Reincarnation: Samsara and Karma

Spirituality Religion
#21

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;61270]Religion and science are not separate in dharma and never have been. I cannot understand why religious people feel the need to separate them. Certainly Swami Viveakanda, the great savant of Hinduism of the 20th century did not have this attitude.

The explanation I gave makes scientific sense and explains the transformations that are constantly taking place between mind, matter and energy.

We have staggering amounts of proof now in science of mind, matter and energy interactions and effects. If you wish I can direct you to those studies. But somehow I think you have a narrow mind on this as has been evidenced by your previous reluctance to accept quantum physics has proven that physical reality does not exist without an observer. In that case I provided you a peer reviewed study from Nature magazine.

Is there a reason to maintain this absolute separatism between science and religion?[/QUOTE]

Actually, I did not accept it at the time because your diction was confusing. I initially thought you were going into metaphysics before I went back and re-considered your post.

In some ways, you assertion that

physical reality does not exist without an observer
is technically correct. I already know physicists and mathematicians would agree and disagree with you on many grounds; take the discussion to them. I’m good in Physics and Math but I’m not degree-material.

However, your belief that this truth about Quantum Mechanics invalidates all other sciences is completely incorrect. This is what you were arguing with me about.

Nature magazine? The same one that said the Aryan Invasion theory existed? Although I have been strongly suspecting Nature magazine of having anti-Indian biases, this study should be interesting. Please give me the links.

You misunderstand me; do I believe that science and Abrahamic religions are incompatible? Yes. We all know why. Do I believe several aspects of Dharmic religions and science and compatible? Yes. Is reincarnation one of them. In my [U]opinion[/U], not really. However, I would like to do more research into this topic before I make a final judgement as I am not knowledgable about Psychology. Luckily for me, I’m taking college-level Psychology next year. :smiley:

Ultimately, what I did want was not a scientific discourse of reincarnation but a philosophical and theological one. Understand my position. The bothersome idiots I told you about respect philosophical and theological arguments not what they will perceive as pseudo-scientific studies in reincarnation. You mentioned several justifications of reincarnation in Vedanta, Gita, and so on. Please provide them.

#22

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;61271]By the way the separation of science, religion and state are Western doctrines. This is not a dharmic doctrine which such separations never existed. Why do you insist on enforcing a Western doctrine?[/QUOTE]

I believe, more or less, in separating Retardabrahmic religions from science, not Dharmic religions.

So yes, I do believe in enforcing this Western doctrine - partially. :smiley:

#23

So simply by having a fixed thought in mind ANYONE can circumvent the laws of karma at death and end up in the bosom of VISHNU?

Curious.

Talents, abilities, Traits, Likes, dislikes CAN carry over from life to life.

Thats how they carry over. When embodied you can go on developing talents, abilites, traits, likes and dislikes . . . which arise in subsequent incarnations in accord with the workings of the Law.

The Violin Prodigy @ 4 years old?

The Lights out sports phenom that goes on to dominate his sport for the next two decades after turning pro?

These are just a couple of examples. It would be a pretty messed up system - if people were just arbitraily given gifts, talents and abilites . . . don’t you think?

The HIGHLY spiritually developed can view (in some manner) the contents of previous existences.
So yes - Spritual development eventually provides the means to know. Without the proper tools - i.e the means to know - this will remain a hypothesis.

#24

However, your belief that this truth about Quantum Mechanics invalidates all other sciences is completely incorrect. This is what you were arguing with me about.

I did not say it invalidated other sciences. I said that it falsified their theories

Nature magazine? The same one that said the Aryan Invasion theory existed? Although I have been strongly suspecting Nature magazine of having anti-Indian biases, this study should be interesting. Please give me the links.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640

You misunderstand me; do I believe that science and Abrahamic religions are incompatible? Yes. We all know why. Do I believe several aspects of Dharmic religions and science and compatible? Yes. Is reincarnation one of them. In my [U]opinion[/U], not really. However, I would like to do more research into this topic before I make a final judgement as I am not knowledgable about

Then read Stevenson’s published reports of his investigations: “20 cases suggestive of reincarnation” He has been published in several scientific journals.

You should read about studies into OBES which prove the existence of the soul. There have been experiments done where the subtle body has been detected using animal and electronic detectors. In this experiment the subject is told to leave their physical body and go to a remote location and read a hidden target there and report back. At the location they have a detector which can detect the presence of the subtle body.

As a Hindu you should not be opposing any of this research, but using it to corrobrate your religion. These studies prove the scientific validity of Hinduism.

