The Indus Valley Civilization

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#12

Pawel, I prefaced those points by the following:

Another point I want to add to this discussion is the implications of what OIT would do to history as we know it today, and why it is these implications which lead to staunch opposition against it.

I have no wish to undermine other religions, but I am showing the implications of what would happen if OIT becomes accepted. It will become clear knowledge that Hinduism and Indian civilisation is the cradle of civilisation on this planet, obviousy this will lead to it gaining huge credibility. This has already happened in muslim dominated Indonesia, who have now become aware of their Hindu history and are reconverting back to Hinduism.

I have met several historically aware pagans who have converted back to Hinduism. When Christians become aware that Jesus was a yogi, they will look back at Hinduism as the mother of their religion.

It is a natural and logical consequence of the implications of what OIT would do. It is a radical revision of history as we know it. I mean come on look at world spirituality today, most of it is Hinduism or Buddhism(reformed Hinduism) Isn’t it clear then that Hinduism is taking over. It is a peaceful takeover as well. Christian churches themselves are embracing Yoga. In fact, something Swami Vivekananda once said, what Hinduism will ultimately do is make Christians better Christians; Muslims better Muslims and Jews better Jews.

Hinduism isn’t really a religion. It is a spiritual science. It is can be used by anybody. Just as physical sciences can be used by anybody. Whether you choose to read the Gita, Upanishads etc is your choice. In the end it is either your loss or gain.

#13

It’s a good point.You don’t really hear about courses in Vedic Civilisation say in western universities.There is indeed a lot we ,speaking for Westerners,probably owe to early ‘great’ civilisations other than those of the Greeks & Romans and indeed those that pre-date those.Sometimes perhaps we prefer to keep our heads buried in the sand .

There was an academic,he might have been black, that (see ‘Black Athena’) said ancient egyptians were actually black.But of course some folk don’t always like to hear this.

A very well-informed & learned thread.Appreciate all contributions.I am definitely learning a lot.

Perhaps the Hindus are superior, after all.:wink:

Surya Deva,
I am definitely interested in this idea that Hinduism is not really a religion in the conventional sense but does , at least, contain spiritual science and technology. I think that is pretty fascinating and right up my street.It’s possibly not the first kind of articulation of it i’ve heard. I actually like this idea. I think you’re onto something even if it’s been stated by others. You know that people i think possibly love the security that organised relgion provides, not to denigrate relgion but the divine is a personal thing i think, yoga teaches us that, and the greatest scirpture can be found within us all.

#14

I have a very good Greek friend who is an intellectual. He admits to me himself that ancient Greek culture was based on Hinduism. He tells me has done a lot of research on this and he was amazed to find out how similar they were, how eary Greek history is full of praise for Hindus, and how they share similar gods and legends, and how the Greeks had Indian gurus living in Greece teaching the Greeks. In fact some early Greek philosophers were clearly Hindu themselves, such as Pythagoras. There is a very good book on this subject written by a French intellectual, “Pythagoras in India” It is also very clear Socrates and Plato were yogis. Many Greek historians talk about how much they learned from the Hindus.

A lot of this is not taught in the Western education system and only the reason for this is Western pride. This is what is really unhealthy pride. They do not want to admit that an Eastern civilisation is the source of their civilisation, in fact of much of civilisation. I find this rather sad.

#15

Surya Deva,
I am definitely interested in this idea that Hinduism is not really a religion in the conventional sense but does , at least, contain spiritual science and technology. I think that is pretty fascinating and right up my street.It’s possibly not the first kind of articulation of it i’ve heard. I actually like this idea. I think you’re onto something even if it’s been stated by others. You know that people i think possibly love the security that organised relgion provides, not to denigrate relgion but the divine is a personal thing i think, yoga teaches us that, and the greatest scirpture can be found within us all.

Hinduism was never an organized religion in the entire history of Indian civilisation until the British gave the term to the cuture, philosophy and sciences that Indian civilisation practiced. It would be like giving a term that groups together Western cuture, philosophy and science and calling it an organized religion, Westernism :wink:

Hinduism is purely based on its philosophy and sciences. All of the core texts of Hinduism are all philosophical discourses. They are no more religious texts than Sartre’s, “Being and nothing” or Kant’s, “Critique of pure reason” are religious texts.

None of the core tenets of Hinduism are based on beliefs. They are all based on rigorous philosophical argument and scientific investigations, such as the scientific investigation of the mind by Patanjali.

#16

I would’nt be suprised if Plotinus and Socrates and many of the teachers in the academies of ancient Greece had, or had encountered, gurus and spiritual teachers from Asia Minor, the Arabic world and beyond. Ideas certainly do migrate ,with or without people, and so also does technology, philosophy and, of course, spiritual science.

Now you mention it, i can actually see it.Neo-platonism springs to mind, as does their architecture and love of reason,science, the good life and pantheism.

#17

Many western academics will go as far back as the Greeks or Minoans ( isle of Crete) but won’t venture further because the story would end up traversing into other continents and civilisations much older.Perhaps for them the archaeology appears slimmer but the literature and the yogic heritage is enormous.

#18

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32056]Pawel, I prefaced those points by the following:

Another point I want to add to this discussion is the implications of what OIT would do to history as we know it today, and why it is these implications which lead to staunch opposition against it.

