Motionless Meditation

Mindfulness Meditation
#5

You make me insecure and not my beliefs. Those give a certain security, but you want to take that away in the name of the ultimate security, one what is unaccesible for me, at least yet. If it would be, I’d achieve it. But I can’t not because I believe I can’t and this stops me, but because I try and I fail.
Now, perhaps there are brave souls who keep hitting their heads against the brick wall until they break trough. But my head hurts so I rather slowly demolish the wall with one brick at the time.

You do the same but you play the master here with me, God only knows why ?

#6

I don’t do the same, I jump over the brick wall when I want to, yet it is not permanent at this time. Permanence of that state is a choice coming from deep within, but just the ability to see beyond the wall gives so much peace and security unlike any other false security. And looking past the wall is not that difficult, that’s what I am trying to say.

If I sounded like tutoring you, then I am sorry. I was sharing my experience not in general, but more specifically aimed at you.

You said:

But I can’t not because I believe I can’t and this stops me, but because I try and I fail.

My whole point is: stop trying. The false security I am trying to break down, is the very source for your trying. Have you ever tried to grab a pen when its down? Try it. If you grab it, you did it. If you try it, you cannot grab it, cause as soon as you grab it, you are not trying it anymore. Yoga is a wonderful system of trying. It slowly brings us to the point of doing.

In my belief, if we stop trying, if all securities are down, if we are completely alone, without any securities to hang on to, what remains is truth. Becoming conscious of that truth that arises in between one false security and the next, is what I am talking about.

Lets not be afraid and be blinded by these false securities, let’s not stick to them because we are afraid of hurting our heads, instead; let’s be courageous and explore the gaps in between these securities, in between the thoughts. That’s all we need.

#7

Have you ever tried to grab a pen when its down? Try it. If you grab it, you did it. If you try it, you cannot grab it, cause as soon as you grab it, you are not trying it anymore.

This is just a play with the words, and perhaps not a good example.

  1. When the pen is within reach, the action of trying and grabbing the pen are not two, but one. In this case it is called grabbing. (There’s no trying in this. You assume that until we did not reach it, we are trying to reach it, what is just a perception. I just as well can say that we do not try, we are in the middle of process of grabbing, which is just another name and another perception)
  2. When the pen is in a position where it is not easily reachable, even though it seems possible with a little effort, than we try, and based on our skill and the distance, we succed or fail.
  3. When the pen is completely out of reach, we do not even try, we just realize it is not reachable by hand, and we find other means to help ourselves like getting closer to it, using a prop or smthg else.

Applying this example, what you say: don’t try, grab it - means: it is not out of your reach, it is already there. In this, you are like one, who says, hey, don’t you see , it’s there ! And I, while I hear you, I don’t see it reachable. Of course this makes me frustrated, because I feel I am doing my best.

Now, here I have two choices: I believe you or I don’t. If I beleive you, while I do not see how it is true, I still have to find a way to grab it. If I do not believe you I have to do just the same, if I want to grab the pencil.

In my belief, if we stop trying, if all securities are down, if we are completely alone, without any securities to hang on to, what remains is truth. Becoming conscious of that truth that arises in between one false security and the next, is what I am talking about.

So this is just a belief. A belief I share by the way. I am simply not in position to apply it yet. Perhaps later I will realize this was the obstacle, but right now, even if I agree it might be true, I can’t change it. (attachments, to lots of thoughts)

#8

Okay, I see.

I respect your path and understand your situation. Though that very situation is merely a thought, it is not truly your situation as I see it.

The very thing I am trying to oppose is this, you say:

So this is just a belief. A belief I share by the way. I am simply not in position to apply it yet.

Think about what your mind is saying here… it somewhere beliefs it to be true, beliefs it to be relatively simple like I said, but it immediately backs off saying: you are not yet in a position to do this.

Who the hell does this guy, this mind, thinks he is to decide such a thing for us?

Wel… He thinks he is you. That’s the tricky part.

