Should one take siddhis vibhuti as metaphor?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#11

The Yogasutras are not written in symbolic language, but very clear, precise and technical language.

What is symbolic about saying if you do samyama on x object you can walk through a wall? What part of “walking through walls” is symbolic? It is a very literal description.

You either accept it is possible or you reject it. However, to pretend the Yogasutras does not say this is dishonest.

Most of the siddhis described in the sutras can actually be done to small extents today using technology. Including levitation and teleportation,
and they work exactly on the same principles as explained in the sutras, with the obvious exception that they are done using technology rather
than ones mind.

#12

Agree with SD.

If you want to know you’ve got to go see. Just saying something isn’t possible because you don’t think it is - is unwise.

They only way you’ll know is if you can do ‘objectional’ meditation like a CHAMP.

How does one get to be a Champ?

They train like a mofo.

#13

Scales,

You can train for lifetimes upon infinite lifetimes, it is not going to make you walk through walls, just as you can train for as long as you want to preserve the body, but one cannot transcend the death of the body. The physical body is bound by physical laws, and if one thinks these siddhis to be transcending physical laws one is simply being foolish. Somewhere in one’s mind, one has been clinging to the idea simply because it re-affirms one’s own egotism. And with enough desire, one can come to believe just about anything at all. There are Christians who are waiting, and will be waiting eternally for the Second Coming of Christ. It is a great siddhi.

#14

Surya,

Much of the yogic literature contains symbolism which are as veils for processes which are totally different. One reason for this is simply as safegaurds and devices of security to prevent those who are not in a position to practice certain methods who would simply do themselves more harm than good.

Besides this, a number of siddhis have simply been invented by the authors as ways to get disciples to practice the sadhana. Combining this with siddhis which are literal, others which are metaphorical, and it is almost impossible to discriminate one from the other. When it is spoken of in certain literature of the power of the yogi to unite the sun and the moon, this is not literal. The sun and the moon refers to the active and passive energies of the ida and the pingala nadis which when fused together assist the awakening of Kundalini. In other contexts, it refers to the active and passive energies of the bindu visarga behind the top part of the head, and the manipura chakra - which has much to do with tantric processes that involve vajroli mudra.

And the fact of the matter is that unless something has entered into the realm of one’s direct experience, one should not accept any second hand reports, regardless of who says it.

#15

So you’ve achieved Samyama?

#16

Amir,

We do not see eye to eye on this matter, as you should know from our previous disagreement on the same topic. This assertion that some siddhis are literal, some are metaphorical and some are lies is entirely your invention, and does not occur anywhere in the Yoga sutras or other Yoga literature. You have arbitarily decided that x siddhi is real, y siddhi is symbolic and z siddhi is a lie, simply because this is what you believe yourself. It would be honest of you then to qualify your statements by saying it is your opinion, rather than to state it as a fact. This is very misleading and misinforms people sincerely asking for information.

Likewise, your assertion that the Yoga sutras is full of symbolic content is again entirely your invention and no Yoga scholars would agree with you. The Yoga darsana is a system of philosophy from the Sanskrit tradition. Like all systems of philosophy in the Sanskrit tradition, it is articulated in technical and precise language, giving definitions. It is written in pure prose. In fact let us look at the first few sutras:

1.1. Now begins the teachings of the science of Yoga
1.2. Yoga is the cessation of the modifications of the mind field
1.3. Then the pure self is revealed abiding in its natural state
1.4. At other times, the pure self is misidentified with the modifications of the mind
1.5. The modifications are 5-fold. They are either painful or not painful
1.6. They are correct knowledge, incorrect knowledge, imagination, sleep and memory
1.7. Correct knowledge is perception, inference and reliable testimony
1.8. Incorrect knowledge is based non-facts and non-real things
1.9. Imagination is verbal knowledge devoid of real facts
1.10. Sleep is the non-deliberate absence of modifications/or absence of awareness
1.11. Memory is the unmodified recollection of words and experiences
1.12. Repeated practice and renunication are the means to still the modifications of the mind field
1.13. Repeated practice is the sustained effort to still the modifications
1.14. Long, uninterrupted, alert practice is the foundation for stilling the modifications
1.15. Renunciation is the practice of detachment from desire

It is clear from the above that there is no symbolic content here. It is precise and technical language. It gives very clear definitions, then gives classifications and then lists and defines those classes and sub-classes. Very much in line with how the Sanskrit philosophical tradition writes.