I have no wish to undermine other religions, but I am showing the implications of what would happen if OIT becomes accepted. [/QUOTE]

So imagine there are two buttons. If you will press one all people on the earth convert to Hinduism (BTW, since you say Hinduism is philosophy and science, why you use this term "converted back" in so many places?). If you will press second one, all people will remain in their religions/cultures forever. Which one would you press? If the first one, you are an enemy of other religions/cultures. You seek to destroy them (but maybe in more "soft" fashion) - even if for the welfare of the people.

Jesus was as much yogi (e.g. because of his devotion to God) as much Gandhi was Christian (because of his love of the poor). I strongly not recommend watching this video:

in which renowned scholar shows how Hinduism is in fact misguided version of Islam (and they should realize that and turn to Islam). After watching him for 20min (and especiall part when he criticizes a book by Sri Sri Ravi Shankar) maybe you will understand what I feel :slight_smile:

This is confusing. Is it about giving credit to Hinduism (which I strongly support) or about taking over the world (which I would prefer not to happen). Also, its not very clear that Hinduism is taking over. I found some stats in the most reliable source of knowledge :wink:

#19

[QUOTE=core789;32066]Many western academics will go as far back as the Greeks or Minoans ( isle of Crete) but won’t venture further because the story would end up traversing into other continents and civilisations much older.Perhaps for them the archaeology appears slimmer but the literature and the yogic heritage is enormous.[/QUOTE]

They do not venture so far because the evidence is slimmer and slimmer. That’s why lots of crazy people venture there and invent incredible stories :wink:
However, there are also examples of really deep ventures:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070718140829.htm
Somehow I don’t see any “western scientist” despairing at the prospect that humans originated in Africa…

#20

So imagine there are two buttons. If you will press one all people on the earth convert to Hinduism (BTW, since you say Hinduism is philosophy and science, why you use this term “converted back” in so many places?). If you will press second one, all people will remain in their religions/cultures forever. Which one would you press? If the first one, you are an enemy of other religions/cultures. You seek to destroy them (but maybe in more “soft” fashion) - even if for the welfare of the people.

I think we need to ask another question before I tell you what button I would press.

Is Christianity worth preserving in its current form? Let us look at Christian history: Crusades, inquisitions, genocides, suppression of science and philosophy. Let us look at some of its core doctrines: condemnation(all are sinners) exclusivism (must accept Jesus, or you will go to hell) and tyrannical god(all non-believers will be damned in hell)

Is Islam worth preserving in its current form? Let us look at Islamic history: mass genocide, conversion by the sword, fundamentalism, oppression especially of women. Let us look at some of its core doctrines: Slavery(we are slaves to god), intolerance(kill the infidels) anti-philosophy(nobody can question the will of god) mysogony(women are made to serve men both here and the hereafter; a woman must give sex to a man whenever he demands it)

I would have to answer they are not worth preserving in their current form. So I would have to press button 1. We can have Christian gnosticism and Sufism which are perfectly compatible with Hinduism, but orthodox Christianity and orthodox Islam has obviousy been a curse on this planet.

The worse things you can point out about Hinduism is perhaps the caste system or wife burning. However, these are historical and cultural specific issues in differet periods in India and have nothing to do with Hindu philosophy. As Hinduism never existed as an organized religion, there is no authority in Hinduism to ordain anything.

Jesus was as much yogi (e.g. because of his devotion to God) as much Gandhi was Christian (because of his love of the poor). I strongly not recommend watching this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-Oj8xxGaRY
in which renowned scholar shows how Hinduism is in fact misguided version of Islam (and they should realize that and turn to Islam). After watching him for 20min (and especiall part when he criticizes a book by Sri Sri Ravi Shankar) maybe you will understand what I feel

No, Jesus was not a yogi because of his devotion to god. He was a yogi because he was initiated by Hindu teachers, he taught Hindu teachings(reincarnation, non-dualism, and detachment from the sensory world) He even spent the rest of his life in India. See “Jesus in India” It is very clear looking at Jesus’s teachings the influence of Hinduism and Buddhism.

I have already seen the video by Zakir Naik. He is renowned only to Muslims, nobody else takes him seriously. He has been thoroughy discredited by academics. He claims Mohammed was predicted in the Vedas, in the bible and many other religious scriptures. He has been proven to fabricate citations. Outside of the Muslim world this man has no reputation.

This is confusing. Is it about giving credit to Hinduism (which I strongly support) or about taking over the world (which I would prefer not to happen). Also, its not very clear that Hinduism is taking over. I found some stats on the most reliable source of knowledge

20 million Americans in a Christian majority country practice Yoga. Churches in America are hosting Yoga. There is now even Christian Yoga. More and more Americans now believe in reincarnation, chakras, astral planes, kundalini, karma, higher sef, meditation, spiritual evolution. About 800 Hindu temples have sprung up across America. It is a silent take over. Hinduism dominates in every mind-body-spirit section in every bookshop. It has infuenced several movements in America: The American transcendentalist movement, the counter-cultural movement and the new-age movement. It has influenced the development of psychology and transpersonal psychology(which cite many Hindu texts) In the 21st century Hinduism will become the dominant philosophy of America.

#21

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32069]I think we need to ask another question before I tell you what button I would press.