Lucky us, we can decide that we stop believing ourselves to be him. If we do that, the mind can keep on believing he is you however much he likes, but you won’t fall for its jokes and eventually its attempts will fail. Ultimately, you are in control, all we need to to, is [I]make the decision.[/I] Why won’t you see the difference between what your mind is opposing about my ideas on one hand, and yourself on the other? All you need to do is watch the mind as it says these horrible things that make you insecure and you will see the distinction between yourself and him. I bet you know all this. Then why don’t you? Can you do that? Dare you do that?

All we need: understanding and courage. You got the understanding I am 100% sure, all you need now is courage.

The mind will oppose this possibility, and again, we have to be courageous and watch these thoughts without believing what they say. Positive of negative thoughts don’t make any difference, as long as we witness and stop believing in them, it’s all good.

You also said:

Perhaps later I will realize this was the obstacle, but right now, even if I agree it might be true, I can’t change it. (attachments, to lots of thoughts)

IMO opinion this very sentence indicates the very source of all your suffering and insecurities in regard to the spiritual path. Because, if you realize this is your obstacle… (the attachments to thoughts) then why continue doing it?

I think that YOU realize that YOU are attached to the MIND, and then instead of taking control over the process, your mind drives you with those exact same thoughts to continue the way you do.

So the Irony here is that YOU realize your bondage to the mind, yet the mind overrules this realization with thoughts like you are attached to. Why do you listen to it? Why do you believe it? I wonder.

B.

#9

Because I like it. :slight_smile:

#10

Ok, I find that hard to believe.

Even if you do like it, somewhere inside you must value happiness over superficial liking.

But if you can accept things the way they are and truly like it, then there is happiness in that acceptance as well.

Any way, I wish you all the best. May your path be graceful.

Bentinho Massaro

#11

I did not say this as an argument, but as fact.
It is easy to do what we like. The problem is that this usually leads us to things we do not like.
I must say I enjoyed this conversation. What you talk about has the simplicity and radical approach of advaita schools.
My recent knowledge of the lives of avatars and gurus like Nityananda, Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, Shirdi Sai Baba is perfectly in accordance with what you say.
You know what ? I am applying what you say. It requieres keen awarness.
You are right. I was satisfied with my practice, and I did settle for less, postponing this important aspect.

#12

Great to hear.

Now that’s courage :slight_smile:

My experience is that once we start taking action and being courageous, the universe starts working for us at a much faster pace, much more powerful also. May you be blessed.

Goodluck!

#13

i completely agree with what what you say/ is it a truth that once you do this kind of meditation you lose all your senses and you do not get an arousal at all ,i.e. you become impotent ? is that true.

let me tell you my story.

about a year back. i had practiced the same path that you have described for 2 months and had achived at it , but unfortunately i did not have the grace of a guru to guide me i was left alone like an orphan. i came to the conclusion that i will become impotent if i continue my practice, hence i stopped my practice and right now im feeling sorry for that .
please guide me on what i can do about this now. i dont think that i can reach the same level as im working and i do not get time to do meditation as i work in shifts.

#14

Note: With Impotent, do you mean unable to get an erection, or do you mean being powerless; unable to control?

i completely agree with what what you say/ is it a truth that once you do this kind of meditation you lose all your senses and you do not get an arousal at all ,i.e. you become impotent ? is that true?

I have not heard any stories of people becoming impotent of meditation or from this kind of meditation in specific. For the moment, yes, your body can cease all activity. When you reach deep enough in Samadhi, your breath will stop and in some cases even your heart may stop. So you will not get an erection in this state no ;). Also, you will always be the one to decide how much to control and how much to let go. But in order to achieve a higher balance, we need part Willpower (control) and part letting go. In Yogic terms: Part Shakti energy and part Shiva energy. in the end we are always in control.

But when you decide to get out of meditation/samadhi, your body works properly again and is under your full control. The body might feel a bit dead as if it is a block of wood, but after some minutes everything is running again. the time of regeneration depend sof the time spent motionless in meditation.

about a year back. i had practiced the same path that you have described for 2 months and had achived at it , but unfortunately i did not have the grace of a guru to guide me i was left alone like an orphan.

You don’t need a guru. Explore on your own. I never had a guru. I know a few teachers and I have had initiation from a Swami, but before that time I was doing just as good. It’s a traditional believe that we need guru’s. Its not a necessity. Be courageous, explore on your own and ask for guidance where necessary.

