I am talking about vegetarian deits here and not vegan diets.
I’m a vegetarian. My daughter is a vegan. My reasons for becoming a vegetarian are personal, not spiritual. Did my spirituality guide me toward a vegetarian lifestyle? Well yes. But it is a personal choice. With that personal choice comes a firm commitment too. Vegetarians and Vegans alike must be diligent, making sure they get all the required nutrients. Recent blood work for me came back severely deficient in Vit. D. My daughter was deficient in B12. (your list is correct Flex)
A meat eater can be just as enlightened as the vegetarian. With that being said,
We have canine teeth for a reason. The reason is to eat meat. We have an appendix. While there is debate whether it has a function in modern times, our primitive ancestors needed it to digest. Humans have evolved since primitive times. Today, we no longer need to use our canines to pull apart meat (unless it’s my mother in laws roast!). With this evolution, comes an evolution in how we grow and make our food. Did primitive people know that spinach would give them needed iron? Did they know soy is a good source of protein? No. That came later.
Today, we do have a choice. Right or wrong, it can be based on ones personal, spiritual, religious or cultural morals and values. It is this way because of evolution. (technology too) not because we’ve always had a choice.
Again, the fact that there are vegetarians that can be body builders, live healthy lives and full human life spans refutes the argument that vegetarian diets are deficient in any way, shape or form.
I have seen similar strawman arguments from the opposite camp against non-vegetarianism.
Your articulated position seems to presumes what is suitable for one is suitable for all. The fact that it has been done only means it can be done. It does not stretch to inherently mean it is suitable for all bodies, all chemistry, at all times. Something may be deficient for one and not for another.
And if anyone finds fault with my above post I would like to hear the reason (s) we have canine teeth and an appendix. I honestly would.
And Flex, just to qualify what I said about your list. Yes, it is a long and accurate list, but at the same time one can stave off these deficiencies by having their blood worked checked at least once a year and using supplements to balance out your nutritional needs. Most vegetarians and vegans that I know take multiple supplements. No human can get all of their daily nutrients, eating everything you are suppose to and still maintain your weight. Impossible. Result of this are deficiencies. But these deficiencies can be overcome and managed with supplements.
As a side bar to the discussion, the vegans and vegetarians I know (including myself and daughter) hardly ever get sick. Is is because we don’t eat meat? Is it because we are just lucky? Is it due partly to the fact that I try to only buy organic and locally grown? I don’t have the answer, but I’ll sure take being healthy! And on the flip side, there are those who get physically ill if they don’t eat meat. Again, I don’ have the answer which leads me to assume our needs can be quite different.
I’ve been vegetarian for more than 15 years and my blood tests are perfect.
Vegans otherwise should be careful. I would add to FlexPenguin’s list: Cystine and Methionine essential amino acids.
Glad your labs came back good! Any helpful tips you’d like to share? I was honestly floored when my vitamin D came back at 16. It should be between 30-80. Dr. said it could be an absorption issue and he’ll wait to see how my next labs come back. May need to see a specialist. Hope they come back normal!
Though I don’t take issue (find fault) with your position, whatever it may or may not be…the fact that something in human anatomy remains in human anatomy isn’t a particularly compelling argument.
The changes that occur in beings (called evolving) over the course of time (called millennia) aren’t fully within our current understanding. You could call these things evolutionary leftovers. Or you could call them multipurpose. But I don’t think an evolutionary perspective (one where human beings are evolving over time from a barbarian nature dwelling in the base of the spine) would be one of “well we have these teeth which are good for eating flesh therefore we should eat flesh”. Otherwise it might be very challenging to describe something like anger.
Man stood up for a reason, no?
Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oGqPc6poS4&feature=fvw
I am starting to really question the theory of evolution. It appears humans have been on this planet much longer than has been accepted. Human fossils have been found tens of millions of years ago, completing refuting the theory.
In any case I agree with your argument. If we ate meat in our savage evolutionary past, it does not mean we have to eat it today. Aren’t we supposing to be evolving into the divine?