Is Christianity worth preserving in its current form? Let us look at Christian history: Crusades, inquisitions, genocides, suppression of science and philosophy. Let us look at some of its core doctrines: condemnation(all are sinners) exclusivism (must accept Jesus, or you will go to hell and tyrannical god(all non-believers will be damned in hell)

Is Islam worth preserving in its current form? Let us look at Islamic history: mass genocide, conversion by the sword, fundamentalism, oppression especially of women. Let us look at some of its core doctrines: Slavery(we are slaves to god), intolerance(kill the infidels) anti-philosophy(nobody can question the will of god) mysogony(women are made to serve men both here and the hereafter; a woman must give sex to a man whenever he demands it)

I would have to answer they are not worth preserving in their current form. So I would have to press button 1. We can have Christian gnosticism and Sufism which are perfectly compatible with Hinduism, but orthodox Christianity and orthodox Islam has obviousy been a curse on this planet.

The worse things you can point out about Hinduism is perhaps the caste system or wife burning. However, these are historical and cultural specific issues in differet periods in India and have nothing to do with Hindu philosophy. As Hinduism never existed as an organized religion, there is no authority in Hinduism to ordain anything. [/QUOTE]

Ok. I just wanted to ask this “button question” because before you said “I have no wish to undermine other religions,…” however I felt otherwise (and what become clear in above text). I think it is good to drop pretense and be who you really are.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32069] No, Jesus was not a yogi because of his devotion to god. He was a yogi because he was initiated by Hindu teachers, he taught Hindu teachings(reincarnation, non-dualism, and detachment from the sensory world) He even spent the rest of his life in India. See “Jesus in India” It is very clear looking at Jesus’s teachings the influence of Hinduism and Buddhism.[/QUOTE]

Could you provide the historical sources? Or at least where could I find them. Because I never heard Jesus was initiated by Hindu teachers or taught reincarnation and non-dualism. Detachment yes, in several places he taught of the need to leave old life and follow him. But I don’t agree that this is clear he was influenced by Buddhism. He taught about personal God with whom we should develop close relationship - not exactly the main message of Buddha.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32069] I have already seen the video by Zakir Naik. He is renowned only to Muslims, nobody else takes him seriously. He has been thoroughy discredited by academics. He claims Mohammed was predicted in the Vedas, in the bible and many other religious scriptures. He has been proven to fabricate citations. Outside of the Muslim world this man has no reputation.[/QUOTE]

If I would live with him in the same house I would probably commit murder on myself or him! He is so annoying! :eek: However, I put this video hoping you could understand what I feel being confronted with such point of view. Someone who tries to decompose your identity and put it back but in his own way (in his case Islam).

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32069] 20 million Americans in a Christian majority country practice Yoga. Churches in America are hosting Yoga. There is now even Christian Yoga. More and more Americans now believe in reincarnation, chakras, astral planes, kundalini, karma, higher sef, meditation, spiritual evolution. About 800 Hindu temples have sprung up across America. It is a silent take over. Hinduism dominates in every mind-body-spirit section in every bookshop. It has infuenced several movements in America: The American transcendentalist movement, the counter-cultural movement and the new-age movement. It has influenced the development of psychology and transpersonal psychology(which cite many Hindu texts) In the 21st century Hinduism will become the dominant philosophy of America.[/QUOTE]

I believe that is correct description of the 60’s. Recently I read an article (in Christian magazine to be more funny) about New-Age movement in US. How it changed from the 60s and lost its way. Instead of searching for meaning and having high spiritual ideals, new age now is more and more commercialized “well being” philosophy, sort of spiritual supermarket aiming to make you feel good. “Yoga” as well - for great majority of people its just physical, relaxing exercise, with some meditation component at best…

#22

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32062]Hinduism is purely based on its philosophy and sciences. All of the core texts of Hinduism are all philosophical discourses. They are no more religious texts than Sartre’s, “Being and nothing” or Kant’s, “Critique of pure reason” are religious texts.

None of the core tenets of Hinduism are based on beliefs. They are all based on rigorous philosophical argument and scientific investigations, such as the scientific investigation of the mind by Patanjali.[/QUOTE]

I was thinking about it and reading on internet. I found this:

So I’m bit lost now. If canons of Hinduism are divine revelation how does it fit with proposed scientific nature?

#23

The ancient Greeks were Hindus.

And Plato and Socrates were yogis.

Fascinating stuff, Surya Deva.

I am most certainly open to all of that.

Indeed, it actually makes a great deal of sense.

#24

To undermine something suggests I want to be rid of it. This is why I said, “not worth preserving in their current form” In other words they need reform and many of their regressive views(exclusivism, tyrannical god, condemnation) need to be reformed. Fortunately, and a Christian member here has told me, there are forms of Christianity which are reforming those views and bringing them more in tune with Hinduism. Such as introducing reincarnation, karma and yoga.

Ultimately, if we go with what is true then the whole world is going to turn to Hinduism. As Hinduism is not based on any beliefs, but eternal principles. All of which can be scientifically validated. For example science has studied Yoga, reincarnation, astral travel and positive evidence has been produced for them. Modern physics now accepts Hinduism’s main tenet that the observer creates the physical universe and accepts other dimensions exist.

I think it would be helpful to you to not consider Hinduism a religion. I know it can sound like saying, “Hinduism is the the one true religion” Rather consider Hinduism more like spiritual research by the Indian people. This research is just as scientific as any physical research. As it is science, it means anybody anywhere in the universe can discover the same. This is why it is called the eternal law.

