The Clash of Civilisations: Indian vs Western

Spirituality Religion
#81

In the above I linked a speech by Friedman. There Friedman says something interesting: “The future is not just the extapolation of the past” If we extrapolate from our material civilisation at present into the future there is no way that we will develop a spiritual civilisation, because the paradigm we are working within is material. It will take nothing short of completely changing over to a new paradigm if we want a spiritual civilisation.

A material civilisation will not one day just evolve magically into a spiritual civilisation because a material civilisation has a narrow view of life and reality. It reduces everything to material, including life. On the other hand, a spiritual civilisation has a broader view and it also has a place for the material as long as it in service of the spiritual.

If one takes a material perspective of life, then one cannot become spiritual, because the material perspective is too limited to accomodate it. For example, suppose somebody would like to be a good capitalist and help the poor, they would find the aims of virtue and capitalism irreconcilabe. To survive as a capitalist they would need to exploit somebody to generate profit. They they would have to compete with other capitalists in order to remain in business and this would mean cutting wages of their workers and replacing them with machines. In order to maintain their competitiveness they would have to plunder the resources of the planet.

The future of a material civilisation is not a spiritual utopia where everybody has material abundance, because a material civilisation is based on competition between individuals and groups trying to gain more and more power. Eventually, one of these individuals and groups gains all the power and everybody else becomes their subject. Indeed, this is what has been going on for the last 100 years. Capital and power has been falling into fewer and fewer hands and today we have a situation where only a few companies have more power than entire countries put together. Thus our future is a corporate world where corportations dictate our future and corporations value only profit, productivity and effiency. If we did follow this trajectory all of society and its citizens would become like a machine. If we allow this happen without let or hinderance, it will become increasingly more difficult to change our ways.

The world we would be living in if we continued with our Western ways would be bleak. There would be no individuality or private life, everything would be monitored. Individuals would be rated in terms of their capacity for work and effiency(Actually, proposals for such ratings have already been made by WHO) There would be extreme suffering, poverty, violence and immorality as such a civilisation would always have an underclass, because of the uneven distribution of wealth in society. The future would be very much like Orwell and others like him envisioned. It would be spiritually retarded.

Take note in the Kaku video linked by High wolf Kaku points out our type 1 institutions: English is a type 1 language; football is a type 1 sport; MTV is type 1 entertainment, the internet/facebook/twitter are type 1 communication systems. This is disturbing. It means the language of our future is not a spiritual and cognitive language like Sanskrit, it is a commercial language. It means the sports of our future are not intellectual like chess, they are violent and mindless sports like football. The future of our entertainment is not high art, poetry and music, but loud, erratic, artless, jarring noise like MTV. The future of communication is not the all humankind uniting to better each other and look after each other, but one where eveybody becomes alienated from another and lives in virtual reality.

In other words we are letting our world go into the pitts if we continue the way of Western civilisation. The future of this planet will be one of extreme suffering, corruption, immorality, fragmentation and stupidity. We can already see it in the making.

But this can be stopped if we allow the Indian way to prevail. Every other culture on this planet has been swallowed up by the West: Africa, Americas, South East Asia(Japan, China, Korea, Thiland) All other ancient cultures are dead Greek, Egyptian, Aztec. Indian civiliation remains the only culture on this planet that is still alive and that can challenge the West. India is our last beacon of hope to not allow an Orwellian future to take place. It is our last hope to see a spiritual revolution on this planet.

Therefore arise warriors of dharma! Make sure that the future humanity lives in a dharmic world and not the mechnical Western world.

#82

Ironically India continues conversion towards western ideology while the increasing populace of westerners attempt to alleviate suffering through inner peace/happiness…shedding ignorance of current religious, social and political rigidness. Without inner awareness and spiritual exploration none will recognize the importance of the natural law of Dharma.

Dharma will never be achieved, no matter how many people campaign or crusade for it, without inner peace, outer peace and Dharma is impossible.

#83

Nicely said Ray.

#84

Ray, India of today is not dharmic India. India of today is ruled by Western ideology because it came under the occupation of the British who abolished the traditional education system of India and traditional knowledge systems and replaced it with English education in order to create a generation of Indians who were British in thought, taste and values and who would dominate the non-English speaking generation. They were suppose to be middle men. They are the ones in India today who are westernized and they comprise the middle and upper class simply because they have an English education. They are in positions of power. Yet, they comprise only 30% of the population of India, 70% are non-English speaking and still adhere to their traditional way of life - however they have no opportunities because they do not speak English and do not get adequate education and support from the government or protection.

This is the only reason why the state of India is Westernized. Most Indians, who live in rural India are not Westernized. This is why Hinduism survives in the rural population and why all the ashrams are found in rural places. Therefore, when you say India is moving to Western ideology, you are only talking about the elite English speaking 30%.

