Questions re Kriya Yoga, Yogananda and Self-Realization Fellowship (SRF)

Spirituality
#11

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67350]Arial: Your claim that someone who is “earnest and sincere in his aim and efforts would very quickly” get the results of reaching “heaven or paradise” contradicts the Self-Realization Fellowship/ FAQ page, which says that spiritual development is a gradual process and "sometimes those who are making the greatest progress have few or no spiritual experiences as ?evidence.?

Source: SRF website / FAQs / “How do I know if I am making spiritual progress?”

From the above it is clear that Kriya Yoga does NOT offer anything more than the results coming from other faiths and spiritual paths. (Or inasmuch as yoga offers something else, it is the effects of certain brain cell-altering yoga techniques .)

Many millions from other religions who are steadfastly making spiritual effort and courageously facing life?s daily challenges are making the greatest progress ? even if they are not aware of a tangible response from God - and they testify to have positive changes that take place within them: an increasing sense of well-being and security, calmness, joy, deeper understanding, release from bad habits, and a growing love and desire for God. In order to achieve these results they however do NOT need either yoga techniques or other forms of physical/physiological manipulation of the body and mind.

Regarding your claim that one needs to be “earnest and sincere in his aim and efforts” to experience yoga:
First, one relevant aspect of science is that it only needs an unbiased and sceptical mind to produce scientifically verifiable results, and it does not take any efforts - either earnest or not - for any individual to practise and force his mind, body and perception into an unnatural and altered state.
Second, those individuals and organisations who offer yoga as a spiritual practice and as a “scientific” and the fastest one among any other spiritual paths should demonstrate their earnest and sincere efforts and aims to substantiate their claims on an objectively verifiable basis.[/QUOTE]

Yoga_questions - My statement was…

“If you are earnest and sincere in your aim and your efforts, you will surely get results very, very quickly.”

I did not say get “heaven” or “paradise” quickly. Here’s what I will say on this - even in the beginning stages of first kriya initiation, with regular and sincere practice, one should start getting more calmness at least. If not, there is something wrong with the practice (perhaps not practicing correctly). But here is the trick, Lahiri Baba warned us to practice without expectation for results. In fact this is the spirit of the Gita…that when we desire the fruit of our action, more karma is bred. This runs contrary to our aim (of dissolving the ego). So we must just practice and offer this action (our practice) to God…He will do the rest.

But practice we must.

#12

Hello Aerial and Yogam,

Thanks again for your replies.
Even if you mean well, which I don’t doubt, your answers only indicate dogmatism vs science.
“Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or by extension by some other group or organization. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioners or believers.” (Wikipedia)

As I asked before several times why should I assume that once I practise yoga, then it will be God and not someone or something else which will “do the rest”?
With a valid reasoning I can only assume that if I am in an altered physical and mental state, I would only experience something altered - however beautiful or peaceful it may appear first - rather than God.

[B]And why must I practise Yoga without getting an answer to the question why I must practise Yoga outside of your circular reasoning [/B]and without getting an answer how the benefits of yoga would exceed those of other spiritual paths, especially if they don’t actually?
Why must I practise Yoga if not for the promised then un-promised “unique” benefits of it?
It is a well-known fact that people from other religions also experience calmness, safety, joy, etc without altering their state of consciousness.
Just to get into a calm and peaceful state? I am calm and peaceful in my unaltered state as well, and those who aren’t calm, they can calm down without such drastic intervention as altering their state of consciousness.
Some can just exercise, take a walk in the neighbourhood, listen to music, or a humble and sober prayer may just do the trick as well.

And in general, why should I practise Yoga or anything that alters my consciousness?
The more I think about it, and the more I research this topic from other sources as well, the clearer it becomes that I have to stay away not only from Kriya Yoga, but from all kinds of it, even from the non-spiritual forms of yoga and meditation.