Ultimately, what I did want was not a scientific discourse of reincarnation but a philosophical and theological one. Understand my position. The bothersome idiots I told you about respect philosophical and theological arguments not what they will perceive as pseudo-scientific studies in reincarnation. You mentioned several justifications of reincarnation in Vedanta, Gita, and so on. Please provide them.

The science described in Hinduism about reincarnation is what I told you in the OP. Matter returns to its physical substratum and mind returns to its mental substratum. This is known as the Samkhya theory of dualism where the observer and its objects of observation are ontologically distinct. Amongst them the observer is the the passive witness and the objects of observation are material phenomenon(including mind) Thus enduring between every state change is the witness. In other words the soul is never within a body, but only comes into association with a body. The cause for this is the soul has desire which requires an object of desire which are present in the field of objects. Thus the soul incarnates.

In Samkhya dualism matter includes both physical matter and mind. It is a continuum - mind matter continuum. All effects are transformations which begin first as mind, then energy, and then matter.

If you think this is pseudoscience then you think Hinduism is pseudoscience. This is exactly what Hinduism teaches about soul and reincarnation.

I really cannot understand why you would oppose the facts that mind and matter are transformations of one another? How else do you think you can move your arm. Are you not literally converting thought to electrical energy which then moves your arm? If your mind and body were not the same substance then how could they interact with one another?

Trust me, the science you have been told is sound. Also the studies you have been referred to are valid.

#25

[QUOTE=The Scales;61279]So simply by having a fixed thought in mind ANYONE can circumvent the laws of karma at death and end up in the bosom of VISHNU?

Curious.

Talents, abilities, Traits, Likes, dislikes CAN carry over from life to life.

Thats how they carry over. When embodied you can go on developing talents, abilites, traits, likes and dislikes . . . which arise in subsequent incarnations in accord with the workings of the Law.

The Violin Prodigy @ 4 years old?

The Lights out sports phenom that goes on to dominate his sport for the next two decades after turning pro?

These are just a couple of examples. It would be a pretty messed up system - if people were just arbitraily given gifts, talents and abilites . . . don’t you think?

The HIGHLY spiritually developed can view (in some manner) the contents of previous existences.
So yes - Spritual development eventually provides the means to know. Without the proper tools - i.e the means to know - this will remain a hypothesis.[/QUOTE]

No. That is not what we have been saying.

Its not a simple matter of holding onto a dying thought.

Take, for example, the parable of the sage and the deer. The guy forsook his duties to care for the deer his entire life. Even before death, his thoughts were fixated upon the deer.

As you can see, the materialistic desires and fixations that result in such dying thoughts are what count and not necessarily the thoughts themselves.

#26

I did not say it invalidated other sciences. I said that it falsified their theories

Not necessarily.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640

Excellent. I will look into this further.

Then read Stevenson’s published reports of his investigations: “20 cases suggestive of reincarnation” He has been published in several scientific journals.

K.

You should read about studies into OBES which prove the existence of the soul. There have been experiments done where the subtle body has been detected using animal and electronic detectors. In this experiment the subject is told to leave their physical body and go to a remote location and read a hidden target there and report back. At the location they have a detector which can detect the presence of the subtle body.

Links?

This is known as the Samkhya theory of dualism where the observer and its objects of observation are ontologically distinct. Amongst them the observer is the the passive witness and the objects of observation are material phenomenon(including mind) Thus enduring between every state change is the witness. In other words the soul is never within a body, but only comes into association with a body. The cause for this is the soul has desire which requires an object of desire which are present in the field of objects. Thus the soul incarnates.

Explain further. Provide me links. I need to know more.

In Samkhya dualism matter includes both physical matter and mind. It is a continuum - mind matter continuum. All effects are transformations which begin first as mind, then energy, and then matter.

If you think this is pseudoscience then you think Hinduism is pseudoscience. This is exactly what Hinduism teaches about soul and reincarnation.

I really cannot understand why you would oppose the facts that mind and matter are transformations of one another? How else do you think you can move your arm. Are you not literally converting thought to electrical energy which then moves your arm? If your mind and body were not the same substance then how could they interact with one another?

I cannot say anything about this matter. Once I gain more knowledge, I will give my opinion.

#27

If I have a DVD-ROM with data on it and I burn the DVD-ROM, does the data as well go to some realm?

#28

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;61267]I really hate it when people tie religion into science.

Surya Deva, thanks for your “explanation” of reincarnation.

What I actually wanted was a philosophical/theological justification of reincarnation as given in the writings of numerous sects within Hinduism.

