Six Tibetans

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

[QUOTE=The Five Tibetans;20491]Hi, I’ve been teaching The Five Tibetans for 9 years and agree with Vestnikra that there is a definite need to be ‘in the present moment’ when practicing The Five Tibetans. Otherwise it is just like another calisthenic exercise instead of “meditation in motion”. Regarding the time it takes to do them, we did a test of a group of 20 practitioners who were up to 21 repetitions per day and the average time taken was just under 10 minutes. This is the “T5T” version that we teach which incorporates 3 x energy breaths between each Rite and the addition of core stability to the movements. Because the core muscles are activated correctly the spine is protected during the movements. In T5T we do not collapse the vertebrae and discs of the spine together which is a potential cause of pain or injury to those with a previous history of injury or prone to it due to degeneration, muscular weakness/imbalance etc. If you are not conscious when you are doing these movements there is a real tendency to use the momentum of the movement & therefore be unaware of any pinching or other sign of discomfort. Continuing to repeat movements incorrectly the same way over time, can lead to repetitive strain type injury so it is important to have your alignment, control correct throughout the sequence. If you think about it you are doing 21 repetitions of the 5 postures per day - over 365 days of a year that is 38,325! So yes, awareness is very important![/QUOTE]

It takes me at least 20 minutes for all 5 rites, (21 repetitions) and I noticed that the more you practice, the time tends to increase, your breath in and breath out become deeper and fuller, the movements amplitude becomes higher etc.

#22

I have looked at a few web sites and even bought a DVD, Ancient Secret of the Fountain of Youth, with Jille Gleason and Rory Reich.

A question occurs: what do we really know about the origin of The Five Tibetans ? I saw
a story with an English colonel who went to a monastery in Tibet (which monastery ?)
and saw there monks in better shape than the other monks in Tibet. Do we have some
evidence about those monks in good shape ?

Please do not misunderstand me: I do NOT want to throw doubts about the validity of The Five Tibetans. I just want to be convinced of the validity.

#23

That’s fair, oak333.
Their history participates in their validity more than the reports of these folks who use it right now?

#24

[QUOTE=oak333;20816]A question occurs: what do we really know about the origin of The Five Tibetans ? I saw
a story with an English colonel who went to a monastery in Tibet (which monastery ?)
and saw there monks in better shape than the other monks in Tibet. Do we have some
evidence about those monks in good shape ?
[/QUOTE]

We can only guess now and rely on a common sense.
Some of my friends who practice yoga notice that 5 tibetans remind them some of the regular yoga movements.
The more I think about them the more I am convinced that Piter Kelder DID NOT disclose all details of the rites. There is nothing about breathing in the original book and he did not say a word about concentration, concsiousness and meditation which are very important part of the rites I think.

#25

A British colonel in India (back when British colonels were roving through India) might not have noticed that he should pay attention to the breathing or anything more subtle than that.

Not sporting, don’tcha know, peeking in someone else’s noodle and all that rot.

(erm, do we know when he was there? Was this very recently, or in the empire/colonial days?)

#26

Well, it looks like the things are a little more complicated.

Wikipedia lists a lot of disputed theories. It is pretty much info but no conclusion drawn.
Anyway, it seems that some people of Tibet do not recognize T5T like Tibetan. I talked to the owner of a Tibet store in Toronto (Tibetan 100 %) and he, politely, declined the discussion about T5T. We talked much more about Tibetan Medicine, Milepa, etc.

Here there is a dissertation about the origin of T5T:

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/study/history_buddhism/general_histories/introduction_history_5_traditions_buddhism_bon.html

In this dissertation the origins of T5T seem to be rather confused, shared between India, Tibet, China, and Nepal.

It is not so sure that we will ever learn the exact truth about it. So what remains is to make sure that the practice of T5T is really sound and beneficial.

What about asking Carolinda Witt, who has been teaching it for 9 years or so ? She posted on this thread under the handle The Five Tibetans.

Testimonials about the benefits (or ills) of T5T are welcome.

#27

[QUOTE=Techne;20830]A British colonel in India (back when British colonels were roving through India) might not have noticed that he should pay attention to the breathing or anything more subtle than that.
)[/QUOTE]

Good point, Techne. I read somewhere that The Tibetan Rites were performed in Tibet with: 1) breathing 2) mantras.

Do we have any info on that ?

#28

[B]Breathing[/B]
Personally I think the omission of breathing in Kelder’s original 1939 & 1946 versions is a regrettable oversight! The Tibetans are renowned for their breathing techniques including their famous “Tumo Breathing”. Using just breathing and visualisation Tibetan monks can sit outside on a freezing cold night draped ONLY in soaking wet sheets. They must be able to maintain their body temperature and dry the sheets! This is just one example.

