though it may be true, that is the ultimate goal, the highest state. You don’t want to make the mistake of trying to get to the highest state right away”
The work of the expansion of consciousness towards one’s liberation has very little to do with attaining to certain altered states of consciousness. Because you can live in a state of samadhi and yet remain in a deep sleep, no insight has arisen which has warped your understanding of existence, or which has managed to cut away in a single moment all of the psychological hindrances which are preventing oneself from coming to one’s freedom. There is a certain transformation that happens spontaneously, but it should not be misunderstood for mere fleeting states of samadhi, or coming to a vegetable-like state of thoughtlessness. All of the work of meditation, and all of the various different forms of samadhi that arise in meditation, are just to create an inner atmosphere of preparedness for the moment of enlightenment. And although the different states of samadhi may arouse great bliss and ecstasy, this should not be misinterpreted as having arrived to the ultimate experience, this is nothing more than a prelude to the breakthrough which settles the matter, through and through. There must be a direct seeing into the very nature of the mind which is such, that it severs the past completely - and an insight is awakened which is of such an intensity, that it is impossible for every particle of one’s being not to be impacted by it. This is something far more essential than realizing a mere thoughtless state of samadhi, all samadhi is just to create a receptivity which is so delicate - that now all that is needed is just an excuse for the breakthrough to happen. It may happen deep in meditation, or just doing ordinary things - chopping vegetables, sweeping the floor, or hearing the sound of the whispering wind, but once you have awakened a certain intensity of energy at the level of one’s consciousness, now all that is needed is just a small trigger for the explosion to happen. If one does not understand the inner space which is functioning at the moment, it will be almost impossible to understand how such small and ordinary things are capable of triggering an awakening. One Zen master, Hakuin, became awakened just hearing the sound of a bell in the distance. Rinzai became awakened when being struck by his master Obaku. Bankei realized his true nature when vomitting and staring into the mess. Ramakrishna had a glimpse into his original face when he was taking a walk in the field, when spontaneously a group of white cranes flashed by his vision. A deep silence and receptivity is needed to come to the breakthrough, but if you misunderstand this as having arrived, you immediately fall into delusion. Any enlightenment which is not involved, intensely involved in the world, is not enlightenment, nor does is it something which is separate from the ordinary activity of the mind. But that is the common misunderstanding, to believe that silence lies in destroying the activity of the mind. That may awaken a certain kind of silence, but it is not the silence of enlightenment. Because the silence of enlightenment is such, that even if there are a million and one thoughts arising and subsiding, you can still remain absolutely balanced and centered in your true nature. If your communion with your true nature is disturbed by the arising and subsiding of thoughts and impressions, then your peace is something very delicate - it is hanging by a thread. At any moment, it can come crashing down, all that is needed is just a ripple to arise on the surface of the lake, and your silence is disturbed. This is not the authentic silence.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;55509]“For the sake of argument, let’s say it’s true, that the ultimate goal is just to remain in silence, or nirvichara samadhi. Though it may be true, that is the ultimate goal, the highest state. You don’t want to make the mistake of trying to get to the highest state right away”
The work of the expansion of consciousness towards one’s liberation has very little to do with attaining to certain altered states of consciousness. Because you can live in a state of samadhi and yet remain in a deep sleep, no insight has arisen which has warped your understanding of existence, or which has managed to cut away in a single moment all of the psychological hindrances which are preventing oneself from coming to one’s freedom. There is a certain transformation that happens spontaneously, but it should not be misunderstood for mere fleeting states of samadhi, or coming to a vegetable-like state of thoughtlessness. All of the work of meditation, and all of the various different forms of samadhi that arise in meditation, are just to create an inner atmosphere of preparedness for the moment of enlightenment. And although the different states of samadhi may arouse great bliss and ecstasy, this should not be misinterpreted as having arrived to the ultimate experience, this is nothing more than a prelude to the breakthrough which settles the matter, through and through. There must be a direct seeing into the very nature of the mind which is such, that it severs the past completely - and an insight is awakened which is of such an intensity, that it is impossible for every particle of one’s being not to be impacted by it. This is something far more essential than realizing a mere thoughtless state of samadhi, all samadhi is just to create a receptivity which is so delicate - that now all that is needed is just an excuse for the breakthrough to happen. It may happen deep in meditation, or just doing