The blind leading the blind?

Is anyone these days anything but?
The blind leading the blind.

This evening I have handled some mediation at work between sparring groups of contractors at the job site I am currently stationed. I sent out a - what someone kindly refers to as ‘peace loving hippy bull****’ email (that no one will read), where I told everyone that they were a team, working together for a common goal, and that there need not be any disharmony amongst us. That we are all capable of coming to work and making the choice to get along every morning. Some of us are blind, some of us are more blind, but that doesn’t mean anything.

As teachers of yoga or of information systems (my job), we know that someone is always going to be either better, or more qualified that another person, and BOTH sides are able to reach their hands out to engage the other. We can get along, we can support and teach each other (thereby raising the bar!) or we can just not do that. But just imagine how must better our day would be if we came online and posted feisty comments about how AWESOME EVERYONE IS, because they are.

Thank you and good night.

:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;28175] Like in that saying: The sage will even learn from the idiot, while the idiot won’t even learn from the sage. [/QUOTE]

THAT is the best thing I have heard all day.
I think I should probably recite it to the people I work with tomorrow when they all wake up and fail to read that email I sent out.

Hi David,

I will attempt to ration the gist of your many questions.

Yoga practice is expanding at a vigorous rate, and is the the fastest growing physical activity in the world. To service the ever-growing population turning to yoga, the ‘industry’ needs to get fresh blood out there teaching at a rate matching the expansion, or run the risk of depleting the existing teacher pool. So, 200 / 500 / 1000 hour programs are developed, and some include exotic locations and sweet drinks to lure and capitalize on potential trainees. The sharper thorns on the bush will get and memorize the yoga moves quickly and go on to build great studios.

Now, at what point does a teacher / trainee become truly yogic? That’s another question altogether.

There is definitely a lot of “the blind leading the blind” in the yoga world these days. As one who has practiced, studied and taught Yoga for many years, I’m dismayed by the number of “teachers” that are being cranked out these days by studios that make better money at that than they do by teaching classes. People are being trained by “teachers” who themselves have minimal training and experience ( I know of one where the main teacher trainer has only 200 hr training, less than 1 yr of teaching experience and no personal practice to speak of). I’m glad that a number of states have started regulating Yoga teacher training programs since, unfortunately, the the self-regulation supposedly being handled by Yoga Alliance has been, IMHO, a failure.

Not sure that there is a shortage of yoga teachers for the ever expanding -growing population,I know some wannabe teachers who wouldnt do one of the old school trainings because they are too demanding , the students are actually assessed and only allowed to teach following rigorous assesments and criteria,so better to go for an expensive training where everybody is given positive feedback and told how they are wonderful, be it a weekend or 200 hours,these courses are often run by people with little experience of yoga (ie less than about 15 years),they often claim some world renowned teachers as their teacher yet completely ignore the wishes of that teacher and go ahead and give teacher trainings to all comers as long as you have the dollars no problem,they can give you a certificate,just dont expect much follow up in the way of further trainings or keeping standards up or mentoring.Do the maths ,lets say around ?5000 for training and you can stay in a glorified straw hut (Air conditioned of course)on a tropical beach being served by peolple who work all the hours for a pittance . multiply that by 15 people and hey hey, youre talking big bucks .
These trainings are often given in third world locations where the price of a lesson can be a months wage for an unskilled worker.There is often no concept of the legality of running a business in another country, bribes are given or the law of the land doesnt apply to rich westerners with their eurodollars.Imagine an indian for example coming to usa or uk and setting up a business without the legal process being followed,they would be lucky to be allowed in the country.
Yoga teaching is a wonderful thing to be able to share but I fear the essence is being missed its not a lifestyle choice for people burnt out by being in the media/fashion/film/dance/celeb blah blah business so they can live in exotic locations with cheap food rent,be adored by fawning students in some kind of love in ,while they charge top prices for dodgy trainings,where everybody gets what they want regardless of suitability or standard.They often usually advertise themselves as having trained in the usual suspect schools ,when in fact they have attended a few asana lessons ,but decided to share there new style with us that has been adapted for the westerner,and is of course the “best type of yoga” oh and by the way they teach high profile clients and celebrities,am I supposed to be impressed or moved by that?
Of course im sure there are some wonderful trainings given by inspirational teacher /yogis Although the teacher who For me who has for me shown what I imagine to be yogic qualities , has never given a teacher training in over 40 years of intense practice.
It is of course wonderful that Yoga is being shared by many, to many , but lets not lose the true gifts in a rush of business and lack of humility.At the end of the day a certificate is just a piece of paper.
Peace love and joy

[QUOTE=vyigfu;28191]There is definitely a lot of “the blind leading the blind” in the yoga world these days.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure this is a fair statement. I’ve only been exposed to the yoga community and experience for a short time <5 years. But, I have met some young - 200 hourers - that are very good and dedicated to their practice and their teachings, continually growing themselves and passing knowledge on. And I have met some very experienced lifers (been to India several times, blah, blah, blah,) who sleepwalk through their classes. And a few in-between.

