Guru is needed till the inner guru is activated
What about initiation (though)?.
That’s the topic of the thread.
I don’t disagree with you btw.I think it helps if some other flesh person is shining a mega-watt lamp just to jump-start,so to speak ,your own little lamp.To show you the way.Fire up your bhakti, or divinely inspire you, and lay out a do-able path or one that can work for alot of people.
Namaste.
[QUOTE=core789;31822]What about initiation (though)?.
[/QUOTE]
when an unenlightened person teach you about enlightenment, he is actually transferring his ideas to you.
When an enlightened person teach you about enlightenment, he is actually transferring enlightenment to you.A transfer of energy takes place between guru and disciple
This is the basic principle of initiation.
[quote=Shivoham;31973]when an unenlightened person teach you about enlightenment, he is actually transferring his ideas to you.
When an enlightened person teach you about enlightenment, he is actually transferring enlightenment to you.A transfer of energy takes place between guru and disciple. This is the basic principle of initiation.[/quote]
Namaste,
Shivoham,
I really appreciate this and your words has added instantly much light for me to the whole issue of initiation.
Blessings,
We got yoga through the scriptures. When this scriptures repeatedly stresses on the importance of a Guru in the path of yoga, what logic is there to simply deny it.
If you cant understand or get something, denying is the easiest thing to do .
This attitude is not fair for spiritual seekers. We must simply be seekers.
[QUOTE=Pandara;7404]Hi,
I had a discussion with a fellow yogi this afternoon about Kriya yoga. My understanding has always been that you need initiation into Kriya yoga. You can do the asanas and pranayama, but they won’t be as effective as when you had an initiation. According to her this is not necessary and that the Kriya yoga she does is so powerful that you don’t need initiation. She at lenght explained to me some of the asanans and pranayama etc.
Can somebody shed some light on this please.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by [U]INITIATION[/U]?
Perhaps some of us are struggling with the very idea of “initiation” seen either as an external intervention in one’s spiritual journey or as a discriminating act.
But perhaps there is something entirely different. A critical part of Kriya Yoga is taught directly by guru to an eligible student. One of the reasons is that Kriya Yoga involves some advanced exercises directly on the sustaining life-force in the body that without proper supervision can actuallly harm.
That is also the reason why Kriya Yoga is considered a slightly faster track for self-realization. Those born with spiritual legacy of past lives, especially on the path of devotion, are better suited as candidates for Kriya Yoga. With proper training these candidates can consideraly shorten time required for yama, niyama, asana and pranayama.
Initiation is required to verify the eligibility accrued from the past lives and to ascertain readiness for a passionate pursuit of Yoga.
Hi CM,
There are many definitions on the web of initiation and I am sure you can search that.
For me personally initiation meant a new beginning, an opportunity to open a door and to experience a spiritual unfoldment, it was a shift in awareness and over time an assimilation of all that heppened to me during my kriya practices.
Hi Pandara,
Is there a particular school of kriya yoga or kriya that you have practiced, in the past, or currently practice( or perhaps indeed you’re preparing for to practice)?
I know it might indeed be the case that for some (& some schools) during “initiation”, kind of like an oath might be taken that perhaps suggests students don’t talk about or share their practices with others.I do agree that initation could function like a spiritual injection(whether it’s cloaked in ritual or not) with lasting substance.
I guess it doees’nt really matter, as whatever serves you is all that really mattters.
But i am just curious.If you’ve taken such an oath or subscribe to such things then fair enough.I’m a believer in having teachings open-sourced , i.e available to all, rather than just perhaps shared amongst a select lucky few.In principle i could never subscribe to that unless there was soome good reason(s)…I cannot really see how it might help yoga for the best.Those that find some teaching useful will naturally be drawn to them…Those that thave no “spiritual” inclination will not. But we will have spiritual possibilites within us all,which will bear fruit as long as we choose to tap into them.
If you don’t feel like sharing then i respect that. I’m just curious.
[quote=core789;32300]Hi Pandara,
Is there a particular school of kriya yoga or kriya that you have practiced, in the past, or currently practice( or perhaps indeed you’re preparing for to practice)?[/quote]
Hi Core,
It was no particular school, but a specific lineage. Schools doesn’t really mean much to me and I tend to ignore it, but lineage is very important as I understood it from my teacher. I was initiated by Sri Shibendu Lahiri and you can read more about him here: http://www.kriyayogalahiri.com/htmluk/kriyayoga-lore.htm
I have practiced everything he gave us religiously in the past and still practice them. I want to say this as this is important to me, you need the physical presence of a teacher to guide you through this. I was fortunate that my teacher Sri Durga was already initiated and knew the kriyas very well and she could guide me through the changes I experienced. I know there is much criticism against this on the forum, but I feel strongly about it and will stand by this point.