ordinary things - chopping vegetables, sweeping the floor, or hearing the sound of the whispering wind, but once you have awakened a certain intensity of energy at the level of one’s consciousness, now all that is needed is just a small trigger for the explosion to happen. If one does not understand the inner space which is functioning at the moment, it will be almost impossible to understand how such small and ordinary things are capable of triggering an awakening. One Zen master, Hakuin, became awakened just hearing the sound of a bell in the distance. Rinzai became awakened when being struck by his master Obaku. Bankei realized his true nature when vomitting and staring into the mess. Ramakrishna had a glimpse into his original face when he was taking a walk in the field, when spontaneously a group of white cranes flashed by his vision. A deep silence and receptivity is needed to come to the breakthrough, but if you misunderstand this as having arrived, you immediately fall into delusion. Any enlightenment which is not involved, intensely involved in the world, is not enlightenment, nor does is it something which is separate from the ordinary activity of the mind. But that is the common misunderstanding, to believe that silence lies in destroying the activity of the mind. That may awaken a certain kind of silence, but it is not the silence of enlightenment. Because the silence of enlightenment is such, that even if there are a million and one thoughts arising and subsiding, you can still remain absolutely balanced and centered in your true nature. If your communion with your true nature is disturbed by the arising and subsiding of thoughts and impressions, then your peace is something very delicate - it is hanging by a thread. At any moment, it can come crashing down, all that is needed is just a ripple to arise on the surface of the lake, and your silence is disturbed. This is not the authentic silence.[/QUOTE]
Couple things.
How do we - the poor sleepers in darkness come to our awakening? Could you describe the operation of the exact psycho spiritual mechanisms that govern this?
What does awakening mean?
What is the precise method that you yourself have trodden?
This explosion of awakening. What does it feel like?
Is there a difference between ‘awakening’ and 'enlightenment?" If so. What are the differences. Please describe the methods and mechanics of enlightenment - if there is a difference between ‘awakening’ and ‘enlightenment.’
What are the visual and audio cues along the way that mark our progress so we - the idiots - know where we are?
How does one achieve liberation?
Is liberation nirvana?
What does ‘ones’ original face look like - so I know it when I see it?
“How do we - the poor sleepers in darkness come to our awakening?”
There is nothing “poor” about it. It is only because of sleep that there is a possibility of awakening. While the methods are many, it is fundamentally one and the same - to come to know oneself - not intellectually, or through analysis, but through direct observation.
“Could you describe the operation of the exact psycho spiritual mechanisms that govern this?”
What do you mean by “psycho-spiritual” mechanisms ?
“What does awakening mean?”
It is not a word that is to be taken too seriously, it is more of a term of convenience. In itself, it is more or less meaningless. It can be used as a skillful means to refer to seeing directly into the essential nature of mind, and the transformation of the personality that arises out of such an experience.
“What is the precise method that you yourself have trodden?”
Meditation.
“This explosion of awakening. What does it feel like?”
It does not matter what it feels like. What matters is whether it is capable of dispelling the delusions of the mind.
“Is there a difference between ‘awakening’ and 'enlightenment?”
These are just words, and like all words they will mean whatever you want them to mean. As far as I am concerned, I use them both without much difference.
“Please describe the methods and mechanics of enlightenment - if there is a difference between ‘awakening’ and 'enlightenment.”
There are no “mechanics”, being in tune with your own nature is not a technique or a method, it is a certain way of being. But if one has been living out of unawareness, if you have forgotten your true self -then a method is needed for rememberance.
To have a glimpse into it, is one thing. But to live in communion with it from moment to moment is something else entirely. That is why just as there are different depths of meditation, there are also different depths of so called “enlightenment”. Because as far as integration is concerned, there are many possibilities as to the different kinds of integration that are possible for a human being.
“What are the visual and audio cues along the way that mark our progress”
I don’t know what you mean by this. If you mean various different impressions that start arising from the deep levels of the unconscious, I would not be too concerned with such things at the present time.
“the idiots - know where we are?”
You are not an idiot, but one certainly may enjoy pretending to be one.
“Is liberation nirvana?”
You will have to elaborate on what you mean by nirvana.
“What does ‘ones’ original face look like - so I know it when I see it?”
When you see it, you will know.
@ Amir & Scales
Please do not continue this discussion in this thread. This thread is intended to focus on topics that are appropriate for beginners. That does not include of ultimate enlightenment, various states of samadhi, or the related self-promotion. You need not reply to this post, just move the discussion to a different thread.