I agree that we at the stage where a systmatic process could be developed to ensure ‘hacks’ don’t take over. However, I do believe that people in general, regardless of their level of experience, can spot the hacks.

I have a question about these x-hours-teacher-trainings, maybe certified people can answer:

What is going on in these hours? Are you doing your own Yoga there, getting instructions for your own Asana practice?

Or are you for example an assistant to an already certified teacher and learn how to help other practitioners? Or do you learn theory? For example had I recently watched a video by Paul Grilley, Anatomy for Yoga, maybe some people know it, he lectures about individual skeletal setups and shows how different people are different and how a teacher has to support them accordingly. Is teacher training like that? Does it include Yogic theory, philosophy, chakra-theory and so on?

And is there some sort of exam, where one has to show they actually understood what they learned or are you getting certified just by having been there?

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;28194]I’m not sure this is a fair statement. I’ve only been exposed to the yoga community and experience for a short time <5 years. But, I have met some young - 200 hourers - that are very good and dedicated to their practice and their teachings, continually growing themselves and passing knowledge on. And I have met some very experienced lifers (been to India several times, blah, blah, blah,) who sleepwalk through their classes. And a few in-between.

I agree that we at the stage where a systmatic process could be developed to ensure ‘hacks’ don’t take over. However, I do believe that people in general, regardless of their level of experience, can spot the hacks.[/QUOTE]

Of course it’s true that in any field you have those who are new and great at it and those who’ve been around for years and are not so great. I’m not denying there are many good and dedicated teachers out there. I’m addressing the minimally trained “teachers” who are causing injury to unaware students. Unfortunately, the “hacks” may not be spotted before an injury occurs. I’ve made a good living the last few years helping people injured in yoga classes they took from untrained teachers and the numbers of those injuries have increased sharply with the rise in popularity of yoga among the mainstream and the concurrent rise in minimally trained teachers.

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;28197]I have a question about these x-hours-teacher-trainings, maybe certified people can answer:

What is going on in these hours? Are you doing your own Yoga there, getting instructions for your own Asana practice?

Or are you for example an assistant to an already certified teacher and learn how to help other practitioners? Or do you learn theory? For example had I recently watched a video by Paul Grilley, Anatomy for Yoga, maybe some people know it, he lectures about individual skeletal setups and shows how different people are different and how a teacher has to support them accordingly. Is teacher training like that? Does it include Yogic theory, philosophy, chakra-theory and so on?

And is there some sort of exam, where one has to show they actually understood what they learned or are you getting certified just by having been there?[/QUOTE]

Yes to all of the above. There is no standard here in the US, other than that espoused by Yoga Alliance. Even then, they have no follow-up. They are simply a registration organization. There’s weekend certification programs to multi-year programs and everything in between.

As you know David, I’ve often outlined the difference or gap between being trained to practice yoga and being trained to teach yoga. This is similar for other professions. There are some brilliant math students who cannot, for the life of them, convey their brilliance to others. Likewise the skills required to have one’s own yoga practice are not the same as those required to teach yoga to others.

[B]When Are They Ready[/B]
When the student of yoga is able to comprehend that yoga is vast, when they are able to fathom that the practice is not exercise, when they “get” that teaching this thing must have purpose beyond the body, they may be ripening.

When they are taught to teach, understand how to speak to others, modulate their voice, commit to continuing their study, embody the harmony of living in integrity, AND understand the teachings themselves are NOT about them (ego) then they may be ready.

We have many people wearing the label of “yoga teacher”. Some of those people have 22 hours of “teacher training”. This is obviously ridiculous. There’s no point in looking deeply into the list of a 20-hour trainee as that says enough. However when the trainee has more than 200 hours of training we must look at a longer list of requisites. I believe a 200-hour training is the bare minimum. It is the start. But even the week of my certification (after 2 years and 2,000) Aadil said to me “Two years does not a master make”.