Currently I am taking two of my own yogis through the kriyas. And no I can’t give them the initiation, I can only give them the practices. We all plan to visit Sri Shibendu at a point in future in India so that they can receive their initiation, or if he visits South Africa again.
[quote=core789;32300]I know it might indeed be the case that for some (& some schools) during “initiation”, kind of like an oath might be taken that perhaps suggests students don’t talk about or share their practices with others.I do agree that initation could function like a spiritual injection(whether it’s cloaked in ritual or not) with lasting substance.
I guess it doees’nt really matter, as whatever serves you is all that really mattters.[/quote]
No, there was no swearing to secrecy or oaths or any prohibitions. Shibendu specifically asked us to share freely (as he did) to those who ask for it and I have always been prepared to share freely. We are free to talk about the kriyas and asanas he gave us, but the initiation itself, that is sacred and he asked us not to reveal too much about that. Fact is I can’t really reveal too much about it as it was all in Hindi/Sanskrit and I understood very little of it, more important was the spiritual impetus the initiation provided.
[quote=core789;32300]But i am just curious.If you’ve taken such an oath or subscribe to such things then fair enough.I’m a believer in having teachings open-sourced , i.e available to all, rather than just perhaps shared amongst a select lucky few.In principle i could never subscribe to that unless there was soome good reason(s)…I cannot really see how it might help yoga for the best.Those that find some teaching useful will naturally be drawn to them…Those that thave no “spiritual” inclination will not. But we will have spiritual possibilites within us all,which will bear fruit as long as we choose to tap into them.
If you don’t feel like sharing then i respect that. I’m just curious.[/quote]
Core,
I have no problem sharing with those who asked and I will in a separate post in this thread post the kriyas. It is extensive and I will first need to type up in MS Word and then publsih here, so please give me a day or two.
it all depends on what one desires/want, how far they want to go into the delves of their desires and how aware they are in terms of the knowledge/tools needed to reach their destination or travel their journey. At any point in their individual journey they will make a conscious decision whether they want an outside help (teacher/guru/initiation etc) or go it alone. What motivaters one might demotivate another. Its human nature. its all fair play.
Yes the right teacher is helpful.
The Right Teacher is the one most useful for you.
If you want to practice Kriya then a proper lineage holder can impart the secrets.
If you want to do the vajrayana then a lama would be good.
If you need your Bhakti lit as was said then a teacher may do that for you.
If you want to make heads or tails of the intentionally esoteric teachings then some form of initation into their secret meaning is required. This can come in the form of the right book, the right person, signs within the prakriti, and so on.
In the same way if you want to learn the basics of asana, pranayama, bandha, mudra then a teacher would be good. How can you learn otherwise? The teacher can be in the form of a book. Iyengar is in Light on Yoga is he not? Does he not initiate you through his words? Buddha is in the Dharma is he not?
You will pull what you need to you through your desire. It may not be a guru. It may just be a piece of information - however it may come.
[QUOTE=The Scales;32725] You will pull what you need to you through your desire.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Powerful words my friend.
Pandara & All,
I think i get what you are saying here.
Lineage is somehow sacred & sanscrosanct,wheras schools don’t need to be.
I wonder if this could be ,for e.g, becuase teachings can or could be be abused or their purity lost( if they are not passed on through authorised or accepted channels)?What is the compelling case for making them secret if they’d be otherwise unintellgible to the "initiated ".I apprecaite how they coud be dangerous or harmful.But is is the risk greater if some are openly shared to anyone that enquires.?
There are in total 8 kriyas. The first four as I understood it from my teacher is given to you each upon initiation. Kriyas 5-8 is not given but rather sensed intuitively by the kriyawitan (person who does kriya yoga).
Here with follow a description of the first five practices that is the First Kriya:
[B]1. Talabya Kriya[/B]
Talabya Kriya or Kechari Mudra helps to achieve the state of Tranquil breath while practiced in conjunction with Pranayam. It is an essential precondition before a Kriyanwita is introduced to the next kriya.
In the words of Lahiri Mahasay, “Putting the tongue into the head or to the area between the eyebrows provides one to be able to connect the individual self of the seeker to the cosmic Consciousness or inner Consciousness of the inner Self, the Kutastha.”
Start off with 50 mudras in the morning and increase over time to 100.