Indians do not own Hinduism. They merely discovered it. This research belongs to all of humanity.

Could you provide the historical sources? Or at least where could I find them. Because I never heard Jesus was initiated by Hindu teachers or taught reincarnation and non-dualism. Detachment yes, in several places he taught of the need to leave old life and follow him. But I don’t agree that this is clear he was influenced by Buddhism. He taught about personal God with whom we should develop close relationship - not exactly the main message of Buddha.

This is a very large topic and I realised it is off-topic as this is about the Indus valley civilisation. Do you want to start a separate topic to discuss this?

I believe that is correct description of the 60’s. Recently I read an article (in Christian magazine to be more funny) about New-Age movement in US. How it changed from the 60s and lost its way. Instead of searching for meaning and having high spiritual ideals, new age now is more and more commercialized “well being” philosophy, sort of spiritual supermarket aiming to make you feel good. “Yoga” as well - for great majority of people its just physical, relaxing exercise, with some meditation component at best…

The New-age movement is starting to reform now, largely due to Hindu gurus and masters making the original teachings which inform the new-age movement more accessible to the West. The problem with many new-age people is they lack context to the knowledge. In any case it does support my point that Hinduism is starting to take over. We will see this more and more clearly as the 21st century unfolds. It is inevitable as the current trajectory science is taking is going in the direction of Hinduism. Many quantum physicists for instance refer to Hinduism.

It is a silent take over. As you can remain Muslim and remain Christian, whilst at the same time believing in karma, reincarnation, dharma and yoga. It does not make me any less of a Hindu to use a computer, why would it make a Christian or a Muslim any less of a Christian or Muslim if they use Hinduism?

#25

[QUOTE=Pawel;32077]I was thinking about it and reading on internet. I found this:

So I’m bit lost now. If canons of Hinduism are divine revelation how does it fit with proposed scientific nature?[/QUOTE]

Hinduism does not have canons. However it doe have authoritative and less authoritative texts, but there is no injunction in Hinduism that one must read those texts. One can be a Hindu without reading any of the texts, or going to a temple, or worshipping a deity. What makes one Hindu is the knowledge and practice of the core principles of Hinduism:

*Living life as per dharma or eternal laws. You must flow with the laws of the universe and in harmony with nature.

  • You must be responsible for your life and your actions. If you want to change your life, you have to put in the action. The results are not in your hand. The law of karma is immutable.
  • You must develop your self and evolve every moment by expanding your consciousness.
  • You must recognise you are a spiritual being and part of a greater source and your purpose in life is to return to the source.

This is what makes a Hindu a Hindu. You cannot be born a Hindu, worshipping an Indian deity will not make you Hindu.

#26

A point on the texts in Hinduism. The most important category of texts are Sruti, this means they have been directly heard in a state of superconsciousness and therefore they are not authored by humans. The first Sruti texts are the Vedas, these are a collection of the writings of hundreds of realised sages in ancient Indian(men and women) who recorded the profound spiritual truths they had discovered in their meditations. They contain all of the knowledge of Hinduism(dharma, karma, yoga, reincarnation) in germinal form. It is based on this edifice Indian civilisation was built. So the Vedas are regarded as very sacred and the source of Hinduism.

Later, another category of texts appear known as the Upanishads, which are also considered Sruti, as they are revealed by divine sages. The Upanishads were used in the ancient Vedic schools called gurukuls where the master would instruct a handful of disciples on atman-vidya/brahma vidya(spiritual science) using philosophical argument, allegories etc (a tradition that is later adoped by Buddha and Jesus) The disciples had to use a 3-fold method to learn: Listening to the master, critical examination of what the master has taught and meditation on the results of the examination. This method is still used in gurukuls in India.

Later another category of text appears known as the Darshanas, which are the foundation of the philosophical and rational schools of Hinduism: Samkhya, Yoga, Vedanta, Mimasa, Nyaya, Vaiseshika. These are different from the Upanishads in that they systematize and codify the Vedic knowledge in a scientific way. They also all use a proper method of scientific anaysis known as the pramana method(valid means of knowing) which are 1) Perception 2) Inferene and 3) testimoy. The most important means were perception and inference. If any knowledge-claim was not empirically and logically sound it would be rejected.

The Darshana schools also known as the 6 systems of Hindu philosophy is what defines all of the core tenets of Hinduism. All practical systems in Hinduism come from the Darshanas. Yoga and proof of reincarnation come primarily from Samkhya; Ayurveda comes from Samkhya and Nyaya-Vaiseshika. The rituals like puja and kirtan come from Vedanta.

I will say a bit on the rituals of idol worship and where all those Hindu gods and goddesses come from. It is based on the Hindu philosophy of Sadguna Brahman and Nirguna Brahman first mentioned in the Brahma Sutras(foundation of Vedanta) Nirguna Brahman is the impersonal, ineffabe, infinite and perfect ONE and the source of all existence and it is beyond comprehension. However, when we refer to this Brahman we cannot but help personify it and give it human attributes through the agency of language. Hinduism therefore recogises the logical necessity for personal gods and gives you the freedom to create any personal god you wish. You can be as simple or as extravagant as you want. Your god could be your own teacher, mother or father. This is why India over thousands of years has evolved 330 million gods. It is understood by learned Hindus though that there is only one ultimate supreme being.