[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;55453]
What about the methods you have linked: Did you try them with positive results? Progress on the way of that system?[/QUOTE]
Yes of course I have, did you? I’ve been doing this kind of thing for quite a few years. It never hurts to brush up on the basics. Swami Rama’s approach is highly effective. If you read his article, you will notice that he says to spend an entire month just practicing relaxation of the body, then another couple of months just focusing on breath awareness. Beginners should avoid the tendency to try too much too soon. By practicing the basic techniques, you will acquire the ability to quickly achieve a relaxed and focused state.
I’ve been studying meditation for quite a long time. I’m 19 but my mother explained in basic, meditation when I was very little. Since I was around 4-5 I’ve been obsessed with training and taming my mind. Even so! I could always read more about it! There’s always a chance that I’ve missed something so, when the chance presents itself, I’m very grateful.
Thank you friends for the info and advice 
Meditation is doing nothing rather than silencing thoughts and for most people usually also involves a bit of doing something which can be a technique or method.The doing nothing part typically involves surrender. This might feel a bit strange and challenging as most people’s body/minds are absorbed in doing something or acting out as a result of prior conditioning and programming. So when one sits to do nothing there may be all kinds of challenges.We can’t find a steady seat, the mind wants chatter, or perhaps if we’ve gone deep unconscious thoughts are popping up now and agan out of apparently nowhere.
I won’t go too deep into it or write vast tracts about it it but for alot of people including myself it is usually a curious mixture of doing nothing and usually a little something also…
That is a nice simplification of what meditation typicaly involves.So any struggling as in these thoughts must go etc, does’nt strike me as meditation.
Sounds simple in theory but can be challenging in practice.
Find a steaady seat,consciously relax,let-go inhibitions, perhaps introduce your technique or procodure or whatever etc. For many this is concentration on an object or simply observing. The mind and the senses are divested of their usual attentions.We go inwards all the while also observing our field of consciousnes. Physiologoical and neurobiological changes will occur.The body/mind disenages from it’s usual obsessions,neuroticisms even hopefully and pre-occupations and deeep transformation is allowed to occur with steady practice.
You can focus on the breath… the flow or bridge at the nostrils( i believe Swami Rama’s Himalayan Masters school employs this one i think), certain breathing patterns or pranayamas, a collection of sounds intoned mentally, the ebb & flow of thoughts, the physicality of the body, energetic nodes in the body or chakras, your energetic qualities or states found in certain asanas, or innner visualisations marrying breath and attention or internal sound,i.e deep mantra etc.The list goes on.Stillling the mind via creating some distance between you and your thoughts is good one creating inner silence so you can become the “silent witness” to it all and identify much less.
Breath based meditations usually stike me as kind of like a half-way house approach between dealing with the mind and the body, both affected … the breath is sometimes thought of as the bridge betwweeen the two.I would actually suggest nadi shodhan, a deep silent mantra or just watching all of the breath and the respective movements of the diaphragm ,abdomen and chest etc(i started off with this myself).
Hi Asuri,
The advice is’nt necessarily conflicting,it’s just that there are different and numerous approaches.None are more right than the other but they will employ differrent methodologies and have different rationales within their respective approaches or work better with certain cross-sections of people…Someone with experience is in a better position and confident to experiment.The beginner is blind and lacks the experience and will always entertain doubt probably because he is usually alittle in the dark on how much energy and discipliine is sometimes really involved, the dedication needed… The main thing is to make it as simple and easy as possible.And you don’t want to give him/her a tool that’s too weak either but that he can make informed decisions that balance safety with predictable effects both short & long-term…You give him or her the tools to navigate their own path,show them how they work at first. They come back,they say this & that, express some doubt about their practice naturally.It gets reviewed. The practice maybe modified, changed something added or subtracted.But there hopefully comes the point where the practitioner has enough tools inthe cupboard to navigate safely above all and confidently.Identifying where the blocks are on all levels is quite good idea.
Hi Asuri,
[quote]Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl
What about the methods you have linked: Did you try them with positive results? Progress on the way of that system?
Yes of course I have, did you?[/quote]not at all, I use no system. I wouldn’t even say I use any method, I mostly remain unattached to thougts and movements that arise. I have tried some specific methods, for example to visualize a spinning disc. It had been explained that this image is good because it’s neither static (good for the mind that likes to move), nor actually eventful. I found it to be an obstacle, though.