[B]2. Kriya Pranayam[/B]
The [B]Downward Journey[/B] (you do 12 of them of 22 seconds each) as pointed out by Lahiri Mahasay himself is divided into four steps:
- Raising the tongue in kechari mudra, breathing in using Ujjayi pranayama, as you breathe in visualize the breath running down the shushumna nadi from ajna chakra down to mooladhara chakra.
- crossing rudra granthi (= psychic knot) at the level of vishuddha chakra,
- crossing vishnu granthi at the level of manipura chakra and finally,
- crossing brahma granti at the level of mooladhara chakra.
The [B]Upward Journey[/B] (you do 12 of them of 22 seconds each) takes the same route back, as you release the Ujjayi breath you visualize the breath running up shushumna nadi starting at the level of kundalini shakti just below mooladhara chakra.
- crossing mooladhara chakra
- crossing swadisthana chakra,
- crossing anahata chakra
- crossing vishuddha chakra and come to rest in ajna chakra
Repeat the next round.
[B]3. Navi Kriya[/B]
Start by doing Pratistha: repeating Om once at the level of each chakra, starting from mooladhara to ajna chakra and visualize it at the back of the spine.
[B]To do Navi Kriya[/B] – Visualize navi chakra on the front of your body a little lower than manipura chakra at the back along the spine. Use ujjayi breathing in, swallow, hold and apply jalandhara bandha and repeat Om inwardly into navi chakra. Release the bandha and then the breath. Repeat 4 times in total. On the 5th you breathe in (ujjayi pranayama), but throw your head slowly back and repeat Om inwardly into manipura chakra visualized on the back of the spine. In the end you should end up doing 100 Om’s into navi and 25 into manipura.
End off kriya by doing Visarjan: exactly same as Pratistha, but you start from ajna working down to mooladhara.
[B]4. Yoni Mudra[/B]
Start by doing Pratistha: repeating Om once at the level of each chakra, starting from mooladhara to ajna chakra and visualize it as the back of the spine.
Many people teach Shanmukhi mudra as yoni mudra here, however I belief it is a mistake. This is what Shibendu taught us:
Sit in padma asana and assume yoni mudra with the hands. Apply kechari mudra and by ujjayi pranayama breathing in while all your attention is in ajna. Once the breath has been completed repeat Om into ajna and release the breath.
This kriya is practiced once every night before going to bed.
End off kriya by doing Visarjan: exactly same as Pratistha, but you start from ajna working down to mooladhara.
[B]5. Maha Mudra[/B]
Start by doing Pratistha: repeating Om once at the level of each chakra, starting from mooladhara to ajna chakra and visualize it as the back of the spine.
Sit in utthan padasana, with right leg out stretched.
Perform kechari mudra.
Take deep breath in, while exhaling bend forward and clasp big toe with both hands.
Slowly inhale, keep head up and spine as straight as possible, repeat Om into ajna once.
Release, come up by slowly exhaling.
This is one round, repeat 12 times.
Repeat 12 times to the left.
Repeat 12 times with both legs stretched out forward.
End off kriya by doing Visarjan: exactly same as Pratistha, but you start from ajna working down to mooladhara.
[I][B]Important Notice:[/B] May I ask that if you follow these practices that you treat them as sacred and with the necessary respect they deserve and apply them with an attitude of gratitude and reverence to the Divine for the great opportunity you have received to have access to this kriya. Most importantly, please stick to your practice, get a teacher if you don’t have one, because your awareness will change and you will need the guidance of a loving teacher along the way.[/I]
Blessings to all and thanks to the Divine.
[quote=core789;32736]Lineage is somehow sacred & sanscrosanct,wheras schools don’t need to be.
I wonder if this could be ,for e.g, becuase teachings can or could be be abused or their purity lost( if they are not passed on through authorised or accepted channels)?What is the compelling case for making them secret if they’d be otherwise unintellgible to the "initiated ".I apprecaite how they coud be dangerous or harmful.But is is the risk greater if some are openly shared to anyone that enquires.?[/quote]
Core,
My teacher always told us that lineage = credibility. And I think the credibility of a teacher/teaching is clearly an issue that has surfaced via so many posts here on the Forum over the past few weeks. Each individual has his/her own level of inner understanding and how you will or not perceive/receive any teaching is dependent on your own inner Light and understanding.
Thanks Pandara for the detailed information and words of wisdom.
Dear Pandara,
Thanks for your time & energy and for sharing.
The flip side of this, the way i see it, is that if something is shrouded in secrecy and sharing is not done, which you have generously done here,then chances are that it would seem to be more likely that teachings only end up in the hands of a select lucky few rather then us all. That is the main issue i see here.
Regarding this statement ,perhaps you might care to expand on it.