Now if we look at the actual description of siddhis, we will find again it is technical and precise language:

3.21: By control over the the form of the body one can suspend the rays of light reflecting from oneself so that one becomes invisible to the onlooker. One can become visible again by bringing back the power of perceptibility

3.31 By control on the pit of the throat, one can overcome hunger and thirst

3.40 By control and mastery over the upwards flowing subtle force(udana vayu) one can walk over water, swamps and thorns without touching them. One can also levitate.

There is no room for ambiguity here on what the Yoga sutras is saying. It is in clear, precise and technical prose. Just because you do not think it is possible, does not mean you misrepresent what the sutras are saying.

#17

You can train for lifetimes upon infinite lifetimes, it is not going to make you walk through walls, just as you can train for as long as you want to preserve the body, but one cannot transcend the death of the body. The physical body is bound by physical laws, and if one thinks these siddhis to be transcending physical laws one is simply being foolish.

I think by your own admission that you have not reached the highest heights of your spiritual jouney yet, you are really limiting yourself by throwing away the possibility that these siddhis maybe real. Perhaps you should practice what you preach and first reach the stage of samyama before you discount these siddhis.

I already know from my knowledge of physics that you are wrong and your knowledge of physics is outdated. You still maintain the notion that the body is bound by physical laws and cannot act outside of these laws. But today quantum non-locality is a proven fact about the universe. This non-local property allows for things like quantum tunneling where an object can pass through a wall; quantum teleportation where an object can appear and reappear at another point in space; quantum levitation, where an object can be caused to levitate by generating an upwards pushing force from free space and zero point energy where free energy can be generated from any point in free space:

For experimentalists studying quantum mechanics, the fantastic often turns into reality. A recent example emerges from the study of a phenomenon known as nonlocality, or “action at a distance.’ This concept calls into question one of the most fundamental tenets of modem physics, the proposition that nothing travels faster than the speed of light. An apparent violation of this proposition occurs when a particle at a wall vanishes, orily to reappear-almost instantaneously-on the other side. A reference to Lewis Carroll may help here. When Alice stepped through the looking glass, her movement constituted in some sense action at a distance, or nonlocality: her effortless passage through a solid object was instantaneous. The particle’s behavior is equally odd. If we attempted to caladate the particle’s average velocity, we would find that it exceeded the speed of light. Is this possible? Can one of the most famous laws of modern physics be breached with impunity? Or is there something wrong with our conception of quantum mechanics or with the idea of a 'traversal velocity”? To answer such questions, we and several other workers have recently conducted many optical experiments to investigate some of the manifestations of quantum nonlocality. In particular we focus on three demonstrations of nonlocal effects. In the first example, we ‘race’ two photons, one of which must move through a ‘wall.’ In the second instance, we look at how the race is timed, showing that each photon travels along the two different race paths simultaneously. The final experiment reveals how the simultaneous behavior of photon twins is coupled, even if the twins are so far apart that no signal has time to travel between them.

http://www.dhushara.com/book/quantcos/qnonloc/qnonloc.htm

Most of what Patanjali describes is very real according to the latest physics. Most of it has been done already on a smalls scale. It is on a small scale because we do not yet have the technology to do it with big things, but were getting there.

#18

Surya,

“This assertion that some siddhis are literal, some are metaphorical and some are lies is entirely your invention, and does not occur anywhere in the Yoga sutras or other Yoga literature.”

It is my own understanding. One may agree or disagree with it. But the Truth is not to be found either in the yoga sutras or other yogic literature.

“Likewise, your assertion that the Yoga sutras is full of symbolic content is again entirely your invention and no Yoga scholars would agree with you.”

That is not what I had said. I had said that using symbolism to veil other processes is something which is common, both in the East and the Western traditions. I had not mentioned anything about the Yoga sutras in my response. Neither am I interested at all in what the yoga sutras claim about the siddhis. I know from direct experience which one’s are possible and which one’s are simply imagination to encourage the disciple to practice the sadhana.