#27

In summary then Hinduism is defined by the Darshanas. The Darshanas developed their knowledge through empirical and logical analysis. This is why none of Hinduism’s tenets are a belief. Everything is based on very rigorous scientiic analysis. Hence, why modern physics and Hinduism are not at odds with one another, but confirm one another.

On the other hand, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are based on beliefs. This is the reason why they have been so messed up historically. Hindus have never had this problem because we worship knowledge, not beliefs. Hence why Hindus have been at the forefront of science. Even today Hindus are renowned for their ability in science. In an age of science we need Hindusim, because current science does not have a scientifically developed ethics or sound metaphysics, which Hinduism does.

How Hinduism can help the Abrahmic religions is by giving them valid spiritual technologies like Yoga and a valid metaphysical system to expain how reality works and the relationship between the soul and god. They must be made to understand that everybody is potentially divine(nobody is a sinner) and that spirituality is a personal journey and nobody can be forced on it. They must also understand that nature is sacred and we must preserve it and protect it to live in harmony with it. They must understand that realised masters are born everywhere in the world, and their prophets were one of many masters. They must be made to understand how dangerous blind beliefs are and how everybody must come to their own conclusions using their experience and intellect.

Hinduism accepts Jesus, Moses and Mohammed, but not as sole prophets of god, but as one of many realised teachers and masters. Hinduism accepts the bible, quran and torah, but not as the sole word of god, but as one of many divine texts. Hinduism accepts the rituals of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, but not as the only methods, but one of many to get to god. It is thus easy to see how Hinduism’s universalism brings together all religions and science. This is why it will be the worlds religion for the 21st century.

#28

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32123]To undermine something suggests I want to be rid of it. This is why I said, “not worth preserving in their current form” In other words they need reform and many of their regressive views(exclusivism, tyrannical god, condemnation) need to be reformed. Fortunately, and a Christian member here has told me, there are forms of Christianity which are reforming those views and bringing them more in tune with Hinduism. Such as introducing reincarnation, karma and yoga. [/QUOTE]

??? But you said before you DO NOT wish to undermine other religions. What you say now shows otherwise. I noticed in myself that sometimes I want to hide my radical and aggressive intentions and be perceived as very tolerant and wise person. So I’m sensitive to such things in others. I do not perceive you as a tolerant person – you do not tolerate “evil” things in others (and whole cultures) and you want to get rid of them.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32123]Ultimately, if we go with what is true then the whole world is going to turn to Hinduism. As Hinduism is not based on any beliefs, but eternal principles. All of which can be scientifically validated. For example science has studied Yoga, reincarnation, astral travel and positive evidence has been produced for them. Modern physics now accepts Hinduism’s main tenet that the observer creates the physical universe and accepts other dimensions exist. [/QUOTE]

It happens that I’m a professional physicist and according to my knowledge, science (and specifically physics) never produced any accepted evidence to support reincarnation or astral travel (I do not understand what does it mean to prove Yoga though). On contrary, I read from time to time about studies disproving such things as acupuncture or astrology. Also, modern physics does not accept tenets such as creation of physical universe by observer (my arms dropped when I read that…) and also existence of other dimensions. String theory needs additional dimensions to make math correct but it is not validated yet (so it is not scientific knowledge yet – just theory waiting for validation) and also those additional dimensions are extremely small and would not be able to hold whole worlds (like “astral” world).

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32123]I think it would be helpful to you to not consider Hinduism a religion. I know it can sound like saying, “Hinduism is the the one true religion” Rather consider Hinduism more like spiritual research by the Indian people. This research is just as scientific as any physical research. As it is science, it means anybody anywhere in the universe can discover the same. This is why it is called the eternal law. [/QUOTE]

I don’t think it would be so simple to call Hinduism a science - because of the high degree of subjectivity. I heard before this view that Hinduism is sort of “spiritual science” but I’ve never seen such frequency of this expression. I read on internet and found some articles on this subject:

One promoting this point of view:
http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Hindu%20Primer/hinduismandscience.html

And one criticizing it:
http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/vedic_science_Mira.htm

So it seems there is some political and social agenda behind this effort to present Hinduism as science…

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32123] Many quantum physicists for instance refer to Hinduism. [/QUOTE]

They refer to it just as a sort of philosophical inquiry and interpretation of their work. They do not cite Hindu scriptures in their works and do not consider them as a source of knowledge at everyday work. So it is bit misuse of their philosophical interests. And if it will be used as a part of “propaganda”, they soon will stop doing that – only to avoid being perceived by their peers as people with religious agenda (it is very damaging in terms of ability to publish and obtaining funding).

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32123]As you can remain Muslim and remain Christian, whilst at the same time believing in karma, reincarnation, dharma and yoga. It does not make me any less of a Hindu to use a computer, why would it make a Christian or a Muslim any less of a Christian or Muslim if they use Hinduism? [/QUOTE]

I’m lost again. You say that Hinduism is not based on belief and here you show how to remain in your own religion adopting BELIEFS in karma etc. And what does it mean to believe in Yoga?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32123]A point on the texts in Hinduism. The most important category of texts are Sruti, this means they have been directly heard in a state of superconsciousness and therefore they are not authored by humans. The first Sruti texts are the Vedas, these are a collection of the writings of hundreds of realised sages in ancient Indian(men and women) who recorded the profound spiritual truths they had discovered in their meditations. They contain all of the knowledge of Hinduism(dharma, karma, yoga, reincarnation) in germinal form. It is based on this edifice Indian civilisation was built. So the Vedas are regarded as very sacred and the source of Hinduism. [/QUOTE]