I took the view that the purpose of The Five Rites is rejuvenation or anti-aging if you like. If that is the case and we are going to do the routine every day - why not supercharge them through using breathing? So I added natural, full breathing (vitality in, wastes out) to the Rites based with modifications on the Complete Yogic Breathe. This is done between each Rite. Why?

How well you breathe literally dictates your lifespan. Animals that breathe the slowest live the longest. Here’s the research:

a[B]) The Framingham study (monitored thousands of participants spanning a 30 year period)[/B] focused on the long-term predictive power of vital capacity and forced exhalation volume as the primary markers for life span. “This pulmonary function measurement appears to be an indicator of general health and vigor and literally a measure of living capacity”. Wm B. Kannel and Helen Hubert.

These researchers were able to foretell how long a person was going to live by measuring forced exhalation breathing volume, FEV1 and hypertension. We know that much of hypertension is controlled by the way we breathe. “Long before a person becomes terminally ill, vital capacity can predict life span.” William B. Kannel of Boston School of Medicine (1981)

The test ?Forced Exhalation Volume? measures the amount of air a person can forcefully breathe out in one second, and is called FEV1

[B]b) Lung Function May Predict Long Life Or Early Death [/B]
How well your lungs function may predict how long you live. This finding is the result of a nearly 30-year follow-up of the association between impaired pulmonary function and all causes of mortality, conducted by researchers at the University at Buffalo. Results of the study appear in the September issue of Chest.
Schunemann HJ, Dorn J, Grant BJB, Winkelstein W, Jr., Trevisan M. Pulmonary Function Is a Long-term Predictor of Mortality in the General Population 29-Year Follow-up of the Buffalo Health Study. Chest 2000;118(3)656-664.
[B]
c) Deep/Slow Breathing Beneficial in Heart Failure or Other Diseases[/B]

In teaching chronic heart failure patients (CHF) how to breathe, researchers at the University of Pavia, Italy discovered that slowing the respiratory rate to 6 breaths a minute reduces shortness of breath, improves pulmonary gas exchange and exercise performance in patients with CHF. Practicing slow and deep breathing thus can be beneficial in heart failure or in other diseases. (Source: Lancet. 1998 May 2; 351(9112):1308-11.)

A world-renowned breathing expert worked with me in creating the breathing philosophy in T5T - I can’t post a link yet as I am new, but feel free to write to me in the contact form of my website T5T dot com. By the I call it T5T (which is a Registered Trademark) to distinguish the T5T method from everyone else because it is unique in that it includes core stability, step-by-step progression and the breathing. Also self-development.

#29

Going a little further.

Scroll down to "Disputed Origins."

...A comparison shows a remarkable similarity between the Rites and authentic Tibetan "phrul khor" exercises.....

It has been argued that The Five Rites PREDATE YOGA as we know it today by as much as 700 years, and could not have been derived from either Tibetan or Indian yoga.

However, Chris Kilham -author of the 1994 book The five Tibetans-states that : the issue at hand is NOT the lineage of The Five Tibetans. The point is their IMMENSE POTENTIAL value for those who clear 10 minutes a day to practice.

Another point now: I heard about a Tibetan Saint with the name NAROPA. He practised
The Six Yogas. It looks like there is a relationship between The Five Tibetan Rites and the yogas of Naropa. It looks like, but to me it looks like I do not know yet this relationship.

To summarize my present knowledge and questions:

  1. The Five Rites (or six) seem to have an authentic old lineage, although it is not
    clear what.

  2. The Five Rites (or six) seem to have great benefits.

  3. The Five Rites (or six) seem to have been accompanied by Breathing and Mantras.
    Which are the authentic breathing exercises and mantras ?

#30

The Six Tibetan Rites (Five are more commonly practiced in isolation as the 6th Rite is a practice for those who are more or less celibate) - are not the same as the 6 Yogas of Naropa which are six visualisation practices. Very briefly they are (from Wikipedia):

[ol]
[li] Tummo ? the Yoga of Inner Heat (or Mystic heat).
[/li][li]Gyulu ? the Yoga of the Illusory Body.
[/li][li]?sel ? the Yoga of the Clear Light or Radiant Light.
[/li][li]Milam ? the Yoga of the Dream State.
[/li][li]Bardo ? the Yoga of the Intermediate State (between life & death).
[/li][li]Phowa ? the Yoga of the Transference of Consciousness, to a pure Buddhafield.
[/li][/ol]

I donate to the Gyuto Monks University, Dharamshala, India and so far, none of the monks have heard of The Five Tibetan Rites of Rejuvenation.