Since our brain has been devised - either by nature or God - for the very purpose to process reality and adapt to it, the brain’s withdrawal from such activity may cause the often serious symptoms some yoga-practitioners suffer from. (I have read some posts about such complaints on this forum and elsewhere)

From above it follows that the more someone practises a form of yoga or meditation - ie the longer time someone spends in this altered state of consciousness - the more difficult it may become for the brain to re-adapt to reality and to deal with the many-faceted stimuli of it. The body and mind under the control of such manipulated and altered brain thus stays in a highly vulnerable state and feels uncomfortable in this world. It feels all right only when it withdraws from reality and returns to the altered state of yoga/meditation.
For the mind and body to relax and get rid of these symptoms, more meditation/yoga will be needed, thus the vicious cycle is closed, which obviously means a serious kind of addiction.

To get back to reality may result in an overburdened nervous system that would give extreme responses - both mentally and physically - to the smallest stimuli of reality.

#13

Why do you have to practice yoga to get results?

That’s like someone asking a personal trainer how to get fit. The personal trainer tells the person the science of fitness, what to do to train the muscles to get strong and start to see results. The pupil says, well why do I have to actually practice? Why can’t you just tell me and that make me fit?

Nothing comes without effort. Train the mind with yoga practice and you will not have to ask… You will know!

#14

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67374]
The more I think about it, and the more I research this topic from other sources as well, the clearer it becomes that I have to stay away not only from Kriya Yoga, but from all kinds of it, even from the non-spiritual forms of yoga and meditation.

Since our brain has been devised - either by nature or God - for the very purpose to process reality and adapt to it, the brain’s withdrawal from such activity may cause the often serious symptoms some yoga-practitioners suffer from. (I have read some posts about such complaints on this forum and elsewhere)

From above it follows that the more someone practises a form of yoga or meditation - ie the longer time someone spends in this altered state of consciousness - the more difficult it may become for the brain to re-adapt to reality and to deal with the many-faceted stimuli of it. The body and mind under the control of such manipulated and altered brain thus stays in a highly vulnerable state and feels uncomfortable in this world. It feels all right only when it withdraws from reality and returns to the altered state of yoga/meditation.
For the mind and body to relax and get rid of these symptoms, more meditation/yoga will be needed, thus the vicious cycle is closed, which obviously means a serious kind of addiction.

To get back to reality may result in an overburdened nervous system that would give extreme responses - both mentally and physically - to the smallest stimuli of reality.[/QUOTE]
[B]
[B][/B][/B]Sorry but that’s false. Practice and you will experience the contrary. Yoga has changed the life of many people to the right side, to cope with the difficulties and complexities of life with ease and well being…

On the other hand, I agree that Yoga is not scientific, because it lacks objectiveness, the spiritual results obtained cannot be checked by others. Some masters are said to display magical powers before their disciples, but that cannot be considered a scientific proof unless one witnesses it.

So you have to demonstrate yourself the whole issue. You have to become a living laboratory. You have to sit down and peacefully observe the root itself of existence for hours. Then the subtle aspects of reality will unveil to you. Do not expects others to unveil them for you.

And how to know if it’s God or hallucinations? Well, universe itself is a collective hallucination. Indeed universe is not physical but logical.

Good luck!

#15

Science (from Latin: scientia meaning “knowledge”) is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.

To say that yoga is not scientific is a misnomer. It took investigation for yogis to determine what yoga is, how to practice yoga and what benefits they experienced through the practice of yoga. The fact that people can duplicate this experience through its practices means that it has validity.
The fact of the matter is that we take science on faith. Unless we ourselves are scientists conducting experiments in a laboratory we are completely taking on faith that what science tells us is real and valid. So again, I say it is a science, get busy proving or disproving it!

#16

[QUOTE=kriyayogini;67396]So again, I say it is a science, get busy proving or disproving it![/QUOTE]

Not in the strict/western sense. Others cannot check and validate the results one has achieved unless they undergo the same training and discipline. And even so the same results shouldn’t be expected as we all are at a different evolutionary stage.

Science studies the outer world. Yoga the inner world.

What KY do you practice? Do you belong to any lineage?

#17

[QUOTE=panoramix;67399]Not in the strict/western sense. Others cannot check and validate the results one has achieved unless they undergo the same training and discipline. And even so the same results shouldn’t be expected as we all are at a different evolutionary stage.

Science studies the outer world. Yoga the inner world.