Edit: Sorry wrong link was posted originally.
Surya Deva thank you for your prayers for my daughter, who despite my description of her is a extremely moral person who believes in non-material things such as truth , justice, doing the right thing etc. She said your post was creepy because you presupposed our need to hear about accepting death; at this point that is an unnecessary thing to say and not what either I or my daughter needed to hear. I was wrong to assume that most of your knowledge was theoretical and have been bothered since I wrote that : I don’t know you or what you have gone through but it was a tactless post as many of yours are. You are also right that it is intelligent to have compassion but as the energy flows upward from the spinal root the heart comes before and I personally feel you have hopped over that chakra in your rush to unravel the top knot. Whatever is the case in truth , I don’t know, I am posting the thoughts that occur to me now.And to stay on topic just a bit : I repeat - can you show me the set of all cannibals that doesn’t include an enlightened person as a member ? Of course it’s impossible to know just as your original question to me is impossible to know- it’s a thought experiment and reflects my capacity to imagine. I can also imagine enlightened Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon though they may have lived much more brutal lives, the zen example is key here to understand the position I’m taking - suddenly when in a detached mind seeing or hearing something that presents a paradox to the rational mind so that the intuitive takes over and sees the oneness of life : that can happen anywhere , anytime to anyperson. Yoga just sets up things into a system to make it happen more often. Sincerity is the vital ingredient. You can’t keep an honest man down, so to speak. Once again thanks for your prayers. Elizabeth is doing well and we Thank all well wishers and her MPRI treatment center,Bloomington, Indiana, at the cutting edge of radiation- it’s an amazing technological innovation and perfect for my daughter. She met a Pilates teacher here and intends on keeping up with exercise. I expect she’ll try yoga when she gets home. Namaste
She said your post was creepy because you presupposed our need to hear about accepting death; at this point that is an unnecessary thing to say and not what either I or my daughter needed to hear.
It is interesting that you should see this. I did not recall saying anything about death, so I decided to look at the original post:
May Elizabeth receive happiness, love and fortune in abundance. Just remember disease is temporal, it will not remain there forever. A day will come for Elizabeth’s soul where all disease and suffering will be gone, and only pure joy will remain.
There is nothing about death here. In fact what I have said is that disease is temporal and one day it will be gone. I think this is the best reassurance you can give somebody, for reminding them of the temporalness of suffering, makes them realise that suffering they are experiencing at the current momet, will not endure and eventually respite will come. One day in our spiritual evolution absolute respite will come when all suffering will be gone and only joy will remain.
I think you have strongly misread what I have said. I wished her love, happiness and fortune. There is nothing negative here. But where the negative is, is in how you and your daughter have interpreted it. I think the fact that you posted a thread and asked for good vibrations, and then to criticise the intentions of the people who gave them, is quite unappreciative and ungrateful. However, like I said, I did it selflessly because I genuinely felt empathy for your daughter and I do not regret doing it, despite your unkind receptance of my words and remarks to me 
In your mind you have imagined the development of the chakras as some kind of linear process. I am not surprised, because Western people tend to believe time is a line with a beginning, middle and end, rather than a cyclic event of moments emanating from a timelesss source. The truth is all chakras develop concurrently and one must develop holistically. You cannot just develop in compassion and neglect intelligence.
Your body has a natural order and if any one aspect of your body is more preponderant than the other the order is destroyed. So one must develop holistically. The rejection of intelligence by people here is a shortcoming - not a virtue.
I concede to you by the way that I did originally say try to imagine an enlightened cannibal - and that is what you did. I later realises what I should have asked you was find me a a real example of an enlightened cannibal.