I agree with Kilham. The true origins of the Rites will undoubtedly continue to be speculated upon - however the benefits are not! Regardless of what book you read or DVD you follow - the benefits people report are always the same! The benefits they report are the same as Peter Kelder described in the very first book on the Rites called “The Eye of Revelation” published in 1939.

You can download this book for free off my website T5T dot com - under the heading “Learn or Teach” then free downloads. Enjoy!

#31

The Six Tibetan Rites benefits become obvious only in case of correct practise. From my experience many people (including myself) don’t do it right and hense they don’t get any impressive results.

#32

Dear Carolinda,

What a delight to share with you in these forums.

Thank you for your kind input and helpful info (free download).
I have been a close student to two (brothers) Tibetan Lamas
for more than 20+ years studying Dzogchen
in the Nyingma Lineage of Tibetan Buddhism.
It has been interesting blending…merging…the
ancient wisdom of these traditions, i.e. hatha yoga
and dzogchen. As a yogini for many years it was natural for me
to explore the Tibetan aspect of asana, etc. which of
course led me to the 5 rites. I am a big fan also of
Kum Nye which is a wonderful system of Tibetan movement.
Tarthang Tulku calls it “a yoga-like tradition of Tibetan Buddhism.”

Have you practiced Yantra Yoga? For example, the unique
(1999) video, [I]The Eight Movements of Yantra Yoga [/I]
by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu (instructed by Fabio Andrico) is fabulous.
(for anyone here not familar with this topic)…Yantra, in Tibetan,
can also be translated as "movement of the body,"
as well as its usual Sanskrit meaning of mandala, or geometrical form.

Thanks again; this has been an enjoyable post.

Best with Blessings, (Tashi deleks!)
Nancy

#33

To vestnikRA,

I forgot to include in my previous post a response to your question:

Is it some kind of Yoga?

Yes, 5 Rites [I]are[/I] a kind of Yoga: Tibetan Yantra Yoga

May your practice be strong,
Tashi Deleks!
Nancy

#34

How very wonderful that you are a close student to two (brothers) Tibetan Lamas studying Dzogchen in the Nyingma Lineage of Tibetan Buddhism. I too would follow a very similar path, but am fully occupied with practice & teaching The Five Tibetan Rites. Will have to be a few years later or in the next life!

I had a look at your website and love your 360 concept and approach.

I’m glad you reminded me of the “The Eight Movements of Yantra Yoga” - I have been meaning to purchase this for ages. I need a DVD version though and at the time of writing this post, I have yet to easily find where to purchase one.

Tashi Deleks! Thanks for your great response.

Carolinda

#35

Dear VajraYogini Friend, Carolinda,

Glad to meet you, and thank you for
your kind words. I am happy to learn
from a mentor of the 5 Rites.

I will post some url’s when I get
a little more time to help you find a DVD.
Snow Lion Publications put out the original
VCR that I have; also there is a book form of
Vairochana’s Yantra Yoga by Snow Lion.

In the meantime…google [I]Yantra Yoga[/I]…
you should get Namkhai Norbu’s site with info on global
teachers, etc. leading to purchase of the DVD.
There is another Tibetan (Bon tradition)
Dzogchen master, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, that has
authorized a teacher of Yantra…can’t remember his name
in this moment. If you google[I] Lingmincha Institute [/I]you may
come across this teacher (I think he’s in Texas, USA).
Hope that helps. You’ll be fascinated with the movements
in this work…

What I find interesting in the (8 Movements Video)
Tibetan Yantra Yoga is that the movements
are mirrored for men and women, i.e. instruction
different for female vs. male. I found that to be unique!

Also, Carolinda, if you feel inspired to ‘connect’ with my teachers,
I am offering their link. They have hundreds of you tube
teachings online for you to see and hear them so you don’t
have to wait a lifetime to hear the Dharma…;). Isn’t the
internet great? Khen Rinpoches also have many, many books
available (easy to purchase from Snow Lion).
www.padmasambhava.org

Have a beautiful day.
PS I read that you are a hot air balloon pilot…wow!
Ever been to the international balloon fiesta in New
Mexico? Perhaps one day we shall meet.

Best with Blessings,
Nancy

#36

This is the Tibetan Yoga Teacher I mentioned above:

ALEJANDRO CHAOUL-REICH, Ph.D., is a senior student of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche and has studied [I]trul khor [/I]with many masters of the B?n Buddhist tradition of Tibet. Alejandro is an assistant professor at the University of Texas (U.T) Medical School. He teaches meditation to cancer patients and their supporters and is involved in research using tsa lung trul khor with cancer patients at the U.T. MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. Alejandro received his Ph.D. in Tibetan religions from Rice University.

Alejandro Chaoul-Reich has been teaching retreats for more than a decade at the request of Geshe Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, guiding students in a deep exploration and familiarization of the body’s energetic dimension.