whats a journo? cant sleep if I dont know that!
So you sussed me!!! hahaha checked it out on net!!
[QUOTE=kareng;40387]whats a journo? cant sleep if I dont know that![/QUOTE]
lol, a journalist
[QUOTE=thomas;40352]I tolerate them all.
Hinduism is Hinduism. Judiasm is Judiasm. Islam is Islam. Mormonism is Mormonism. Gnosticism is Gnosticsm. And Christianity is Christianity.
I tolerate them, but that doesn’t mean I have to say one religion is another religion.[/quote]
Gnosticism is not an organized religion. It refers to a category within religions themselves that have a mystical outlook and believe that the body itself can be used as an instrument to channel the divine or connect to divine. All religions contain gnostic sects and some religions are purely gnostic(Hinduism/Buddhism) In this case, we are talking about Christian Gnosticism, which like it or not is a valid sect of the Christian religion and is 2000 years old. It is even older than your Roman catholicism sect.
Look there is history and then there is what you believe. You believe the Church was founded by Jesus on the Apostles, with Peter as the first pope. History shows us, first of all that it is highly dubious somebody like Jesus even existed and the historical Jesus and the original Christianity are different to what is believed in the religion.
History is more complex than what you believe. There are various cultural origins that have contributed to the birth of Christianity. Platonism, Essenes, Mithra cult and Eastern influences of Buddhism and Hinduism. These influences can be traced by studying the actual history of this part of the world.
The oldest religion in the world is widely considered to be Hinduism and also the oldest living civilisation on this Earth is that of the Hindus. Thus it is highly likely Hinduism is the original mother of religion. In fact this is evident from just how religious India is still today. It is the most religious country on the planet. It is known that India was the largest and most powerful country in the ancient world and had colonies all over the world and spread its culture far and wide. This is how religions first formed. We can trace this movement of religion from Hinduism to Zoroastrianism to Judaism to Christianity to Islam.
Similarly, we can trace the migrations of people from India to around the world, taking their culture with them. Then that culture combining with other cultural streams already present.
It is known for more or less a fact that the original Greeks and Babylonians learned their philosophy, mathematics and astronomy from the Hindus. As those traditions are already developed in India long before they appear in Greece and Babylonia.
This is why we Hindus still have the purest form of religion, because we are the original source of religion. And in order to make sense of other religions one has to come back to Hinduism to understand the real teachings. Hence why you hear everybody today trying to reinterpret their religion using Yoga. It is even said that Jesus may have travelled to India 
Kindly accepted, thank you. 
(You’re not the first to make the mistake!)
I can’t understand your problem, just below you say: [quote=thomas;40326]He will come back again, but the same Christ in the same body.[/quote]
He will come back in a body! What else is that than reincarnation?
[quote=thomas;40326]Christ had one incarnation, and was born of the Virgin Mary. He lived among men, healed the sick, raised some from the dead, made a blind man see, walked on water, multiplied loaves and fish, etc. etc. He eventually was crucified, died, and then by his own power, came back to life. He had further interaction with the apostles and then rose to Heaven.
He will come back again, but the same Christ in the same body.[/quote]
Thomas, are you a closet reincarnationist?
[quote=thomas;40326]If you’re interested in what the early Church Fathers speculated about reincarnation, please see the article linked below:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Reincarnation.asp[/quote]
Thank you, Thomas, I am well acquinted with this history, but I have issues with the source of this info, namely the Roman Catholic Church. Info supplied to the world by the Roman Church, who has proved many times in the past that they are keeping info from the world and that they are not such a relaible source when it come to be honest about info (they rather burned knowledge than protect that knowledge).
Furthermore, I strongly feel that the recent discovered dead sea scrolls and other gnostic scriptures (namely the Nag Hammadi Library) containing references to reincarnation is much more relaible than the info of the 553 council of Nicea. The scrolls and other scriptures are not in the hands of the Roman Church, but are the property of the Hebrew University, which is more accessable to academics, historians and researchers.
Correction: The custodian of the scrolls is the Israel Antiqueties Authority (IAA).
Christ rose from the dead in the same body that was crucified. When he comes again, it will be to return bodily, and in the interim he has not shed this body, so it’s not reincarnation.
Wether 2000 of 2 years have lapsed between one bodily existence and the next, it remains reincarnation. What else will you want to call it then?
Technically, thomas is right Pandara. Roman Catholics believe that Jesus ascended to heaven in his body. Hence why they believe you can enter heaven in your body. So if and when Jesus returns, it would not be reincarnation.