I agree with you ,that sometimes there is only one in the lineage that is treated as master key-holder,through the centuries. This is vertical transmission rather than horizontal transmission more appropriate to the information age where masses of people can use them for their own spiritual transformations,their family,friends and so on.Awakening for the masses ,kind of thing.A world full of Jesus’ and Buddhas.
I think this thread boils down to the meaning of “initiation” .For some it could be quite ritualistic. For others it could just be that peice of info you so generously posted above.
(P.S I’m not sure if I have experienced shaktipat. I once atteneded a workshop by an indian pranayama teacher from Hyderabad, He went around touching everyone between the eye-brows/forehead while we did nadi shodhana. I did feel something after the session but whether this was because of the practices or some kind of transference i could not conclusively say.Looks like the jury is out there,for me , as i could not say i have any definitively *conclusive personal experience)
The case of the Freemasons comes to mind here as a good example of what I think you try to say. And before anybody out there think I have a problem with freemasonry, no I don’t.
[quote=core789;32819]Regarding this statement ,perhaps you might care to expand on it.
[I]And I think the credibility of a teacher/teaching is clearly an issue that has surfaced via so many posts here on the Forum over the past few weeks[/I][/quote]
I think it was CityMonk who started the thread on a guru wearing versace and gold and also some doing yoga seemingly just for money, which I think raises the question about the credibility of a teacher. It was also Sunyuting who was banned who raised the issue of two of his teachers as fake. Please note I use teacher as I think there are very few gurus left and they won’t be out there wearing versace and gold.
So, for me and the advise I usually give to my own yogis when they start to explore beyond my teachings and classes is to look at the lineage of the teacher and its teachings. Intorrogate your prospective teacher about under whom they studied, from whom did they receive their initiation, how long, where etc. It is your right and if your prospective teacher can’t answer then look further.
Let me give you an example, in my a city a 23 year old guy started his own school of yoga with a beautiful studio attached to it etc. at the beginning of this year. He started doing yoga when he was 19, at the age of 21 went over to India to do a yoga teachers course of 21 days, god knows where as he can hardly tell you who taught him. His teacher with whom he did yoga before he became a teacher is known in my city for her push marketing and that she is in the yoga business only for the money, she actually sues you if you can’t pay, she tells overweight people straight in their face that she has little time for them in her classes. Now if I compare this to my own yoga teacher who went over to India in 1963, was initiated by Swami Sivananda, studied in Canada under Yogi Khanna, Swami Mukthananda, Dr Mishra and back in SA under Swami Venkatesananda, her whole life spells out yoga and it disciplines and through her me and many others have received the blessings of this lineage/transmission of not just teachings, but of the spiritual energy, and this is very important. I hope I answer your question here.
For me it is about comparing, go out talk to teachers, 90% of the yoga teachers in my city will readily speak about their lineage and tell you under whom they studied etc, they are not shy about it and they usually have excellent track records in terms of their credibility. It is unfortunate that there are that 10%, but that is life, it is the balance, and some people might need that bad apple to actualy realise a karma from a past incarnation.
Core, beautiful insight, much appreciated and I agree with you here.
As I understood it from my teacher receiving shaktipat will not necessarily mean that you will immediately experience firworks etc. Sometimes the shaktipat will only change something so minute in you that you might not even notice it, sometimes you may receive the shaktipat, but it will changes nothing for you, it is perhaps stored in your consciousness for another lifetime.
Not everything that happens to you will necessarily always have a tangible and physical outcome, sometimes it is so subtle on another level that we might only become consciouss of it once we pass over into our next life when we shed this one.
In 2005 I received shaktipat from Sri Satya Sai Baba when I visited his ashram. The disappointment was huge because I “felt” nothing and I was ready to dismiss Swamiji as a charlatan. But I had a very patient teacher who explained to me what I ahve said above. Now, with the wonderful kindness of that teacher I call hindsight, I am amazed and in awe to actually see how much the shaktipat I received from Sri Satya changed my life on so many levels. They were small, but significant. Perhaps we needs patience as the perculator can only allow so much water to perculate through at any given time. 
This thread was very helpful, thank you
I was jsut about to start a thread about Kriya Yoga
And ask what it was
After reading this post (by the way, based on the post, I am going to buy this book and read it) I was intrigued so I did some web research and I then found myself spending some time reading through the Self-Realization Fellowship site and there I read about the home study and the meditation practices but I was left with the thought what exactly is Kriya Yoga?
Is it meditation?
Is it Yoga like you might find in say a Hatha class?
Is it both?
Or is it something else?
I must admit after all I have read though it is intriguing but for the record I have no intention of signing up.
But this entire thread helped clear things up for me, again thank you