I came to the conclusion that i will become impotent if i continue my practice, hence i stopped my practice and right now im feeling sorry for that .
please guide me on what i can do about this now. i dont think that i can reach the same level as im working and i do not get time to do meditation as i work in shifts.

Again: What do you mean by impotent?

Tip: try meditatin in between work, or while doing teh things you do at work. You can move your hand or write a piece for work automatically, or you can put all your awareness into every movement. As is done in Mindfulness Meditation (Mindfulness Meditation).

#15

Yes this is what i mean . when i practised yoga , i felt that my body is a peice of wood, food was no longer tasty to me, and when i was masturbating i no longer could enjoy it , but my semens did come out ,so i felt that i will never enjoy the pleasure of the senses . so even if i have sex i will not enjoy it .that is where my fear lies.

so my question is ,if i get asana siddhi ,will i enjoy sex or will i not.:eek: ?

#16

The mind is sometimes our enemy. I suffered from it, in fact i do right now.
Feelings area creations of our mind. What if you believe that you can control the way you feel? Does it work?
And Bentinho, i sent you a private message beacause i really need your guidance.
Keep going, you are in the right way and you are inspiring me.

#17

You know what. I did it.
When things get really bad i start to see my life from the outside as a witness, from the air. Life as an illusion, we dont even know how all started, who rules if anyone rules, we dont understand why we live, we dont crontrol any factor that makes us who we are, and who we are is what matters when decisions are made in the everyday life.
So why should we bother?
Imagine a computer game. You create a person, and you decide how he is. Then because he is as you decided he makes decisions according do that. In adition, you put some bad luck in is way and he starts suffering very hard.
This person can be you.
Does this make any sense? Should you bother. Should you care?
Well, life is all we have. Sometimes we care (when we are happy) but when it gets bad, we shouldnt care. Became a spectator in a movie.

Do you relate to any of this?
Does this have to do with mind control?

What do you think?

#18

I am indeed greatful for the insight that you have provided me , but if i think of life as a movie i am just a speactator ,then i do not have any ambitions left for me , because a specatator does not have any ambitions, if the story is a sad one you will not watch the movie, so its better that i die than life a normal life, but i am bond by the comitments that i have towards my family.

my question still lies : will asana siddhi make me impotent , will i enjoy sex or will i not ?

#19

Yes this is what i mean . when i practised yoga , i felt that my body is a peice of wood, food was no longer tasty to me, and when i was masturbating i no longer could enjoy it , but my semens did come out ,so i felt that i will never enjoy the pleasure of the senses . so even if i have sex i will not enjoy it .that is where my fear lies.

so my question is ,if i get asana siddhi ,will i enjoy sex or will i not.:eek: ?

There are two options here:

1: The ceasing of your enjoyment in sex is a mind-game
2: The ceasing of your enjoyment in sex is because you transcended sex in total

Option 2 is not likely to be the case, because if that would be so, you would not regret it nor suffer form it. Being free form sex will establish a most satisfying contentment within yourself and since you are not content with your situation, I must conclude your mind is playing tricks on you.

Whatever you want to believe about your sex-life, is what you will think, believe and experience when having sex.

[B]If you think you do no longer enjoy it because of meditation, you will think, believe and experience that.[/B] If you think that meditation provides you with even more self-control and hence your sex-life will only improve, than that is what you wil think, belief and experience.

Don’t doubt.

Let it go.

Enjoy the moment of having sex and try to ad no mental concepts, no doubts, no beliefs, just be in the moment.

And most importantly: When you think you can no longer enjoy sex, [B]Do not believe yourself![/B]

[U]JoseJose:[/U]

Does this make any sense? Should you bother. Should you care?
Well, life is all we have. Sometimes we care (when we are happy) but when it gets bad, we shouldnt care. Became a spectator in a movie.

Do you relate to any of this?
Does this have to do with mind control?

[U][B]While I understand your thoughts on this Jose, I must say:[/B][/U] If your purpose is to get close to inner freedom and truth, caring for the happy moments and rejecting the bad moments/situations, or not caring for the bad, but caring only for the happy, will not get you anywhere but deeper into illusion.