I don’t want to hear illogical pseudo-science. I agree with Sarva on this one.[/QUOTE]

Religion, beliefs, faith and second hand acceptance formulate illusions which may hinder awareness/consciousness. I?m certainly not a scientist. Someone who makes fun of your beliefs demonstrates insecurities driven by an unaware ego.

#29

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;61290]Religion, beliefs, faith and second hand acceptance formulate illusions which may hinder awareness/consciousness. I?m certainly not a scientist. Someone who makes fun of your beliefs demonstrates insecurities driven by an unaware ego.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Well said.

#30

Quetzalcoatl

This message is hidden because Quetzalcoatl is on your ignore list.

Hey Surya Deva, its the dog again!

Throw him some pieces of Jewish flesh. That should drive it away.

#31

Throw him some pieces of Jewish flesh.

[B]Member was banned for five days for this post - Admin - 05/18/11 10:19 am central[/B]

#32

हे नीत्ज़े और सूर्यदेव, यह साला कुत्ता के औलाद अपने मुख कब बन्द करेङ्गा?

Has it really come to this, posting a picture of dead jewish children from the holocast? I think it’s highly inappropiate here.

#33

That was incredibly disgusting. Q you have really hit the cess pit now. Do you realise how disgusting and offensive this is to people? I have reported your post.

#34

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;61287]If I have a DVD-ROM with data on it and I burn the DVD-ROM, does the data as well go to some realm?[/QUOTE]

The data is on the DVD-ROM and gets destroyed with the DVD. On the other hand as the mind is not in the body, it does not get destroyed when the body is destroyed.

The mind is not in the body and if it was we could open the body up and see it there. This has now been proven by neurobiologists too like Karil Pribream that the mind is not in the physical realm. He demonstrated this by studying memory and found that memories were not in any location in the brain. It was found for example with studies on rats trained to travel in a maze, that if large portions of their brain were subtracted, the memories of the maze remained there. The only difference was function was impaired. The memories rather than being in a location in the brain, are distributed across the brain in every cell. The actual source of the memories is non-local

#35

Links?

A bibliography of scientific studies into OBES: http://obebibliography.info/science.htm

The scientific research into OBES is more than a century old. A lot of overwhelming evidence has been produced to prove that there really is a subtle body(sanskrit: sushkhmana sharira)

Explain further. Provide me links. I need to know more.

How about I explan it to you in modern techno speak?

Your mind is not in your body, but only in association with your body - controlling it remotely. You know just like in an action video game you are controlling a computer generated body with your controller. The more you play the more identified you become with the CG body, and you start to react to whatever happens to the CG body. If your CG body is suddenly ambushed by other CG bodies you react with shock as if you have been really ambushed. Your body will go through actual physiological changes like your heart beat will increase when your CG body is attacked. Endorphins will be released in your body after your CG body wins a major victory.

In experiments done in viritual reality to test embodiment it has been shown that the subject can be tricked into thinking it is the virtual body they are controlling such that they lose complete consciousness of their real bodies. Then you take your virtual body as seriously as you would your real body. If it is attacked, you will defend yourself as desperately as you would if your real body was attacked.

This is exactly what is happening during reincarnation. You lose consciousness of your subtle body and become identified with the physical body you are controlling remotely. This process is reversed during OBES where you become conscious of your subtle body again.

I am not just speaking from theory my friend. I have done it many times myself. You are doing it unconsciously everytime you go to sleep: your dream body is indeed your subtle body. It is possible to become fully conscious of your subtle body while dreaming if you become aware that you are dreaming. Then you gain control of your subtle body.

Physical death is basically when your subtle body disassociates from the body you are controlling and returns to consciousness of the subtle body. Much like you disassociate from the CG body when you turn the game off.

I cannot say anything about this matter. Once I gain more knowledge, I will give my opinion.

Read up on the scientific literature on reincarnation and OBES for further information.

I use modern scientific research to back up all tenets in Hinduism because this is the only way modern scientific civilisation can be convinced. They do not accept logical arguments(anumana) because they accept only empirical facts. This is rather limiting because supersensual realities can only be known either through logic or through meditation.

#36

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;61320]That was incredibly disgusting. Q you have really hit the cess pit now. Do you realise how disgusting and offensive this is to people? I have reported your post.[/QUOTE]

What happened?!?!

I said something I shouldn’t have but…what exactly was the picture about?

#37

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;61316]हे नीत्ज़े और सूर्यदेव, यह साला कुत्ता के औलाद अपने मुख कब बन्द करेङ्गा?

Has it really come to this, posting a picture of dead jewish children from the holocast? I think it’s highly inappropiate here.[/QUOTE]

Never mind…