What KY do you practice? Do you belong to any lineage?[/QUOTE]

Yoga has been going through trials and studies with the Department of Defense for the last 4 years for decreasing the symptoms of PTSD among soldiers. It is being used by our military because it works. So I disagree that the inner world cannot be examined. Brainwave patterns changed during meditation. Some things can be verified. While experience of God is not something that you can measure, many benefits and effects of yoga can be scientifically verified.

I am an SRF Kriyaban

#18

[QUOTE=kriyayogini;67400]Some things can be verified. While experience of God is not something that you can measure, many benefits and effects of yoga can be scientifically verified. [/QUOTE]

But not the goal of Yoga itself or the road one crosses through towards it, and the spiritual experiences awaiting there. Only it’s effects on our body and mind states that are ours and can be communicated but not experienced by others.

#19

[QUOTE=panoramix;67402]But not the goal of Yoga itself or the road one crosses through towards it, and the spiritual experiences awaiting there. Only it’s effects on our body and mind states that are ours and can be communicated but not experienced by others.[/QUOTE]

Yes the goal is union and that can only be verified by each individual scientist in their own laboratory of self-realization!

#20

Hello Panoramix and Kriyayogini and thanks for your replies.

If the universe itself is a hallucination and a logical one, that presupposes that your statement should be a logically valid statement, which furthermore implies it should be free from contradiction. However, if the universe is a hallucination, the statement that the “the universe is a hallucination” remains a hallucination as well, therefore the statement cancels its own logical validity.

But if we stay in the scientific, objective and logical realm we find that yoga as such also remains in the area of hallucination, because as far as scientific evidence goes, what science tells about yoga is merely that it is a way among others to alter one’s consciousness.
The “Altered state of consciousness” article on the Wikipedia lists yoga as one of the ways to reach this state:

In addition, it appears that the “results” that we can obtain through our efforts to get into the Yoga-triggered altered state of consciousness is a narcissistic view of the self, in which people are convinced that “they are God”, which is apparently considered a disorder by science.
Science has identified such grandiose self-view as one of the main characteristic traits of the narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) - a disorder of pathological self-love.

According to Wikipedia on the subject: “Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to self-centeredness” and the first of the main characteristic of the disorder is “a grandiose sense of self-importance”

It is hard to imagine any grander and more self-centered self-image than one’s view of the self as “God” or when someone can obtain calmness, safety, peacefulness and a sense of beauty only in the sensation that he is divine, he is the universe itself and/or the whole universe revolves around him.

Among the different subtypes of narcissists Wikipedia identifies the Fanatic narcissist:

As I mentioned, the more I research yoga, the more scientific evidence I find against it.

#21

I think this is another false premise. Coffee can alter your consciousness. Drugs can alter your consciousness. Anger can alter your consciousness. Love can alter your consciousness. Many things can alter the consciousness it’s more important to look at the positive impact that the consciousness altering activity has. And? What is your point?

I am sure that therapist are grateful for meditation positively assisting their clients in calming the mind and allowing themselves the space to think before they act on impulse.

I would not ask wikipedia but rather a psychologist or psychiatrist, what the true definition of a narcissist is. I think you’re confusing yoga as saying that one is god and that 1 is not separate from god, but a ray of god just like the sun has rays.
While there are some that have walked around saying “I am god”, I truly would consider those to be narcissistic persons, and that has nothing to do with the aims and ends of yoga.

Wanting to connect with what we feel disconnected from is very human. The wave goes back into the ocean and they are one. YOGANANDA says “The ocean can exist without the wave but the wave cannot exist without the ocean.”

Me thinks thou doth protest too much. We can discuss for days on end, but the proof is in the pudding! Either keep with your theory and don’t practice yoga, or start practicing with your theory in mind and prove yoga wrong or right. But all this talking will get you absolutely no where!

Cheers

Kriyayogini

#22

[QUOTE=kriyayogini;67413]I think this is another false premise. Coffee can alter your consciousness. Drugs can alter your consciousness. Anger can alter your consciousness. Love can alter your consciousness. Many things can alter the consciousness it’s more important to look at the positive impact that the consciousness altering activity has. And? What is your point?