“But today quantum non-locality is a proven fact about the universe. This non-local property allows for things like quantum tunneling where an object can pass through a wall; quantum teleportation where an object can appear and reappear at another point in space; quantum levitation, where an object can be caused to levitate by generating an upwards pushing force from free space and zero point energy where free energy can be generated from any point in free space:”

I am aware of this. But one should be careful to become deluded by such an understanding. The quantum laws are just one aspect of the laws which are functioning in the universe, they are the building blocks of the atomic. At a scale larger than the atomic, the laws are diametrically opposite. And that is what has created a great confusion amongst the scientists, how these laws can be diametrically opposite and yet part of the same existence. Many people have been clinging to the findings of the quantum world to support their own beliefs and ideas, but without understanding that they do not help you to come to more knowledge, but only to realize how ignorant one is about the existence in which one lives.

#19

Scales,

“So you’ve achieved Samyama?”

Yes.

#20

Surya,

“I think by your own admission that you have not reached the highest heights of your spiritual jouney yet, you are really limiting yourself by throwing away the possibility that these siddhis maybe real.”

Yes, my work is far from complete. And siddhis are not at all reflections of one’s expansion, they simply show that certain aspects and energies of one’s mind which were previously asleep have become awakened. That is not much. Just enough training will do it. Just as a martial artist may attain to a certain skill with the body which is beyond the capabilities of the average person, similarly one can attain to certain capacities of the mind. But it does not mean anything at all as far as one’s enlightenment is concerned. Although siddhis do develop in the process of coming closer and closer to enlightenment, that is something totally different.

One does not have to accept what I am saying, but one will have to understand that the culture in which the yoga sutras is written has always been highly dialectical, and yet strongly intellectual. And it has been the intention of many authors to appeal to the imagination of the kind of people who would be reading the work.

When it is said in the yoga sutras :

3.45

“Then extraordinary powers appear, such as the power to be as small as an atom, as well as bodily perfection and indestructibility”.

One should first ask what it is that he means by the first part. Is it the body which can be as small as the atom, or the mind ? If one means the first, the one is simply hallucinating. The second part that the body can attain to a state of indestructibility is either complete nonsense, or just symbolic. Because it is possible to bring your body to such a state, where the prana absorbs into the body in a way in which even if you swallow knives and razor blades, it will not create any internal damage at all. But if one starts thinking that this means the body is going to live forever, then too, one will simply be hallucinating.

#21

I know from direct experience which one’s are possible and which one’s are simply imagination to encourage the disciple to practice the sadhana.

It is entirely possible that the ones you have verified are only as far as your current abilities go. I would recommend you remain open to the others as well, because by starting to believe the others are nonsense, you are limiting yourself to the level you are already at.

There are various siddhis that appear the deeper the states of mind you go into(i.e., the deeper the level of prakriti you enter) From what you describe I think you are still only on the surface level. But you have mistaken this to be the limit. If you want to progress further you are going to have to keep an open mind. Patanjali says ignorance is mistaking the unreal for the real, the false for the truth and pain for pleasure.

am aware of this. But one should be careful to become deluded by such an understanding. The quantum laws are just one aspect of the laws which are functioning in the universe, they are the building blocks of the atomic. At a scale larger than the atomic, the laws are diametrically opposite. And that is what has created a great confusion amongst the scientists, how these laws can be diametrically opposite and yet part of the same existence. Many people have been clinging to the findings of the quantum world to support their own beliefs and ideas, but without understanding that they do not help you to come to more knowledge, but only to realize how ignorant one is about the existence in which one lives.

There is only confusion because scientists are refusing to get rid of classical physics because they cherish the objective and real world too much. It is impossible that the universe would behave a certain way at the microscopic level and then the complete opposite at the macroscopic level. No, it behaves the same and can be explained in terms of quantum mechanics. So far we have been limited by our technology in using QM for large objects, but now the situation is improving. Now QM can be used to work with larger objects as well. What this basically means the old theories of there being separate physical objects suspended in time and space are wrong, reality is not like that. Rather, reality is a single and coherent unit, where everything is interconnected and exists as a wavefunction of quantum vibrations. Everything you see around you is just a phenomenal form as rendered by your senses, it really is just a wavefunction and is interacting with everything else in the universe at once.

You are going to have to at some point abandon these beliefs you have of a physical universe with time, space and matter. It will hold you back from progressing.