So my beginner’s question actually is still the one you’re kinda have banned from this thread, wether these large-scale-programs make any much sense if one does not have problems to calm the mind. Which I don’t, at least I think so. Maybe I misjudge that too, I can’t look into other people’s heads to see how their meditation is, but what’s described as the results, I do feel. Only relatiting to all this energy-mixture-stuff I can’t. I feel that there are points and even channels of “energy” in the body, but to the whole “alchemy” I cannot relate at all. I had tried that energy cycle from Qi Gong for quite a while, but it never flew freely. I came to believe that it might be some sort auf autosuggestion or self-hypnosis, you know, that one has to believe in this thing and visualize the flow. But I’m not sure. Also - man, I talk about this banned stuff all over again, forgive me plz!! - I find it quite remarkable how different system differ. In Yoga you’re - as far as I know - supposed to raise energy from that lowest Mula-something-chakra to the one on top of the head. It’s a big goal or something. But in Qi Gong you’re supposed to circle energy, so having risen energy equally/similarly/??? is considered as pretty much the lamest mini-achievement there is.
However. 
May I get back to my question on Pratyahara…? You say you meditate for years now, what if you are in deep meditation and there is a loud noise, does it disturb you? Or not? Me it does. And I get quite a weird effect too, hard to explain, but to call it an “earthquake” comes close. It sorta kinda like… shatters me on a mental plane. It’s really quite weird, it feels like my mental system would be frozen or so, while my perception of my mental-“area” is anything else but frozen. There is movement going on, or some sort of that mysterious “infinity”. Yet if I hear a sound I feel this… vibration or percussion. It actually feels quite interesting and not unpleasant or so, but still it is a disturbance.
Know what I’m talking about? And I should say that I have maybe around 50 hours of meditation-time. I, though, never had a problem to concentrate, I am mentally quite gifted, high IQ, very quick study, very good memory, etc. I once read that helps.
I’ve been doing this kind of thing for quite a few years. It never hurts to brush up on the basics. Swami Rama’s approach is highly effective. If you read his article, you will notice that he says to spend an entire month just practicing relaxation of the body, then another couple of months just focusing on breath awareness. Beginners should avoid the tendency to try too much too soon. By practicing the basic techniques, you will acquire the ability to quickly achieve a relaxed and focused state.
Could you or anybody who feels that they have made progress describe how that is? For example you say that you can achieve a relaxed and focused state quickly. Could you (anyone) describe the differences between your current abilities and how they were when you started?
Learn Sahaja Meditation Online
Sahaja Meditation online course will take you on a journey in which you will learn the first steps towards the purest form of meditation, Sahaja Meditation. All knowledge and experience are introduced through videos and audio guided meditations. All the images, music and sounds of nature are so chosen to help guide you and to give you a feeling of peace.
Make some time if you want to experiment at home. Because what you could find is something which can give your life a new dimension, a new meaning.
[QUOTE=Seeker33;55634]Learn Sahaja Meditation Online
Sahaja Meditation online course will take you on a journey in which you will learn the first steps towards the purest form of meditation.
Can you explain what the purest form of meditation is .
By the way that young lady would be well advised to sit on those pretty cushions , she is going to have terrible problems with her lower back if she continues in that manner.
Are you on commission seeker 
True, your advice is not conflicting, but probably a little too much info for a beginner. In the beginning, you don’t need lists of things you can do, you need to throw away the list and concentrate on one thing. The first object of concentration is relaxing the body. Practice relaxing the body until you can do this easily and quickly. You will know that you have reached your goal when you notice that you start to breath deeply. Practicing asanas is a great help for this phase. By the time you sit down to meditate, you will already be quite relaxed, and then you can move on to the next phase.
The second phase is breath awareness. In this phase, your object of concentration becomes the breath. Swami Rama says that pranayama can be done as a preparatory practice. The techniques of basic pranayama are outside the scope of this discussion. For meditation, simple breath awareness is all that is recommended.
Breath awareness is crucial to the practice. There is a good reason for this. The ancients believed that there is a close connection between prana (breath) and the movements of the mind. They believed that by controlling prana, you also control the mind. That is the theoretical basis of the practice. Through millenia, people have confirmed from their own experience that the practice works.
You can go into a lot of detail about how to practice breath awareness. Some say focus on the tip of the nose, or in the nostrils or the back of the throat. You can focus on the movement of the stomach or the action of the various muscles as you inhale and exhale. It doesn’t matter. What matters is that as you breath deeply and focus awareness on the breath, you will notice a definite calming effect. You should practice this until you can achieve that effect reliably and relatively quickly.