[B]Consider Being a Teacher[/B]
Some deeply consider their path while others do not. As a teacher my job is to hold the nature of yoga, preserve it’s authenticity and lineage while at the same instance looking to see how it may grow to serve humanity - not how it may grow to serve my own ego, needs, cravings, tastes or desires.

That must be balanced with the context in which we live. I bring this up because class fees were broached earlier. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a teacher sharing something sacred with a student and receiving compensation or payment for that. Classically, the student took complete care of the teacher in exchange for the teaching. So when students are willing to come to the teacher’s house, provide food, clean, and educate children, then there will not be any fee.

While it may be the dharma of some to donate their time or teach for free or have a sliding scale or a donation-based class it is not every teacher’s dharma. Further, it is a bit ignorant to presume that a student who knows nothing about yoga or the way(s) it is imparted could possibly ascertain it’s worth especially in the early years of their practice. Keeping a yoga studio open may serve many. Closing one serves almost no one.

[B]What Constitutes a Training[/B]
In my particular 2,000 teacher training (x-hours) we had 4-hour long anatomy and physiology classes, lectures on the nature and application of philosophy, instruction in our own asana practice, instruction in reading poetry, instruction in teaching postures, pranayama, restorative, meditation, therapeutics, research papers on other yoga practices and other healing modalities, book reports, self-evaluations…etcetera…

Sorry to hear you do not see sunshine on a cloudy day on your island.

In my world the truth is constant and that truth is love.

If I am not mistaken we are all students for life learning how to be kind and not violent with thoughts, words, or actions. To be caring and not selfish or greedy. To have positive pure energy and appreciation of where we are in the now. And to have self control, devotion and awareness of how we direct our inner light.

Namaste my brother.

[quote=suryadaya;28183]Is anyone these days anything but?
The blind leading the blind.[/quote]
That’s a good question and may indeed be the case. I don’t know.

I agree that everyone is awesome. However, many of those awesome people partake in actions that suck. John Q. Banker is no doubt awesome but if he is pillaging, then his actions suck. Jane P Yoga Teacher is surely an awesome person but if she is teaching asana in a manner that causes injury in her students, then her actions are lacking.

How many of us who are certified teachers are honest with ourselves? I remember being told a story about a zen master who was giving a speech and felt nervous. He realized then that he was not fit to lead his students. He went back to being a student and eight years later returned ready to teach.

Me? Personally? You won’t see me teaching much if any asana and let me tell you, my ego hates when I admit that. I’m not ready. I don’t have a strong enough understanding/experience/knowledge/wisdom of many areas that, in my opinion, are necessary for me to provide the student with what they need when it comes to asana.

If someone wants to learn to play again or heal traumas or meditate or laugh, I can most definitely share my yoga.

We live in a world where people are hurting. Big time. They’re hurting physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. And I worry that some of us are hurting them more because we can’t be honest with ourselves. As someone who HAS been injured and traumatized because of people who lacked training/integrity/honesty or whatever, I don’t want others to experience what I have.

Me too as that would be a cool trick! :slight_smile: Luckily I love the rain so it’s all good. :cool:

Well said :slight_smile:

Namaste and aloha.

[QUOTE=LivingDreams;28206]Sorry to hear you do not see sunshine on a cloudy day on your island.

In my world the truth is constant and that truth is love.

If I am not mistaken we are all students for life learning how to be kind and not violent with thoughts, words, or actions. To be caring and not selfish or greedy. To have positive pure energy and appreciation of where we are in the now. And to have self control, devotion and awareness of how we direct our inner light.

Namaste my brother.[/QUOTE]

<3
This is great.

Hi InnerAthlete, thanks for the reply.

posted by Quetzalcoatl
A good sign for integrity is if it’s visible that they aren’t in it for the money, even though they live from teaching. Many websites have shops and “buy this book” and their smart pricing terms up front: That’s ok for a gym, not for a Yoga-studio. An excellent sign is, when they offer classes on a donation base. I know they must live and I want to pay, that’s not the point, but they should not do their thing to maximize profit and in case someone really hasn’t got the money, still accept them as a student. I guess this is the reason, why many people (including myself) aren’t actually hot for Bikram.

posted by InnerAthlete

Consider Being a Teacher
Some deeply consider their path while others do not. As a teacher my job is to hold the nature of yoga, preserve it’s authenticity and lineage while at the same instance looking to see how it may grow to serve humanity - not how it may grow to serve my own ego, needs, cravings, tastes or desires.