I am sure that therapist are grateful for meditation positively assisting their clients in calming the mind and allowing themselves the space to think before they act on impulse.

I would not ask wikipedia but rather a psychologist or psychiatrist, what the true definition of a narcissist is. I think you’re confusing yoga as saying that one is god and that 1 is not separate from god, but a ray of god just like the sun has rays.
While there are some that have walked around saying “I am god”, I truly would consider those to be narcissistic persons, and that has nothing to do with the aims and ends of yoga.

Wanting to connect with what we feel disconnected from is very human. The wave goes back into the ocean and they are one. YOGANANDA says “The ocean can exist without the wave but the wave cannot exist without the ocean.”

Me thinks thou doth protest too much. We can discuss for days on end, but the proof is in the pudding! Either keep with your theory and don’t practice yoga, or start practicing with your theory in mind and prove yoga wrong or right. But all this talking will get you absolutely no where!

Cheers

Kriyayogini[/QUOTE]

Kriyayogini:

The wikipedia article refers to scientific sources, contrary to you, who only refer to your own opinion: “I think”

Of course we can discuss whatever we “think” until the end of times, yet the definition of science and scientific remains objective and independent of your or anyone’s opinion. And whatever Yogananda says does not qualify to be scientific either just because he says so.

“Me thinks thou doth protest too much.”

If you, as an apparently devoted advocate of Kriya Yoga, think that my asking the questions I raised here means “protesting”, then it is you who is protesting against reason and scepticism, ie, against the very basis of science. If your opinion represents that of the Kriya Yoga teachers/practitioners/organisations, then with your protest against my questions the rational conversation about Kriya Yoga ends here, all false claims of a “scientific” basis of yoga are dropped, and a cult-like dictatorship, dogma and thought-control around Kriya Yoga have been revealed.

#23

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67415]If you, as an apparently devoted advocate of Kriya Yoga, think that my asking the questions I raised here means “protesting”, then it is you who is protesting against reason and scepticism, ie, against the very basis of science. If your opinion represents that of the Kriya Yoga teachers/practitioners/organisations, then with your protest against my questions the rational conversation about Kriya Yoga ends here, all false claims of a “scientific” basis of yoga are dropped, and a cult-like dictatorship, dogma and thought-control around Kriya Yoga have been revealed.[/QUOTE]

Hi Yoga_questions,
It was very interesting discussion to read. I can relate to it a bit. I find myself having similar skepticism and strange energy/inspiration. I think about myself as very tolerant person, without any preconceptions and thus having ability to directly assess things. However, I found that often I like to read/listen to really devoted people (including fanatics). Somehow I want to see how blinded they are by their preconceptions and how it drives their thinking/behavior. And how hypocrite are their convictions about purity and high moral standards of their beliefs and usually non-direct aggression toward other faiths/systems. But I avoid expressing those feelings/thoughts, I don’t believe I’m objective myself and I would feel bad after (because at the end my intention wouldn’t be a care about their growth but rather joy of exposing their fanaticism).

I think this behavior is sort of projection. I am exactly like such blinded fanatic but I fail to see it - I project it on others. I want to break free from something in me that I don’t realize. And by seeing it in others and knowing how they could break free from prison of their blind beliefs I’m living through something I want to experience myself.

When I read this discussion I thought about that maybe you are going through something similar (I would think that your prison would be sort of intellectualism). Maybe you are searching for something more but everything you touch turns into theory/concept leaving you empty? Sorry if I presuppose too much.

Regarding science and yoga - I agree with you that term science is misused. I would personally prefer if yoga wouldn’t be related with science too much, that would be narrowing of its meaning.

#24

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67410]However, if the universe is a hallucination, the statement that the “the universe is a hallucination” remains a hallucination as well, therefore the statement cancels its own logical validity.

But if we stay in the scientific, objective and logical realm we find that yoga as such also remains in the area of hallucination, because as far as scientific evidence goes, what science tells about yoga is merely that it is a way among others to alter one’s consciousness.[/QUOTE]

The limits of your intellect are not the limits of reality, you can juggle with concepts all you wish but you will ever remain trapped in the labyrinth of your limited intellect and its root illusions: time, space and matter.