One other thing I’d like to mention is the sitting posture. Swami Rama names a few postures that are appropriate for meditation. I personally do a lot of my practice sitting in a chair or lying down, which is OK but definitely not as good as using a proper posture. The advantage of these postures is that they help to keep the spine straight so that breathing is unrestricted and you can breathe deeply.
The practice described by Swami Rama has been used for thousands of years, and is common to practically all systems. It is based on Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras, and Patanjali was codifying practices that had been in use long before his own time. These are the people who defined what meditation is. They had words for concepts that we don’t even have in our language. So to try to practice meditation without reference to what they defined is like reinventing the wheel. If you don’t do the practice chances are you will never understand. It’s particularly important to practice breath awareness. If you don’t agree that deep breathing and practicing breath awareness produces a definite calming effect, then there’s not much point in continuing the discussion.
Hi Asuri,
The practice described by Swami Rama has been used for thousands of years, and is common to practically all systems. It is based on Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras, and Patanjali was codifying practices that had been in use long before his own time. These are the people who defined what meditation is. They had words for concepts that we don’t even have in our language. So to try to practice meditation without reference to what they defined is like reinventing the wheel. If you don’t do the practice chances are you will never understand.
oh.
It’s particularly important to practice breath awareness.
Ah!
If you don’t agree that deep breathing and practicing breath awareness produces a definite calming effect, then there’s not much point in continuing the discussion.
Awwww…
What discussion. I can read that website myself.
If you’re already at the stage where you can easily relax and calm the mind, then you’re not a beginner. It makes a great deal of sense to follow the system articulated by Patanjali. It is a comprehensive system that contains guidance from beginning practice through the most advanced.
One thing you will notice about Patanjali’s system is that it does not make any reference to raising energy or Kundalini, and references chakras only indirectly and in only one or two places. This is because it is based on Samkhya metaphysics. I much prefer this system because it is straightforward and unambiguous. Once you learn the terms, it is fairly obvious what they refer to and there is very little difference of opinion as to what they mean. Swami Rama’s article briefly explains the words manas, ahamkara, and buddhi. These are Samkhya terms.
A lot of confusion arises because we tend to think of the Vedic culture as monolithic when in fact there were different schools of thought. The concept of chakras and nadis is really a different metaphysical system, and in contrast, the meaning is ambiguous and there is a lot of disagreement on the details. The article posted in this thread does a good job of explaining some of the differences in philosophy.
First of all, let me say that I don’t formally practice pratyahara all that often. Most of my practice involves concentration on external objects, but I do occasionally get into deeper practices. Also, pratyahara is not well understood and probably needs a separate thread to deal with it in depth, but to answer your question, yes, an unexpected noise can disturb me. I happen to know a little something about the physics of sound and I have a lot of experience working with sound. Based on that I’d say that your description of feeling a vibration or percussion is accurate. Sound is, after all, waves or vibrations at different frequencies traveling through the air. The difference in the volume of sound is actually a difference in sound pressure level and pressure is - guess what? - something that you feel. Whether or not it is a disturbance I think depends on whether it is something that is normally present in your environment or something that is unusual.
Even if you are engrossed in pratyahara though, you’re still going to hear it. Pratyahara is usually described as sense-withdrawal, but you can’t stop your ears from hearing, or your skin from feeling or your tongue from tasting. Your tongue however may not be in contact with an object of flavor. It requires a little bit of introspection and learning to discover the true meaning of pratyahara. Guidance on this can be hard to find.
[QUOTE=Asuri;55651]
A lot of confusion arises because we tend to think of the Vedic culture as monolithic when in fact there were different schools of thought. [B]The concept of chakras and nadis is really a different metaphysical system,[/B] and in contrast, the meaning is ambiguous and there is a lot of disagreement on the details. The article posted in this thread does a good job of explaining some of the differences in philosophy.[/QUOTE]
Samkhya is inclusive of the chakra system. Patanjaili’s Yoga sutras only suggest them. It is up to the yogin to gain knowledge.
By using the sutras
[QUOTE=The Scales;55677]Samkhya is inclusive of the chakra system. Patanjaili’s Yoga sutras only suggest them. It is up to the yogin to gain knowledge.
By using the sutras[/QUOTE]
I beg your pardon. I’ve read the entire Samkhya Pravachana Sutram and Samkhya Karika and have not found a single reference to chakras. If you’re going to make a statement like that, you need to provide chapter and verse. You know you can’t do it so I would appreciate if you do not try to derail the thread with useless controversy. The topic is meditation for beginners.