But like I said there is history and facts and belief. As a rational person I am not going to accept Jesus, if he existed at all, ascended to heaven. I am going to accept he was crucified and killed on the cross or escaped from the cross, but died later like all mortals.
All religions contain gnostic sects and some religions are purely gnostic(Hinduism/Buddhism) In this case, we are talking about Christian Gnosticism, which like it or not is a valid sect of the Christian religion and is 2000 years old. It is even older than your Roman catholicism sect.
Are you citing a valid source or pulling this stuff out of your nether regions?
From the perpective of Catholics and probably every major Protestant denomination, Gnostics were not Christian. They appropriated some Christian teachings, but corrupted them with their own.
You might have your own reasons for considering them to be Christians, but Christians don’t consider them to be Christians.
You believe the Church was founded by Jesus on the Apostles, with Peter as the first pope. History shows us, first of all that it is highly dubious somebody like Jesus even existed and the historical Jesus and the original Christianity are different to what is believed in the religion.
Your source for this statement? Or is this your opinion stated as fact?
The oldest religion in the world is widely considered to be Hinduism and also the oldest living civilisation on this Earth is that of the Hindus. Thus it is highly likely Hinduism is the original mother of religion.
I bet you think Hindus invented toilet paper and were the first to land on the moon.
From a Christian perspective, ALL THINGS were created through Christ, the founder of Christianity. So any good thing that Hindus knew were because of Christ, and they owe their existence to him as does all humanity. Hinduism and other religions may have traces of Christianity, as there is but one truth, but all the truth that God chose to reveal to man subsists in Christianity, in perfect and uncorrupted form.
It is known for more or less a fact that the original Greeks and Babylonians learned their philosophy, mathematics and astronomy from the Hindus.
It’s not known as a fact, but “more or less” a fact? What does that mean?
This is why we Hindus still have the purest form of religion, because we are the original source of religion.
Older doesn’t mean better or free of error, and doesn’t mean that it’s the origin of all religions, either.
Hence why you hear everybody today trying to reinterpret their religion using Yoga.
“Everybody” is quite a stretch. I don’t know of anyone, myself. Most people have no interest in yoga, including Hindus, it seems.
It is even said that Jesus may have travelled to India.
Of course it would not be said by you since you said he probably did not exist.
Do those who say he traveled to India say that the Virgin Mary accompanied him? Did he perform any miracles there? Were the Apostles there too?
It is clear reincarnation was a widely prevalent belief in that parts of the world at that time(middle east) from the fact that we know for a fact that early Christians believed in reincarnation, including Church fathers. Early Greeks believed in reincarnation. As wel as from the bible itself where allusions are made to reincarnation.
For instance in the gospels the disciples ask Jesus whether a person born blind had sinned or his parents had sinned for him to be born as such. They would not be asking such a question had they not believed in the possibility of pre-existence of the soul in another life. Jesus’s answer does not reject either of the possibilties offered by the disciples, instead he says “So that the works of god maybe known” which is like saying it is natural law. Like Karma.
One of the clearest allusions in the bible is Jesus telling his disciples that John the Baptist is Elijah and verily John the Baptist has the spirit and power of Elijah. He even says others have not recognised him, but he has.
[QUOTE=thomas;40405]Are you citing a valid source or pulling this stuff out of your nether regions?
From the perpective of Catholics and probably every major Protestant denomination, Gnostics were not Christian. [/quote]
I will be very honest, I don’t care what your perspective is I care about what the facts say. The facts say one of the sects of the early Christians was the Gnostics. We have actual clear evidence in the form of manuscripts from that era. This makes them older than your own sect of Roman catholicism.
So they have as much right to be called Christian, as you claim. Now, the fact that you don’t claim to be Christian is basically your intolerance and disrespect for this sect and bigoted dogma where you believe your own sect defines Christianity. This may convince your own kind, but it does nothing to convince others.
Your source for this statement? Or is this your opinion stated as fact?
You should be the last person to ask for facts Anyway, there is no historical evidence for Jesus, outside of what we find written in the bible.
From a Christian perspective, ALL THINGS were created through Christ, the founder of Christianity. So any good thing that Hindus knew were because of Christ, and they owe their existence to him as does all humanity. Hinduism and other religions may have traces of Christianity, as there is but one truth, but all the truth that God chose to reveal to man subsists in Christianity, in perfect and uncorrupted form.