It is true that man has canine teeth which has evolved for the purpose of eating meat. And nature never puts anything in one’s system without it performing a particular function. But the fact is that simply to eat meat is absolutely necessary. Perhaps, if you are living in a place where the climate is too hot for agriculture, then it is fine to eat meat for survival. But today, it is no longer a matter of simple survival. Everything is made available to you, ready made, the man of the Western society lives in such materialistic comfort and security, that it is simply an option. And people are willing to create so much unecessary suffering simply for the sake of taste. It is absolutely barbaric. And in fact, it was inevitable. Because man is still living out of a deep unconsciousness, the same unconsciousness out of which the other animals have evolved. And if one has been living out of unconsciousness, to simply live out of animal nature is inevitable. That is why the whole of man’s life has become nothing except self-preservation, survival. Man’s whole life seems to be nothing more than the desire to fulfill comfort and security, and the tragedy is that life is such a flux, always changing, that whatever man attains it is not capable of providing anything more than temporary satisfaction.
[quote=lotusgirl;48571]@Panoramix
Glad your labs came back good! Any helpful tips you’d like to share? I was honestly floored when my vitamin D came back at 16. It should be between 30-80. Dr. said it could be an absorption issue and he’ll wait to see how my next labs come back. May need to see a specialist. Hope they come back normal![/quote]
Do you expose yourself to sunlight?
What I do for that is having lunch under sunlight half naked. Try it if you can, it’s a wonderful experience!
You have D vitamin supplements too.
This is an interesting conclusion that I also came to when mulling over vegetarianism yesterday. I haven’t eaten meat in 15 years, and I have no desire for it. But just to hypthesize, I asked myself what I would eat if I were to eat meat. The idea of eating red meat disgusts me, even though I enjoyed it very much as a kid. I can’t fathom eating poultry either. So I decided that if for some reason I [I]had[/I] to eat meat, fish would be the only thing I could even attempt to ingest. The reason why is that it seems to me there is some heady, almost inebriating quality that exists in meats in increasing amounts from seafood to poultry to pork and red meat. I guess that is tamas.
Now I wonder why some meats have a higher amount of tamas than others. Is it related to the degree of consciousness of the animal?
Thank you for your response! Yes, I am out in the sun without sunscreen every day during the spring, summer and fall months. During winter, I took a vitamin D3 supplement. I am a gardener, so believe me, I am out in the bright sunlight quite a bit.
My doctor put me on a 50,00o I.U. prescription of Vitamin D. A very large dose, that hopefully will get my numbers up to normal.
I have purchased a HappyLight which I use the recommended 20-30 per day during the winter months.
So it is very curious as to why my #'s are so low.
I can only imagine how wonderful it would be to sit naked (or 1/2 naked) and have lunch in the sun. I live in the city and I would probably scare the neighbors and embarrass my kids! Guess I could put on a bathing suit though…hum…may do this! Thanks!
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48617]I concede to you by the way that I did originally say try to imagine an enlightened cannibal - and that is what you did. I later realises what I should have asked you was find me a a real example of an enlightened cannibal.[/QUOTE]
I realize, based on the elitism of ‘progressive’ cultures, that tribal cultures who practice/d cannibalism probably do/did not have an advanced recording system that documented their spiritual achievements. But, I have a very hard time imagining that certain Aztecs, for example, would not be described by members of their own culture as having achieved enlightenment, even though they occasionally chewed on the sliced buttocks of men of conquered tribes.
Similarly, even though they are not cannibals, I cannot imagine the Inuit (Eskimo), whose diet primarily consists of cute, doe-eyed animals, do not have enlightened individuals in their culture. Again not recorded.
I can, however, attest to meeting highly enlightened men and women from the American Native culture, who have endured hardships beyond your wildest dreams and have emerged on the other side, who do eat meat, while maintaining a profound respect for animals and nature in general.
Trinley,
"Now I wonder why some meats have a higher amount of tamas than others. Is it related to the degree of consciousness of the animal? "
It has very little to do with that, and more to do with the structure of the meat itself, as well as one’s own level of sensitivity. Different people will respond to eating meat differently just as different minds respond to different situations depending on their conditioning. Meat can have a “tamasic” effect for those minds which are vulnerable, but for one who has come to a certain point of expansion, even if one eats as much meat as possible, one still remains in absolute communion with one’s true nature. The fire cannot burn it, and the water cannot wet it.
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