You likewise exaggerate the rising spiritual Westerners. I started a thread on this matter myself, “Is the West becoming more spiritual” The answer is yes, but the spiritual community is a small percentage of about 50 million people in America, about 16% of the population. In these 50 million people only 20-30 million practice Yoga regularly, hence 6%
In these 6% even fewer practice full spiritual Yoga. In other words we can safely say only 5% of Americans are genuinely trying to live spiritual lives.

So you are effectively saying India is becoming Western when only 30% are Western
And you are saying the West is becoming spiritual when only 5% are genuinely spiritual.

If we still go by sheer numbers India has a larger spiritual community of yogis, sadhus etc than the West. The attendence of the Kumb Mela, the original and biggest spiritual gathering in the world alone reaches 70 million. The highest number of ashrams and gurus you will find in India.

India, despite now being ruled by Western ideology, is still the spiritual capital of the world. The West would not even have its 5-16% if it was not for the Hindu gurus coming to the West.

#85

Without inner awareness and spiritual exploration none will recognize the importance of the natural law of Dharma.

Dharma will never be achieved, no matter how many people campaign or crusade for it, without inner peace, outer peace and Dharma is impossible.

I agree.

I think you will find if you read what I am writing more closely this is what I said. We have to raise our spirituality in order for our future to be harmonious and in balance with our technology.

This is what dharma is about: a spiritual-centered civilisation. In a spiritual civilisation there is nothing which is not spiritual: language is spiritual, education is spiritual, economics is spiritual, science is spiritual, art is spiritual, health is spiritual. The Vedic religion provides this:

A spiritual language: Sanskrit
A spiritual education system: Yoga
A spiritual economic system: varna-ashrama dharma
A spiritual scientific system: Darsanas
A spiritual art system: Natya
A spirital health system: Ayurveda
A spiritual philosophy: Vedanta

The Vedic religion has the answers to how we can spiritualize this world and already fully developed systems we can build upon. The great wisdom of the sages of India is the solution to the world today. Yoga practice is just a part of it, everything from India Ayurveda, Vedanta, Natya, Sanskrit, varna-ashrama is vastly superior to what we have in the West. This is why it is time for the Vedic religion to spread everywhere and take us out of the pitt the West has got us in.

#86

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;61245]
A spiritual language: Sanskrit
A spiritual education system such: Yoga
A spiritual economic system such: varna-ashrama dharma
A spiritual scientific system: Darsanas
A spiritual art system: Natya
A spirital health system: Ayurveda
A spiritual philosophy: Vedanta

The Vedic religion has the answers to how we can spiritualize this world and already fully developed systems we can build upon. The great wisdom of the sages of India is the solution to the world today. Yoga practice is just a part of it, everything from India Ayurveda, Vedanta, Natya, Sanskrit, varna-ashrama is vastly superior to what we have in the West. This is why it is time for the Vedic religion to spread everywhere and take us out of the pitt the West has got us in.[/QUOTE]

I like the idea of seeing Yoga as an education alternative. Not just because it encourages for a more focused attention-span, but the philosophy of Yoga itself seems quite pedagogical.

#87

Indeed, Yoga as an education system is fundamental. Yoga deals not with knowledge-education but rather refining the instruments of knowledge: body, senses, intellect and attention. In this way the child’s faculties improve aiding the acquision of knowledge.

It is absurd in the first place why Yoga is not compulsory in the education system. It has more than been proven to improve cognitive ability, attention-span and general health and well being. It should be started from preschool itself.

I am going to put my cynic hat on how and tell you why Yoga is not compulsory in the education system: It is because the education system wants to dumb people down not enlighten them. All the more reason why Western culture needs to go.

#88

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;61225]Ironically India continues conversion towards western ideology while the increasing populace of westerners attempt to alleviate suffering through inner peace/happiness…shedding ignorance of current religious, social and political rigidness. Without inner awareness and spiritual exploration none will recognize the importance of the natural law of Dharma.

Dharma will never be achieved, no matter how many people campaign or crusade for it, without inner peace, outer peace and Dharma is impossible.[/QUOTE]

I am assuming that you have a stereotypical knowledge of India, like most Westerners.

India is still very spiritual/philosophical/religious (mostly religious and dogmatically so, but this is declining as the cultural oppression of Hindus by Christians, Muslims, and CP, is increasingly pissing off Indians and causing them to rediscover their culture) despite what your bigoted media tells you.

However, the Western world largely remains as bigoted, racist, and ignorant as ever. Every day I see “wise” Westerners touting clich?d philosophical and spiritual garbage while taking a steaming dump on China’s communism and India’s poverty and “miserable religion”. I’m calling shots on the time when Westerners will say they “invented” Yoga.