That must be balanced with the context in which we live. I bring this up because class fees were broached earlier. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a teacher sharing something sacred with a student and receiving compensation or payment for that. Classically, the student took complete care of the teacher in exchange for the teaching. So when students are willing to come to the teacher’s house, provide food, clean, and educate children, then there will not be any fee.

While it may be the dharma of some to donate their time or teach for free or have a sliding scale or a donation-based class it is not every teacher’s dharma. Further, it is a bit ignorant to presume that a student who knows nothing about yoga or the way(s) it is imparted could possibly ascertain it’s worth especially in the early years of their practice. Keeping a yoga studio open may serve many. Closing one serves almost no one.
I agree with most of what you say; I’m not sure about the Dharma-thing, if you care to, please explain. Some people don’t have the choice to do donation-based-Yoga-classes…?

Outside that: Sure it’s not “wrong” to pay for being tought Yoga. But it is not right as well. It’s a necessity, because the vessels of such teachings require food, clothing and a place to sleep and if they had to work in the coalmines to gain the money for all that, they could not teach Yoga and could not make the world a better place. Very true, never even remotely questioned by me.

What they teach, that sacred knowledge, is a gift, even if they paid for a training or paid their Guru. Whatever money or duty or stuff they gave away to acquire that knowledge: It’s far from being representative of the worth of such knowledge. Such knowledge is priceless.

What I’m trying to say (English isn’t my first language, btw) is, that it says much about a teachers integrity if they are willing to teach people without the fee, particularly people who cannot afford it. It requires some courage too to go such a path, because we’re living in messed up times ever since the consciousness has been invented. Some students might take advantage of such courage and pay little or nothing even though they could. But since it’s Yoga and not weightlifting, I doubt that would be much of a problem. Wholehearted students will willingly pay and most of the few who intentionally rip off a teacher will only attend to a class a handful of times and then give it up again. I don’t think I’m naive here, Yoga changes people and most students would be ashamed of such undignified behaviour. On the contrary, many students would do their best to help a teacher to keep up their good work and pay even more than what’s the average fee. I know I would.

Take yourself: You’re giving away lot’s of knowledge in this forum on a daily base. That costs you time. Some other teacher might not do such things, because they’re not so good with computers or this way of communication. Why should they not invest the time you invest here into teaching some students for free? Dharma? Hm… :wink:

What Constitutes a Training
In my particular 2,000 teacher training (x-hours) we had 4-hour long anatomy and physiology classes, lectures on the nature and application of philosophy, instruction in our own asana practice, instruction in reading poetry, instruction in teaching postures, pranayama, restorative, meditation, therapeutics, research papers on other yoga practices and other healing modalities, book reports, self-evaluations…etcetera…
Thanks for telling. 2000 hours, I’d say that’s the least a good teacher should have, not 200. 200 is nothing if you asked me. I read a few schedules on 200- and 500-hours teacher training, like here:

http://www.yogaalliance.org/Standards.html

and I kinda got the impression that what’s tought there should actually be stuff any person truly into Yoga should have long learned before they even start a teacher training. I already have more x-hours in Anatomy and Physiology, Philosophy/Ethics/Lifestyle. Only via books and videos and forums and discussions with insightful friends in real life, but I doubt that’s necessarily less profound than personal instruction. Such certificates are more or less only a minimal insurance for a student. If a teacher has such a certificate, the student can assume they have at least that bit of knowledge. Not impressive.

Again: I’m not saying a certificate means nothing. It means something and the meaning is related to the number of hours too. But is it more than a vague start to get a remote idea of the quality of a teacher? I don’t think so and that’s why to me, this is none of those variables David asked about. Others, obviously, may have a different point of view on this.

I wanted to share something that struck a deep place in me, and that I took on as practice early in my training as a Yoga therapist. It is from the Structural Yoga Therapy program manual, that my principal teacher, Mukunda Stiles, used with my class.[I]Structural Yoga Therapy is learning how to see the world through the Yogi’s eyes, or darshan (the way of seeing). First and foremost, the consideration for me [Mukunda] is to convey the experience of Classical Yoga, as a living breathing presence enlivened by prana Shakti. This means that the importance of yoga therapy, asana, philosophy and the various subjects of Yoga discipline are all secondary. For this to occur, the Yoga student must always remain a student of life. It is important to learn how to accept and practice integrity of yamas and niyamas as a lifestyle. [B]Without this, the community at large will not accept certification even if one has received it from a respected teacher.[/B][/I]
[I]
The process of being a Yoga Therapist begins with your commitment to personal growth or in Sanskrit, sadhana. The first principle in Yoga is nonviolence or ahimsa as cited in Yoga Sutras II, 33-35. The definition of nonviolence is the longest sutra (II, 34) of the text; in summary it says, “negative thoughts and emotions are violent.”[/I]
[I]
The word sadhana means literally “moving towards the Truth” or the “means to liberation”. Attaining the Truth is a glimpse of liberation. Truth or satya is the second of the yogic code of ethics, the yamas. Satya—the words one uses have the force of their life energy. When someone makes a commitment to class and then doesn’t come or doesn’t pay – where is the integrity in this action? With sufficient integrity of lifestyle, the life energy of prana will manifest the truth of their words. Yoga
Sutras II, 36. [/I]