Whether you will say they were heard in a state of superconsciousness or told you by God, they are revelations in nature. External and divine knowledge given to you. I don’t know what can be further from scientific origin of knowledge. Writing down your inspirations and illuminations (or revelations from God himself) is not science. And any tradition based even partly on such knowledge should not pretend to be treated as scientific by definition.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32123]On the other hand, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are based on beliefs. This is the reason why they have been so messed up historically. Hindus have never had this problem because we worship knowledge, not beliefs. Hence why Hindus have been at the forefront of science. Even today Hindus are renowned for their ability in science. In an age of science we need Hindusim, because current science does not have a scientifically developed ethics or sound metaphysics, which Hinduism does. [/QUOTE]

Yes, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are based primarily on beliefs. And I don’t see anything wrong in that. Also, I don’t consider religion as something inappropriate that should be transformed into philosophical/scientific system. I want religions to remain religions – with full set of beliefs and rituals. Religion is for me closer to life than philosophy – among other things it gives the way for people without minds able to develop sophisticated philosophical analysis to express and experience spiritual part of their nature. And it has humility to admit that not everything can be explained/experienced and that faith is an important element of our life.

Transforming religion into science will damage religion – because it will promote rational perception of the world. So at the end it will become a limiting factor preventing full expression of the human spirit.

#29

??? But you said before you DO NOT wish to undermine other religions. What you say now shows otherwise.

Reforming is not the same as undermining. If you do not have a problem with a religion that believes that infidels must be exterminated, all non-believers will perish in hell and women must give their men sex whenever they wish, then you have a problem with yourself. Christianity and Islam need reform. Many of their beliefs are at odds with modern civilisation.

It happens that I’m a professional physicist and according to my knowledge, science (and specifically physics) never produced any accepted evidence to support reincarnation or astral travel (I do not understand what does it mean to prove Yoga though). On contrary, I read from time to time about studies disproving such things as acupuncture or astrology. Also, modern physics does not accept tenets such as creation of physical universe by observer (my arms dropped when I read that...) and also existence of other dimensions.

I think as a professional physicist you should be aware of quantum physics and the Copenhagen interpretation which is the prevailing interpretation in modern physics. This demonstrated that the particles does not exist before it is observed, it only exists as a wave of possibility or as Schrodinger models it as a wavefunction and the wavefunction only collapses when it is observed. Later, Eugene Wigner developed the consciousness-based theory of measurment which shows that all quantum systems are entangled prior to the act of observation. Another key quantum physics concept is entanglement which has been empirically demonstrated by the test of the Bell inequalities that the entire universe exists in a superpositioned state at the quantum domain. This notion is mirrored in Hinduism that all of reality is essentially one undifferetiated substance and everything is entangled by the mutual intterelations of the gunas.

I have read several books on quantum physics written by quantum physicists, and my dissertation was on quantum physics and Hinduism. So rest assured, I do know what I am talking about.

As for scietific studies producing positive evidence for astral travel, reincarnation and Yoga. The scientific research into these areas has been ongoing for several decades. See:

Astral travel:

http://cref.tripod.com/tucsonpaper.htm
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter07.html
http://www.parapsych.org/out_of_body_experiences.htm
http://www.towardthelight.org/neardeathstudies/suchapter.html

Reincarnation:

http://hubpages.com/hub/reincarnationevidence
http://www.pureinsight.org/node/1165

Yoga

http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch_intro1.htm

I hope you review these studies with an open and objective mind.

I don’t think it would be so simple to call Hinduism a science - because of the high degree of subjectivity. I heard before this view that Hinduism is sort of “spiritual science” but I’ve never seen such frequency of this expression. I read on internet and found some articles on this subject:

Other Hindus claiming Hinduism is a science might me misguided by political and nationalistic enthusiasm, but I am not. I am declaring this on the basis of the extensive research I have done of Hindu philosophy. Like science, Hindu philosophy is based on an epistemology and a methodology. All knowledge in Hindu philosophy must be first proven empirically and then demonstrated to be logically sound. There are no exceptions, nothing within Hinduism is accepted if it cannot be empirically and logically proven. It also must be able to stand up to counter-argument and peer-review.

Now spiritual science comes under the category of phenomenology which is a recent development in scientific philosophy. This is where one one uses ones observation itself to record scientific data. There are many kinds of phenomenology(neuophenomenology, ecophenomenology etc) Yoga is a mental phenomenology whereby through a controlled method one can investigate the mind and consciousness. As it is scientific and objective evidence it is replicable and can be validated by peer review. The studies done by ancient spiritual scientists or yogis produced very consistent phenomenological data on the various stages and levels of the mind, which is consistent with modern studies.

To give you an idea of some of the discoveries the Hindu's made in science

  • The discovery of the atomic theory of matter
  • The discovery that all matter was vibration
  • The discovery of the theory of mechanics
  • The discovery of formal languages and the science of linguistics
  • The discovery of binary numbers, hashing codes and error checking systems
  • The discovery of quantum theory of matter
  • The discovery of scientific medicine and surgery
  • The discovery of psychology
  • The discovery of mathematics
  • The discovery of city planning
  • The discovery of the expansion and contraction cycles of the cosmos
  • The discovery of evolution

Hindus have excelled in science because Hinduism is science. Nothing in Hinduism is a belief its all based on rigorous empirical and logical examination.