Nonsense. Dharma can be achieved either way, depending on the circumstances. In the Age of Kali, especially in our modern era, inner peace is sometimes gained when the society can afford for its constituents to do so; Westerners are turning towards “peace” because they are at the top of the world and don’t have to worry about nagging problems such as neighboring belligerent nations, poverty, discrimination, ethnic violence, and so on (all of which the Western world itself played a part in creating).

They are also doing this because we cow-piss drinking, dirt-poor monkeys got it in our heads to teach you guys our ways and make yourselves aware about the futility of a consumerist, materialistic, and hedonistic culture.

And look what has happened; you have Westerners practicing “Yoga” while saying dancing is banned in India; you have “enlightened” people saying Yoga predated Hinduism.

Jeez, no wonder our ancestors considered these guys mlecchas.

If only more Westerners were like High Wolf…

#89

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;61253]Indeed, Yoga as an education system is fundamental. Yoga deals not with knowledge-education but rather refining the instruments of knowledge: body, senses, intellect and attention. In this way the child’s faculties improve aiding the acquision of knowledge.

It is absurd in the first place why Yoga is not compulsory in the education system. It has more than been proven to improve cognitive ability, attention-span and general health and well being. It should be started from preschool itself.

I am going to put my cynic hat on how and tell you why Yoga is not compulsory in the education system: It is because the education system wants to dumb people down not enlighten them. All the more reason why Western culture needs to go.[/QUOTE]

Well, because Western education system is against natural development of a child. Kids want to climb trees, run and run, and play. They are very receptive to nature’s call. But you put math, science and history before kids get to know about their own bodies. Parents are preparing them as race horses, and many beautiful things like contact with animals are seen as a passing stage during childhood. Since animals have no relevance to global economic competition.

I agree that Western industrial culture is malignant insofar as its education system resembles a cyroprison, where they freeze childen’s innocence and inquisitive nature, and stuff their minds with horseshits. Yet the system insinuates its beliefs in such a way, when kids grow up, they become ready to defend this system, ready to strike any alternative to it. In other words, the first colonialism begins within the mind.

But as I said before, no one could stop this, It is too late now. Industrial culture has fortified its system so well that even every now and again, fissures on its walls are mended. And the paradox is, technology does not decrease one’s workload; conversely, it increases it at an exponential rate. There is no freedom coming from technology.

Go out there and ask why there is so much cancer in this industrial society. Nobody is courageous enought to admit that it is there because of the pace of its lifestyle, overload of its work ethics, de-spiritulisation of its social life, and so on. Surely, throw some human rights, labour unions, footbal games, and such to keep people uninquisitive. The whole society is like Pavlov’s dog, controlled with a reward mechanism. Fire and forget!

We agree that industrialism is a culture of delusions. And the countries that take America’s and China’s crap are even more deluded. If you were to asses people’s psychological health on a grand scale, you’d probably conclude that industrial society is a one big insane asylum.

So for me, it is more of Industrialism than of West. There is no East-West left in this world. There is industrialism and nothing more…

#90

Surya Deva, I know you explained yourself better in regards to your claim of the imagination, but I already typed it, so what the hell… :slight_smile:

Since Jung is my current object of study, I’m basing myself mostly in his quotes.

“All the works of man have their origin in creative fantasy. What right have we then to depreciate imagination?”

“The creation of something new is not accomplished by the intellect but by the play instinct acting from inner necessity. The creative mind plays with the objects it loves.”

"Without this playing with fantasy no creative work has ever yet come to birth. The debt we owe to the play of the imagination is incalculable.

As an artist in formation, I should disagree with this invalidation of imagination.

It is through imagination, through fantasy, that we are able to manifest the deep contents of the unconscious.

Original unconscious desire > Feeling/Imagination that brings it to the conscious mind > Rational process to deal with it.

Claiming the process only involves rationality or the physical world is only partially true.

“We should not pretend to understand the world only by the intellect; we apprehend it just as much by feeling. Therefore, the judgment of the intellect is, at best, only the half of truth, and must, if it be honest, also come to an understanding of its inadequacy.”

“The great decisions of human life have as a rule far more to do with the instincts and other mysterious unconscious factors than with conscious will and well-meaning reasonableness.”

Several scientists had breakthroughs during altered states of conscious, or during sleep that communicated important messages. If imagination or the irrational unconscious had no connection to physical reality this would never be possible.