[LEFT]It is my experience that you are a teacher when others ask it from you, the same as a therapist.

Our individual responsibility in what we offer begins with a personal and deep commitment to [I]satya[/I] or truthfulness and how suitably we are matched, student to teacher, client to therapist, based in truth.

It is always best practice to offer what you can honestly, and to have confidence that those who are looking for you and your skill set will find you. Just make yourself ready.

If your training is 10 beautiful days in Tulum, and your only vinyasa is lifting a margarita to your mouth and swallowing, then offer this is to the world with confidence. Truly, don’t be afraid, as there are certainly others who are looking for you, and who can even benefit from learning from you. Just keep your integrity and honor the truth of your personal practice and offerings–whatever they may be. This helps navigate the blindness of it all and allows for the student to grow, even past you as their teacher, and to take on other teachers who can offer the next step.

I have found it to be a real privilege to be able to recommend that my clients go to see my own teacher after I’ve worked with them for some time. My ideal is that my students and clients grow and heal and move forward in life, that they do not become depended on me. My hope is that they grow to need more than what I can offer them as a therapist–this is truly excellent place to find yourself.

*nichole
[/LEFT]

That was beautiful Nichole, thank you. Goosebumps ahoy :slight_smile:

How many of us DO practice satya when we are sought out and found? If my certification consisted of margarita asana, am I going to be honest when that student asks me how to deal with this tension in my psoas and I have to google what a psoas is? Maybe I’m wrong, but I feel that most aren’t honest and integral during such an encounter. And that’s where I have a huge issue with the current state of yoga in the USA.

Now, I don’t necessarily fault the teachers as they’ve been taught that they’re now yoga teachers and that they’re ready to teach when someone asks them to. God knows it took me awhile to be honest with myself and I’m no doubt still bullshitting myself on many levels. I think that the teacher’s teachers, the “masters” must be looked at and held accountable for certifying people that have no business being certified.

I remember during my first teacher training graduation. I forget the exact words but our teacher said we’re all ready to teach. And as I looked around the room after having spent 200+ hours with these people I knew in my heart that was not true.

What if MD’s all of a sudden were being certified after two years of medical school instead of four? And then another school opens up and certifies them after one year. Then a school opens up where they can get certified after just three weeks at a resort in Bali. We’d be up in arms. Why should yoga be different? God knows that the people coming to us are in extreme need of healing. And most of us aren’t honest enough with ourselves and the students to provide them proper care. Yes, you are a teacher when someone asks you. But the lesson should often be one of honesty, integrity and humbleness. If someone asks me what year Christoper Columbus arrived in America I’m a teacher at that moment. But if I say 1993 then I have failed in my duties.

Doctors take an oath to first do no harm. Yogis have ahimsa.

Both groups are violating these big time.

And that needs to change.

I was off shoveling rocks a few minutes ago (quite a meditative task and it’s amazing how many asana-esque moves you can work into the motion) when I think it clicked what you mean. While my initial statement was obviously (hopefully) a joke, I do thank you, it is appreciated. :slight_smile:

Oh Nichole, how beautiful. Thank you for that. I am of a similar mindset.

While I would never presume to “teach” asana, I feel well qualified to share my own personal journey and to teach through this. I am often asked why I made this choice or that, and in those moments I feel blessed to share.

David, there are all too many yoga “teachers” who focus only on the physicality of yoga and not on the rest of yoga.

Indeed. That’s why, with your current educational background, I look forward to you teaching a lot of yoga as well. I think you’ll be able to help a tremendous amount of people heal on multiple levels.

After many years of observing me doing yoga and living it as well, my spaniel, Matilda, is now my best teacher as nobody can do downward facing dog as she can! So even dogs are yoga teachers these days. :slight_smile: