Patanjali the scientist, and his teachers?

What a travesty that Asuri was banned from this forum. Having been constantly subjected to this kind of viscious, nasty, ugly, and false personal attack, the administrator finally bowed to his top poster in order to try to get some peace. I hope that other readers are more discerning.

I don’t think anybody really takes Surya Deva seriously anymore, so I think I will spare myself the aggravation of responding to this.

[QUOTE=ino;81147]What a travesty that Asuri was banned from this forum. Having been constantly subjected to this kind of viscious, nasty, ugly, and false personal attack, the administrator finally bowed to his top poster in order to try to get some peace. I hope that other readers are more discerning.

I don’t think anybody really takes Surya Deva seriously anymore, so I think I will spare myself the aggravation of responding to this.[/QUOTE]
Considering you and Asuri are one and the same I don’t find it surprising that you think your banning is a travesty.

Banned.

Yaram,
I am not comfortable writing this mail since the contents need to be conveyed only to one who has doubted them. But, I think ?double standards?, ?pseudo-intellectuals? and ?hiding? are words that need answer in a post rather than a private message or simple silence; though many readers may not (rightfully) care!

After a long career in Finance and IT, I am still new to yoga. My introduction to Yoga occurred thanks to my guru and yoga sutra merely 15 years back and I am practicing it ever since. I do not know anything beyond yoga-sutra and have never claimed otherwise. (For example, I have written nothing about asana and intently follow what other posters like InnerAthlete or Lotusgirl write about them.) This forum has given me immense information and knowledge, and ability to discern between the two. My posts are reviewed at least twice before sending in, as only that needs to be written which will be of value to someone.

Lack of historical, philosophical or epistemological knowledge makes me write only from experience and call speculation a speculation with a prefix ?I think ? ? So much of life?s experience has taught me to spot ?clever? writing. My post contained specific arguments: the reply has this -

PERSONALIZATION

  1. ?Hindu masters fight against anyone who challenges their positions?. (?HINDU MASTERS?)
  2. ?If I had stated emphatically that the Yoga Sutras is a Samkhya document, I would have been attacked for that. As a matter of fact, I expected to be attacked for that. It surprises me that I am now being attacked for softening the statement. It’s clear that the intent is to damage my credibility, but the effect is to reinforce the substance of what I said. I’d like to claim reverse psychology but I’m not that good.? (?ATTACK INTENDED TO DAMAGE CREDIBILITY?)
  3. ?What do you mean by introducing confusion? That I have departed from the accepted party line? That I have dared to challenge the masters? I have not introduced confusion, I have introduced the truth. ? (?PARTY LINE?)
  4. ?However, since they are so thoroughly indoctrinated in Vedanta and the belief that nothing can deviate from the Vedas, this is impossible for Hindus to accept. But it is not the product of some evil, racist, western conspiracy against them, it is just that we are not indoctrinated into Vedanta as they are, and it is not a crime if we see things a lirrle differently.? (?INDOCRINATED IN VEDANTA?)

STATEMENTS; NOT EXAMPLES

  1. ?to engage in personal attacks, so it looks like I have touched a nerve here.?
  2. ?If there is a scent of denigration, it is not toward the Yoga Sutras, which are indeed a master work, but towards simplistic and half-baked statements like ‘the yoga sutras are a codification of knowledge from the upanishads’?.
  3. ?My point is that this is his own terminology, or more precisely, the terminology of the yogins, and that this terminology is not found in the vedic literature.?
  4. ?As for the common knowledge that the Yoga Sutras deviate from Samkhya only with respect to Isvara and ultimate non-dualism, that is a simplistict idea suitable for those who have not investigated the depths and the subtleties of the two systems, and not necessarily true on either count. It would, however tend to support my view that Patanjali’s yoga is not a distillation of knowledge from the Upanishads, since it is more closely aligned with Samkhya than with the vedic religion.?
  5. ?Patanjali’s yoga philosophy differs in important ways from the religious beliefs and practices described in the Upanishads.?

SOME QUESTIONS

  1. ?the more obvious it seems that the asta anga portion is an insertion into the original text.? (VERBATIM?)
  2. ?In fact, that is my personal belief, but I can’t prove it, so I refrain from making that assertion?. (WHY NOT REFRAIN FROM ALL ASSERSIONS?)