Of course science needs to impose a forceful separation in order to examine things, but well, I personally have a hard time with an over-rational scientific mindset.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;59470]You are saying the absolute obvious here. Yes, they exist only in the imagination. We are talking about reality here. In my imagination I am Aishwariya Rai’s husband(Bollywood actress, considered the most beautiful woman in the world) :D[/QUOTE]

I’d say you need serious Freudian therapy! :lol:

#91

I’d say you need serious Freudian therapy!

:stuck_out_tongue:

Don’t worry I don’t really think of myself as Aishwarayas husband! I just have fantasies where I am walking about Juhu beach in Mumbai and she spots me, and thinks “Hey handsome” Then takes me home while Abhishek is shooting in Switzerland dancing around a tree with Priyanka Chopra, and gets frisky… :smiley:

Still kidding :stuck_out_tongue:

It depends on what you mean by imagination. I think we mean different things: When I say imagination I mean what Patanjali calls vikapa, world-knowledge which has no correspondence in reality. Like hare with horns, fire breathing dragons, square circles and talking trees. These are useless thoughts and get us nowhere. I focus on what is real and factual like the pramanas: empirical facts, inference draws from empirical facts and peer reviewed data of empirical facts.

I think what you are referring to is what I call intuition. This is when information comes directly from your higher self and not from any pramana. I agree this knowledge is superior.
However, be careful not to mistake what I call the imagination with the intuition. 99% of new agers do that.

#92

I just started reading this thread so please forgive me for quoting such old posts.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;58694]Western culture is the cause of the destruction of this planet and humanity. The solution is to get rid of it.[/QUOTE]
I agree that Western ways are destroying this planet. However, I have to wonder if it’s just because we figured out how to, first, and it’s more an issue of man’s inherent greed, fear, and other shortcomings.

The ONLY way to not destroy the planet is to live [B]sustainably[/B]. Do you feel that rising powers such as India, China, etc are going to operate sustainably? Or has the western unsustainable ways corrupted them to the point that they, too, need to be destroyed and rebuilt?

#93

[QUOTE=David;61401]I just started reading this thread so please forgive me for quoting such old posts.

I agree that Western ways are destroying this planet. However, I have to wonder if it’s just because we figured out how to, first, and it’s more an issue of man’s inherent greed, fear, and other shortcomings.

The ONLY way to not destroy the planet is to live [B]sustainably[/B]. Do you feel that rising powers such as India, China, etc are going to operate sustainably? Or has the western unsustainable ways corrupted them to the point that they, too, need to be destroyed and rebuilt?[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by “figured out first?”

Unfortunately, yes…all the civilizations and cultures in this world must return to their roots…

#94

"My position is this: I am not a relativist. I do think one culture is more superior than another culture and one religion is superior to another. I honestly have no problem with this and before the postmodern age nobody else did as well. Now we are are all expected to simply assume cultural, ethical, epistemological and moral relativism and be politically correct by prefacing everything with a “in my opinion” - there is no absolute truth or no essentials - it is all just subjective and socially constructed - blah blah. …Relativism is an absolute farce. Nobody can ever trully be relative, everybody has to form a viewpoint in life. Even relativism is a viewpoint. Can you be relative about relativism "

Suryadeva, I am not a relativist either. However, having travelled the globe I know that there is good and bad in every culture. The good/bad in one culture is not relative to the good/bad in another. In other words - the areas of weakness in my culture may be areas of strength in your’s and vice versa.

Usually a culture’s initial strengths end up creating the very weaknesses that will be the “undoing” of that culture.

I’ve seen this everywhere - from East to West.

#95

[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;62185]"My position is this: [B]I am not a relativist. I do think one culture is more superior than another culture and one religion is superior to another. [/B]I honestly have no problem with this…[/QUOTE]

So it must be easy for you to accept that western culture is life-negating (trashy) and Eastern culture is far superior, right? :wink:

Same thing with religion(s). So you accept that Hinduism is far superior to the abrahamic cults? :grin:

#96

TatTvamAsi, if you read above you will see that that qoute belongs to SuryaDeva. I was quoting him.

I then went on to say that I am also not a cultural relativist.

When you travel the globe it becomes obvious that not all cultures and traditions are “equal” or shall we say - equally valuable.

What also becomes obvious is that not all cultures are composed of only all good or all bad, all progressive or all backward elements.

Within each and every culture you get the full spectrum of human behaviour in all of its glory, and in all of its shame.

I am not an “Abrahamist” for a reason. The Abrahamic faiths are lacking in philosophical and metaphysical depth. Hinduism, has the leg up on that one. That is obvious if one does an objective comparison between Abrahamic faiths and South Asian wisdom traditions/schools of thought.

However if somebody wants to practice Islam, Judaism, or Christianity I have no problem with that. I respect their right to do so.

What religion somebody practices is of absolutely no concern to me at all.