Like I said, there are your beliefs and then there is facts. The facts show that Hinduism is at the very least 5000 years old and at the most 10,000 years old. Christianity is 2000 years old. Islam is 1400 years old. Buddhism is 2500 years old. Judaism is 3000 years old.
The Vedas are dated at the very least 1500BC and at the most 6000BCE. Jesus, if he existed at all, appeared in 1AD, 6000 or 1500 years after the Vedas.
So it is very clear that Christianity did not inspire Hinduism to any rational and sensible person. However, as Hinduism is older than Christianity by at least a millenia, there is a greater case for Hinduism inspiring Christianity.
It’s not known as a fact, but “more or less” a fact? What does that mean?
It is known that Hindu doctrines appeared in Greece and Babylonia, but it is not known how this transfer of knowledge and culture happened. Hence why I say “more or less a fact” It is speculated that the original Hindu philosophy travelled to Greece through the Persians, as there is evidence that Greeks and Hindus had contact via the Persians prior to Alexandras attempted invasion of India. The other possibility is an even older contact as the Greeks and Hindus both belong to the same Indo-European culture and share a common cultural origin.
Older doesn’t mean better or free of error, and doesn’t mean that it’s the origin of all religions, either.
I never said that because it is the oldest it should be free of error. It is clearly the origin though because we can trace the movement of the religious ideas from India to Judea by studying history. Christianity is really a syncretic religion which has formed out of a fusion of various cultural influences Jewish, Platonic, Buddhist, Mitra cult.
“Everybody” is quite a stretch. I don’t know of anyone, myself. Most people have no interest in yoga, including Hindus, it seems.
There are more people practicing Yoga in America than there are members of the Southern Baptist Church. The estimates range from 20 million to 30 million Americans practicing Yoga. A large segment of these are actually Christians, and Christian churches themselves are offering Yoga classes. There is now even Christian Yoga and Praisemoves. There has been alarm raised by many Christian leaders on how much Yoga has penetrated not just into America, but into Christianity itself. Like it or not, Yoga is taking over Christianity 
There is reality and then there is what you believe
Hmmm, see what you mean SD, thank you for pointing out.
Perhaps Jesus was a special case…after all he was the son of God. They say.
Perhaps Jesus was a special case…after all he was the son of God. They say.
The operative word in that is “They say” lol
There are more people practicing Yoga in America than there are members of the Southern Baptist Church. The estimates range from 20 million to 30 million Americans practicing Yoga. A large segment of these are actually Christians, and Christian churches themselves are offering Yoga classes. There is now even Christian Yoga and Praisemoves. There has been alarm raised by many Christian leaders on how much Yoga has penetrated not just into America, but into Christianity itself. Like it or not, Yoga is taking over Christianity
Yoga is not taking over Chrisitanity.
Most who do yoga see it as exercise and nothing more.
Those who do see it as some kind of religion are not Christians in the first place.
If 20 to 30 million are practicing yoga, that means 270 to 280 million are not. I don’t see how that amount is taking over anything, and I don’t care if every Christian is doing an asana practice, it means nothing regarding their belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior, or any other Chritistian precepts. I and no other Christian needs to stand on our head or do a down dog to interpret our religion. We do these things (if we do them at all) for the sake of the health of the body, as we would if we jogged or worked out in a gym.
Unfortunately for you no kind of Yoga is free of Hindu presuppositions. Even asanas are based on Hindu suppositions of channeling sexual energy, many of the asanas are actually themselves prayers to Hindu deities. Such as the Sun salulations, which are prayers to the Sun god. The asanas are meditations in themselves because they involve striving to hold a posture and keeping focus, in order to develop mental discipline. Even doing this much has turned America towards the cult of the body and how keeping the body healthy is an important value in life. That is the opposite of Christian doctrine which tells you to deny the body.
Like it or not, many Christians are also doing meditations, chanting mantras. Meditation is just as big as asanas and is being offered across the country. The impact of Yoga on America can clearly be seen by just how many people believe in karma and/or reincarnation today. The studies show that 25% of Americans believe in reincarnation, this too in a Christian majority nation. Go to any bookshop go to the mind-body-spirit section it is full of Yoga and Hinduism. The amount of people in America with new age beliefs is probably very significant.
Christianity is under massive threat. So signfiicant the threat is, that many of the leading Christian figureheads in America are raising alarm. When they have spoken against Yoga, the people who have rose to defend it, are none other than Christians themselves
Quote:karen
Perhaps Jesus was a special case…after all he was the son of God. They say.
Surya The operative word in that is “They say” lol
I knew you would pick up on that Surya:)