[B][U]If you care for the happy moments, you automatically care for the bad ones;[/U][/B] because what is a happy situation? What is a happy moment? It is a [I]non-bad[/I] moment. You are happy in such a situation, because [I]no bad[/I] things are happening. Do you see the intrinsic connection between good and bad? The kind of happiness you are referring to, is completely dependent on the absence of bad moments. It is depending on the illusion of duality.

[I]If your purpose is to gain more inner freedom and truth, you should not care for the good nor for the bad.[/I] If you stop caring about whether or not good things or bad things happen to you, you gain freedom, because [I]you[/I], your state of being, is no longer depending on anything but yourself.

If I would only care for my happy situations while trying hard not to care about sadness, I would be wasting time because it is not possible. Both good and bad are one and the same. If this would be my spiritual occupation, my state of being would still depend on what’s going on [I]out there[/I], instead of what I choose to experience [I]in here.[/I]

[U][B]I think that it is good what you are doing with putting yourself outside the situation as an observer.[/B][/U] Keep doing this more and more, also when your mind is happy because somethign good happened. You should practice non-attachment to the happy as well as to the sadness.

[B][U]My suggestion:[/U][/B] Let go of this caring for good and not-caring for bad concept, because good thought and situations are just as much, if not more, of a bondage and illusion than the bad ones. Exchanging the bad thoughts for good thoughts, is like changing the rusty, iron chains around your neck for golden, shiny, yet more powerful chains around your neck; they are harder to break open. You may like these chains more because they look good, but you are still just as much of a prisoner. No inner freedom, no truth is gained by doing so. You merely changed one illusion for another. ’

Don’t let Maya fool you.

Bentinho Massaro

Ps. I am not from Portugal JoseJose, so I can not read your private message. Please re-write in English or Dutch if you want ;).

#20

You Bentinho are a true master mind, and this is not a cheap compliment.

Good and bad? Happiness? Sadness? The thing is, you feel bad and then you are able to know what it is to feel good. One without the other cant live. So kill both, dont live better or worst, just live, life is an experience, just do it, dont feel it.
Is this what you mean?

#21

You used the word freedom and true.

So there can be a state of mind, independent from the outside events, where you just feel stable freedom and truth, not good or bad, you just see the world, your world, you see it with a neutral mind, you see yourself as a part of everything, but you see yourself from a higher place, you command yourself, but you are not yourself, you are a consciousness of the world as it is around you because you understand you are not in control of the events, so dont feel it, live it and watch.

Why feel something you cant really control. If someone asked you: do you want to join a game where you are not in true control, and you will feel bad and good but i cant garantee nothing, if your lucky you will feel most of the times good but if you are unlucky you will, most of the times, be miserable.

Would you want to play it? Then he says to you, allright, play the game, but you wont feel anything, good or bad. Wouyld you play it?

Id rather play the last game

Is this the way?

#22

Yes this the way, explained in basic words, Jose.

I only have one thing to ad that I felt missing in your words, which is that once you stop messing around in the world of endless emotion, you will still feel something, but something higher will shine through.

So it is not like you go completely numb and don’t feel anything, like a rock does. Experience is a feeling as well, kinda, its just not an emotion and it is not depending on anything but you. It is a state of being, a blisfull peace and experience that transcends emotion.

So in this state of purity, no matter what game I would participate in, I would always be different from the game, I would always know and recognize the difference between myself and the game I am playing and I would always be in bliss and peace, regardless of the game people want me to play. That way I am free to participate in anything, for I am immortal and untouchable. Nothing can harm me or influence me, I am in full control over my being, my soul, my experience.

Love & Light,

Bentinho Massaro

#23

Hi Jose, you might want to practice Mindful meditation. It has really helped me.

#24

Most people, when they meditate, do so while sitting.

Or kneeling. Or lying down.

Whatever else it is, meditation is still a form of work. You need a body to work with and you need to be in some kind of position to get things done. There’s no getting away from that.

But there’s a place beyond the body where your sense of self can be suspended, and you can try to access that place by letting your mind move freely into and out of the space between thoughts.

That’s what I was doing at the time my friend saw me motionless on the floor.

https://www.arhantayoga.org/meditation-teacher-training-online/