They refer to it just as a sort of philosophical inquiry and interpretation of their work. They do not cite Hindu scriptures in their works and do not consider them as a source of knowledge at everyday work.

They cite it because Hinduism is saying exactly the same thing. Schrodinger was so convinced he became Hindu himself. Do you know that the famous Schrodinger cat paradox is a reformulated Hindu paradox. Quantum physics has a lot to owe to Hinduism.

I’m lost again. You say that Hinduism is not based on belief and here you show how to remain in your own religion adopting BELIEFS in karma etc. And what does it mean to believe in Yoga?

Karma is not a belief it is a universal law of cause and effect. It simply means "action" and there is a reaction to every action. Likewise, there is an reaction for every physical and mental action you do. This is what happens according to the Yogasutras, it creates an imprint on the substance of your mind which is stored in your unconscious memory bank as samkaras. These samkaras get triggered by external stimuli and affect your conscious behaviour. Thus most of your behaviour is controlled by unconscious forces which are thought patterns developed from past actions.

In case you do not know this is called psychodynamics and psychoanaysis in the science of psychoogy. It is not a belief, but an actual measurable principle of the mind. Like I said nothing in Hinduism is a belief.

Whether you will say they were heard in a state of superconsciousness or told you by God, they are revelations in nature. External and divine knowledge given to you. I don’t know what can be further from scientific origin of knowledge. Writing down your inspirations and illuminations (or revelations from God himself) is not science. And any tradition based even partly on such knowledge should not pretend to be treated as scientific by definition.

I already told you Hinduism is not based on the Vedas, but on the Darshanas. The Darshanas accept the authority of the Vedas, but they do not base their conclusions on the testimony of the Vedas, but on scientific investigation. It is a very common Hindu ethic not to believe in anything, even if it was revealed by god himself, if it contradicts our experience and reason. This is why Hinduism is scientific. Nothing it claims is a belief.

Abrahamic religions are based on faith. Hinduism is based on science. There's your difference.

Transforming religion into science will damage religion – because it will promote rational perception of the world. So at the end it will become a limiting factor preventing full expression of the human spirit.

Here is a good test to see if something is good. Look at its effects. The Abrahamic religions are responsible for genocide, oppression, inquisitions, witch burning, fundamentalism, terrorism and many other things. Give me one good reason why we shoud preserve them as they are?

As a Hindu I tell you my reason is tellling me they are inherently destructive and they have no place in their current form in a modern and progressive world. We need a religion that suits our times and our scientific mindset. That is Hinduism.

There is no divide between science and spirituality. Spirituality can be scientifically studied. Many daring scientists today are doing just that. And they are confirming what the Hindus have known for thousands of years.

There is no place for faith in our modern world. Faith cannot be tested. Anybody can say anything and get away with it if we rely on faith. This is why it is dangerous.

#30

Before I read your links and respond, could you please send link to your thesis? It would be very interesting to have a look - I never saw such work before.

#31

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32161] Reforming is not the same as undermining. If you do not have a problem with a religion that believes that infidels must be exterminated, all non-believers will perish in hell and women must give their men sex whenever they wish, then you have a problem with yourself. Christianity and Islam need reform. Many of their beliefs are at odds with modern civilisation. [/QUOTE]

Sorry, but from what you write it is clear that you do undermine those religions. Or even more than undermine – you claim that they are something evil in our world. As I said I am aware of evils related with religions in past and present but I don’t want to go there – it would expand even more our discussion and basically I agree – those evil elements have to be reformed (but I’m not sure whether Hindu philosophy would automatically increase social justice and people rights). What I want to say is that if you take a sword you have to accept all consequences – e.g. the one that you are no longer follow ahimsa. Through your calls to remove those religions (remove and not only reform because you claim there is no room for faith in this world along with claim that those religions are based on blind beliefs) your karma is binded with forces aiming at their destruction.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32161] I think as a professional physicist you should be aware of quantum physics and the Copenhagen interpretation which is the prevailing interpretation in modern physics. This demonstrated that the particles does not exist before it is observed, it only exists as a wave of possibility or as Schrodinger models it as a wavefunction and the wavefunction only collapses when it is observed. [/QUOTE]

Copenhagen interpretation was just interpretation – it didn’t DEMONSTRATE anything. Experiments demonstrate properties of matter. Also it doesn’t claim anything about EXISTENCE of particles before/after measurement. Nature of existence is a domain of meta-physics, not physics. This is very important distinction, even one of the defining properties of physics. Expression “exist as a wave of possibility” is not a physical description. Quantum mechanics says that a system may be DESCRIBED as a wave function of given properties (a solution of Schr?dinger equation, and related with probability of observation of classical properties of the system). Also, wave function does not collapse ONLY when it is observed. From what we know, it collapses when we perform measurement. We do not know what is happening between measurements.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32161] Later, Eugene Wigner developed the consciousness-based theory of measurment which shows that all quantum systems are entangled prior to the act of observation. Another key quantum physics concept is entanglement which has been empirically demonstrated by the test of the Bell inequalities that the entire universe exists in a superpositioned state at the quantum domain. This notion is mirrored in Hinduism that all of reality is essentially one undifferetiated substance and everything is entangled by the mutual intterelations of the gunas. [/QUOTE]

Yes, I think it is amazing that physics arrived to similar concept of the interrelations of the world that Hindu philosophy. But comparison of the view of the world presented by quantum mechanics and by gunas (as I understand a composition of existence of sound, feeling, colour, taste and smell or triad of creation, preservation and destruction) is really far-fetched. Maybe some philosophical conclusions of quantum mechanics may meet with Hindu philosophy, but not quantum mechanics itself. That would require some sort of equation with gunas as variables able to predict all physical effects (e.g. diffraction of light).