An objective fact is nothing but a convergence of subjective experiences, a convention, a tacit, unconscious agreement. I see there an screen, you see there an screen, and thus we unconsciously agree there is an screen. But in fact there is no screen but the experience of a screen in our consciousness. Screen is a concept, made up of other concepts called molecules, and so on… there are no basic building blocks. Universe is an endless, beginning-less web of logical relations.

And as to what science states about ASCs: I don’t care at all what it says as it has never examined them directly. Science has NEVER studied consciousness directly but its manifestation in the material plane, what is radically different. Only great meditators have studied it. And of course, in choosing between someone who has visited a country, or someone who has seen postcards of that country, my election turns to the former.

And it is not narcissistic, you’re wrong again. The sage does not think he is God and others aren’t, but that everything is God and there’s no difference between he and others, that everything is united and bathed in a blissful, divine light.

Regards!

#25

[QUOTE=Pawel;67421]

However, I found that often I like to read/listen to really devoted people (including fanatics). Somehow I want to see how blinded they are by their preconceptions and how it drives their thinking/behavior. And how hypocrite are their convictions about purity and high moral standards of their beliefs and usually non-direct aggression toward other faiths/systems. But I avoid expressing those feelings/thoughts, I don’t believe I’m objective myself and I would feel bad after (because at the end my intention wouldn’t be a care about their growth but rather joy of exposing their fanaticism).

I think this behavior is sort of projection. I am exactly like such blinded fanatic but I fail to see it - I project it on others. I want to break free from something in me that I don’t realize. And by seeing it in others and knowing how they could break free from prison of their blind beliefs I’m living through something I want to experience myself.

When I read this discussion I thought about that maybe you are going through something similar (I would think that your prison would be sort of intellectualism). Maybe you are searching for something more but everything you touch turns into theory/concept leaving you empty? Sorry if I presuppose too much.

Regarding science and yoga - I agree with you that term science is misused. I would personally prefer if yoga wouldn’t be related with science too much, that would be narrowing of its meaning.[/QUOTE]

Hi Pawel,

No, I am not going through the same. What you assumed is not applicable to me. I would have been really interested to understand how the advocates of KY can support the strong claims they advertise through the mentioned SRF organisation. On this thread however none of my questions were answered, especially this one is left in the dark:

[B]Why is Kriya Yoga called “science” and “scientific” if it isn’t?[/B]

At the moment we are stuck at yet another critical question, too:

Why is it considered a “protest” if someone asks questions and tries to clarify the truth-value of certain assertions about KY before jumping into KY?
Because someone says/believes/thinks so?

It is a logical fallacy, therefore the exact opposite of scientific and rational, to state that because I - and/or any other number of people - believe something to be true it is true. If one person or more state/think anything, that is not scientific knowledge - it is an individual or shared unjustified belief that may as well come from an individual deception/illusion.

For example - by individual experience we would all report that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Science however reports that the Earth revolves around the Sun. The latter is scientific knowledge, the former is an unjustified belief.
Is this my opinion? No, it is not - I just point at scientific, objective facts, while the yoga advocates point at their own opinions and experiences.

There is no reference to scientific research that would prove that the KY “technique” leads to a person’s unity with God. Instead the scientific knowledge about yoga is that it leads to an altered state of consciousness, which makes it a highly questionable technique, however divine and blissful the “results” may appear. There is no reference to research either as to how the speed of this spiritual path “leading to God” is compared to other paths “leading to God”. If there is any research like that, I would be interested to read them.

#26

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67424]I would have been really interested to understand how the advocates of KY can support the strong claims they advertise through the mentioned SRF organisation. On this thread however none of my questions were answered, especially this one is left in the dark:

[B]Why is Kriya Yoga called “science” and “scientific” if it isn’t?[/B][/QUOTE]

I’m not 100% sure, but I read somewhere that spiritual teachers from the “East” started to use term “science” in relation to yoga/meditation etc. in order to appeal to scientific mind of “western” people. And I guess there is a role of people disappointed in christian faith as too strongly based on faith - “scientific” terminology (plus accent on personal experience) is what speaks to such people.