I am amongst a very few who use real names on the forum and not pseudo. When I say not interested, it is because of lack of time and inclination to engage in wasteful exercise. It?s personal.

My loves why do we bicker about whos johnson is more bigger?

Mine is by far the largest and because I know the words of patanjali I can actually make it the Size I wish. Fat. To satisfy. Perhaps this won’t make it past the sensors but thats - OK.

An ounce of practice [and not mere words] - is worth - 4 - wide - inches in the bush.

LAWQL

We should praise the sage and STUDY his words, for like svatmarama, he wrote what he wrote for you, and me, and he, and she.

I bow my head to the blessed one. Indefatiabgale. Un comprehensible. and without a doubt - THE MAN.

hm what the flip :slight_smile:
Im surprised by this thread, but also understand why SD mentioned ‘regulating the spiritual field’ (this is a good example).
I asked just a simple question and suddenly all research needs to be posted in order to get the current facts on the table (probably not the first time).
Personally i just thought of it that Patanjali was the writer, since it was mentioned on wikipedia.
For the people who havent done their own research: it doesnt matter too much imho. Wikipedia (poor man’s reference heh) states its ‘debatable’, meaning that some folks said “hey everybody check this out, maybe patanjali is not one guy!”, an exciting, entertaining exotic view, nothing more.
I dont say wikipedia is always true, but sometimes a public opinion can be a sane startingpoint, instead of immediately focusing on exotic views/glitches.

btw. patanjali starts with “and now its time for” or something similar. Is there any chance that he wrote more episodes before the yoga sutras? Has patanjali ever been mentioned in other scriptures? I wish i could travel back in time and search thru all patanjali’s documentation :slight_smile:

Yes, there are many other writings attributed to Patanjali. This includes The Mahabhasya or the great commentary on Panini’s Asthadyayi, on the science of grammar of Sanskrit, a text on metallurgy and a text on Ayurveda(medicine)

The scholars bicker among themselves on which ones are by Patanjali and which ones are by some other Patanjali lol

Sqz,

(I was hesitating for a moment in view of some of the latter posts. As long as thoughts are shared decently and respectfully there is reason to post.)

If we set aside all that is being debated inconclusively for centuries, a general agreement seems to be that Patanjali took upon himself a huge task of common codification of the theory and practice of Raja Yoga, both of which pre-existed with unpteen variations.It is also evident that he used such highly optimized expression that each syllable exists in the sutras only with precision and justification.

That makes “now” far less casual and we need to speculate in favor of some significant meaning. “Now” of course means “after something”. Possible options are (1) after some basic preparatory training (since he uses but doesn’t explain terms like guna, purusha etc) or (2) after being eligible in the strict guru-shishya mode for the rigors of Raja Yoga.

My guru, who gave us a different sequence of sutras, that like a key opens up a grand new dimension of sutras (it is in my book) used to say that a guru used to pass on this sequence to the eligible disciple and would say, “now, here are the detailed instructions,”

But, yes many things about sutras are intriguing, yet fascinating and teaching.

“Now” is not really something to be read into that much. It is an introductory convention like a modern day abstract that some Sanskrit texts used. It is also used in Kanada’s Vaiseshika Sutras in the first sutra “Now, will be explained what dharma, the laws of nature is” then it goes onto define what dharma is and what are the the fundamentals categories of dharma. Similarly Yogasutras begins with the sutra “Now, we will begin the study of Yoga” then goes onto define what yoga is and what are the fundamentals categories of yoga.

However, I agree with Suhas, Yogasutras presupposes prerequisite knowledge of Samkhya, because Patanjali feels no need to explain Samkhya terms, assuming that the reader already knows about them. This is hardly surprising, because Samkhya philosophy is the oldest philosophy of India, with the oldest usage of the terms purusha and prakriti in the Rig Veda itself. Everybody back then would have been conversant in it. This is why I constantly stress to Yoga practitioners to study Samkhya philosophy - it is a necessary prerequisite. To not study Samkhya before Yoga practice is like now studying physics before starting engineering, or anatomy before starting surgery.

I can’t stand the Yoga snobs who think they are above Yoga philosophy lol