As I have pointed out several times on this forum already the idea of separability and reality has long been falsified by quantum physics. There is no such thing as a real and objective existence. This is what allows for technologies like quantum teleportation, quantum levitation, quantum tunneling and quantum energy extraction. In the future we will being using these technologies openly. All of these quantum technologies are basically what Patanjali is describing that can be achieived when you reach a certain level of mind in yoga.

Again I am not sure what level you are at, but it does not sound like it is too deep.

#22

Then extraordinary powers appear, such as the power to be as small as an atom, as well as bodily perfection and indestructibility".

One should first ask what it is that he means by the first part. Is it the body which can be as small as the atom, or the mind ? If one means the first, the one is simply hallucinating. The second part that the body can attain to a state of indestructibility is either complete nonsense, or just symbolic. Because it is possible to bring your body to such a state, where the prana absorbs into the body in a way in which even if you swallow knives and razor blades, it will not create any internal damage at all. But if one starts thinking that this means the body is going to live forever, then too, one will simply be hallucinating.

It means what it says. Patanjali is very clear when he is talking of siddhis of the mind and siddhis of the body. Here he is saying you can reduce the size of your body to the size of an atom or render your body indestrucible. Again this depends on what level of mind you are at.

Most of the siddhis Patanjali describes take place in very advanced level called samyama. Which is an advanced samadhi. It is known as samyama because it is a state of perfect control of prakriti. Hence, why the abilities describes are so extraordinary/fantastic. Although you claim to have reached this level, I don’t really think you have. I think rather you have been able to tap lower siddhis(which is an accomplishment in itself) but samyama is really advanced stuff and very few people on this planet have probably attained it.

#23

Surya,

“There is no such thing as a real and objective existence.”

What one considers “real” or “unreal” are just one’s own relative ideas about it. But whatsoever one considers “real” or “unreal”, one still has to eat food through one’s mouth and hear through one’s ears.

#24

Surya,

"Again I am not sure what level you are at, but it does not sound like it is too deep. "

One may be far too fascinated by these siddhis. They do not reflect at all one’s insight into existence, nor are they indications that one has come to an awakening.

#25

Surya,

“Here he is saying you can reduce the size of your body to the size of an atom or render your body indestrucible.”

Then I disagree with Patanjali.

#26

Surya,

“It is known as samyama because it is a state of perfect control of prakriti.”

This is just a projection of the ego, which wants to inflate it’s lust for power onto the whole universe. If one becomes aware for even a moment of how much is involved in something as simple as the process of breathing, one can only remain in a deep gratitude. Even if one attains to super-human capabilities, nothing is absolutely in man’s control. It does not matter how much knowledge one gathers, nor how many siddhis one develops.

#27

i am more apt to agree with you amir mourad. cause if someone could like reduce the size of there body we would certainly have seen of heard about it in some way in the last century in my oppinion.

#28

amirmourad would you mind going throught the siddhis and telling us witch one you think are real and witch ones are fake or use some kind of metaphor?

Thanks

#29

mewtwo,

Even if it was possible, one still would not have heard about it. Simply because very few people practice these methods. And amongst those very few, even few penetrate into the deeper levels of the discipline. In the West, people are largely unaware of it, but in India there have been yogis who have been living underwater for days without dying, or burying themselves underneath the Earth for years. There is nothing mystical or magical about it. The body absorbs energy in various different ways. One way is through oxygen. But the body does not need to absorb energy from oxygen to sustain itself. If your awareness is sensitive enough, your system can absorb energy from prana, or the subtle energies of nature. In fact, the method for burying yourself alive for days is quite simple in hearing about it, but very difficult in practice. You have to eat a certain amount of food, keeping the belly at least half full so that your body can digest energy. Once you have buried yourself, you just imagine a flame of light in the center of the forehead at the third eye. Once your mind becomes absolutely absorbed in that center in a certain way, it starts absorbing prana from both it’s own system and the outer environment. And like this, the breath becomes completely arrested, you can remain buried under the Earth, or underwater, for several days, months, or years.

Such things are possible. But there is also a line that is to be drawn as to what the body is capable of, it’s powers are limited, as are the mind, man is not omnipotent.

#30

i agree with you in that the body is limited but the mind is not. Once one does something like ascend this phisical body and become a being of pure conciousness one can untap the full power of the mind.