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67424]At the moment we are stuck at yet another critical question, too:

Why is it considered a “protest” if someone asks questions and tries to clarify the truth-value of certain assertions about KY before jumping into KY?
Because someone says/believes/thinks so?[/QUOTE]

I can imagine if someone would criticize physics for being too shallow (I met once philosopher who just quickly dismissed physics as very narrow empirical description of the world - not sure of exact words but it was dismissive) without understanding of basic laws and way it is used. I would say - learn more and then discuss. It is bit arrogant but that’s reality - not everything can be grasped looking from the side.

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67424]There is no reference to scientific research that would prove that the KY “technique” leads to a person’s unity with God. Instead the scientific knowledge about yoga is that it leads to an altered state of consciousness, which makes it a highly questionable technique, however divine and blissful the “results” may appear. There is no reference to research either as to how the speed of this spiritual path “leading to God” is compared to other paths “leading to God”. If there is any research like that, I would be interested to read them.[/QUOTE]

Scientific claims of speed of reaching God sound funny to me. I didn’t even think to treat it seriously…

#27

How to know that all around me isn’t an hallucination?
The only thing I can be sure about is that I exist…

#28

[QUOTE=Pawel;67425]I’m not 100% sure, but I read somewhere that spiritual teachers from the “East” started to use term “science” in relation to yoga/meditation etc. in order to appeal to scientific mind of “western” people. And I guess there is a role of people disappointed in christian faith as too strongly based on faith - “scientific” terminology (plus accent on personal experience) is what speaks to such people.
…

Scientific claims of speed of reaching God sound funny to me. I didn’t even think to treat it seriously…[/QUOTE]

Pawel:

Thank you for your reply, especially for the above parts in which you answered my question. (one of them)

Thanks everyone for the conversation.

#29

[QUOTE=panoramix;67427]How to know that all around me isn’t an hallucination?
The only thing I can be sure about is that I exist…[/QUOTE]

How to know? Well, I can tell you, how: I am NOT a hallucination because I am also sure that I exist, and I am sure too, that I don’t hallucinate when I read your posts. What this means: it is only you of the two of us who is not sure if you are hallucinating when you read my posts, and who is not sure if I am hallucinating when I read your posts. Your not being sure if my posts here are hallucination therefore also implies that you are not sure that you are a hallucination or not. Therefore you are not sure if you exist.

There is a difference between the distinction non-physical and real-unreal. Even if the world is non-physical, it is a real world and it is logical, and it is a shared world. It is a system with rules that you cannot stretch, and if you try to stretch them, you will see that the rules will hit back and will be stronger than you.

Thanks again for the conversation and I wish you guys the very best.

#30

I don’t have a problem with questions. I never said to stop asking questions. But at some point you have to throw down the book and get busy! :smiley:

I have never said anything is so because Yogananda says so. Look at anything I’ve posted here and you’ll never find that statement from me.

You seem to be working from a premise that anything said by one who practices kriya yoga is based on dogma, mind control and “cult-like” dictatorship! Maybe just maybe it’s from people’s experience. We can take a horse to water but we can’t make 'em drink.

You appear to want empirical evidence that kriya works, there’s only one way to get that. I don’t represent, an organization or anything. I’m speaking as one individual, nothing more nothing less. Take it or leave it!

:wink:

[QUOTE=Yoga_questions;67415]Kriyayogini:

The wikipedia article refers to scientific sources, contrary to you, who only refer to your own opinion: “I think”

Of course we can discuss whatever we “think” until the end of times, yet the definition of science and scientific remains objective and independent of your or anyone’s opinion. And whatever Yogananda says does not qualify to be scientific either just because he says so.

“Me thinks thou doth protest too much.”

If you, as an apparently devoted advocate of Kriya Yoga, think that my asking the questions I raised here means “protesting”, then it is you who is protesting against reason and scepticism, ie, against the very basis of science. If your opinion represents that of the Kriya Yoga teachers/practitioners/organisations, then with your protest against my questions the rational conversation about Kriya Yoga ends here, all false claims of a “scientific” basis of yoga are dropped, and a cult-like dictatorship, dogma and thought-control around Kriya Yoga have been revealed.[/QUOTE]