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32161] Other Hindus claiming Hindu is a science might me misguided by political and nationalistic enthusiasm, but I am not. I am declaring this on the basis of the extensive research I have done of Hindu philosophy. Like science, Hindu philosophy is based on an epistemology and a methodology. All knowledge in Hindu philosophy must be first proven empirically and then demonstrated to be logically sound. There are no exceptions, nothing within Hinduism is accepted if it cannot be empirically and logically proven. It also must be able to stand up to counter-argument and peer-review. [/QUOTE]

Hm… Maybe I don’t understand what you mean by science. Could you show me for example how this theory that matter is composed of gunas (or other types of elements) was empirically proven? (I assume gunas are accepted part of Hindu philosophy). Could you provide sort of complete system of gunas which could be used to determine composition of each type of matter and how to conduct experiments to verify it? And how it predicts some basic properties of matter? (e.g. phase transitions or transparency). That may be very interesting. Or if not gunas, maybe other theory? I would like to see what exactly means this claim that they are the same (modern physics and Hindu philosophy).

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32161] Now spiritual science comes under the category of phenomenology which is a recent development in scientific philosophy. This is where one one uses ones observation itself to record scientific data. There are many kinds of phenomenology(neuophenomenology, ecophenomenology etc) Yoga is a mental phenomenology whereby through a controlled method one can investigate the mind and consciousness. As it is scientific and objective evidence it is replicable and can be validated by peer review. The studies done by ancient spiritual scientists or yogis produced very consistent phenomenological data on the various stages and levels of the mind, which is consistent with modern studies. [/QUOTE]

I know what you mean. I hope this phenomenology will develop fast – there is a lot of quantitative research to be done in this area.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32161] Hindus have excelled in science because Hinduism is science. Nothing in Hinduism is a belief its all based on rigorous empirical and logical examination. [/QUOTE]

Again I I don’t agree that nothing in Hinduism is a belief. Maybe if you consider rational component of Hinduism it is true. But there are millions of people who practice and develop Hinduism with faith as important aspect of their lives and perception.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32161] They cite it because Hinduism is saying exactly the same thing. Schrodinger was so convinced he became Hindu himself. Do you know that the famous Schrodinger cat paradox is a reformulated Hindu paradox. Quantum physics has a lot to owe to Hinduism. [/QUOTE]

Maybe I wasn’t clear – I’m under impression that quantum physicists DO NOT cite Hindu works in their scientific papers. E.g. stating some fact about properties of physical system and citing Bhagavad Gita.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32161] Karma is not a belief it is a universal law of cause and effect. It simply means “action” and there is a reaction to every action. Likewise, there is an reaction for every physical and mental action you do. This is what happens according to the Yogasutras, it creates an imprint on the substance of your mind which is stored in your unconscious memory bank as samkaras. These samkaras get triggered by external stimuli and affect your conscious behaviour. Thus most of your behaviour is controlled by unconscious forces which are thought patterns developed from past actions.
In case you do not know this is called psychodynamics and psychoanaysis in the science of psychoogy. It is not a belief, but an actual measurable principle of the mind. Like I said nothing in Hinduism is a belief. [/QUOTE]

Wait, if you define Karma as law of cause/effect then this is something different from stating that my unconscious impulses come from my previous life. And it is not psychoanalysis. Psychoanalysis is my hobby and I’m pretty sure reincarnation is not part of its theoretical framework.

Also, how can you measure Karma? (since you state this is measurable principle of the mind)

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32161] I already told you Hinduism is not based on the Vedas, but on the Darshanas. The Darshanas accept the authority of the Vedas, but they do not base their conclusions on the testimony of the Vedas, but on scientific investigation. It is a very common Hindu ethic not to believe in anything, even if it was revealed by god himself, if it contradicts our experience and reason. This is why Hinduism is scientific. Nothing it claims is a belief. [/QUOTE]

So I’m looking forward to example with gunas theory…

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32161] There is no place for faith in our modern world. Faith cannot be tested. Anybody can say anything and get away with it if we rely on faith. This is why it is dangerous. [/QUOTE]

Oh, I may also have different understanding of faith. I see it like that: science is part of the rational perception of the world. Rational – in meaning of ability to represent it as a logical structure using language (including mathematics). Everything outside that is not-rational. Not everything rational is science (e.g. I can rationally explain why I don’t like this book but it doesn’t make it science yet). However, we have other faculties of perception and experience of the world which in nature extends beyond rationality. E.g. feelings or mystical experiences. They provide experiences which can’t be expressed in rational fashion. Forcing only scientific/rational approach to life would damage development of those trans-rational experiences and faculties of perception.

In general, thank you for discussion! I enjoy it and learn a lot on the side.

I’m sorry I will not respond to links on evidences. Too much reading and too little content. I usually want to skip to results section and it is too difficult to find.