I wish I understood what you meant by that.
[QUOTE=Asuri;49719]As I contemplate this a little more, I have to admit that in some dreams (some of my dreams anyway) there is a shared experience. The experience is not shared in this reality, but it is quite real and sometimes we even get information that we can use in this reality. So I think it may be fair to say that there is a reality that is beyond our normal waking state, but somehow connected. Both are real, neither is unreal.[/QUOTE]
The common assumption is that upon waking from the dream, that the dream has come to an end. In fact, there is really not much difference between what one is experiencing in wakefulness, and in dream. All that a dream is, is certainly projections of one’s unconscious to the conscious mind. The language of the unconscious is symbolic, metaphorical, it does not use the linear logic of the intellect. Hence it transmits information to the conscious in the form of projected symbols. But these projections of the unconscious do not simply disappear upon waking up from the dream. Most of what we experience in our so called ordinary wakefulness, is largely a projection of the mind. That is what subjectivity is. That is why no two human beings on this planet are being supplied with precisely the same experience, everybody is interpreting the world in a way which is absolutely unique. And what one ordinarily assumes as “reality” is largely a psychological projection, it is not something which is born out of seeing things as they are. Once one comes to see things as they are, free of the projections of the mind, then almost 95 percent of what one had considered reality will disappear. In that sense, transformation is always a kind of death - the Truth shatters everything that one has assumed as real right down to the very foundation. And because most people have invested their whole lives into the dream world that they have created in the mind, it becomes very natural to be terrified of dissolving it. Even if it has created a prison, one wants to remain in the prison. There are some people who have been living in prisons for so long, that even when their time has expired and they fulfilled their sentance, they had preferred to remain in the jail. Because they had become so accustomed to that way of being, that to live in any other way was almost unimaginable.
Even what we consider as “real” in our waking state is not at all too different than the same stuff which dreams are made of.
[QUOTE=Asuri;50212]@Surya Deva
You really are a dirty, low-down, no-good son of a bitch. The fact is that the miracles of Jesus defied the laws of nature. It’s completely irrelevant whether I believe in Christianity or not. It just reinforces the point that Awwware made.[/QUOTE]
That such miracles have happened, one is absolutely unaware. All that one has heard of the matter are just second hand reports, most of which are entirely unreliable. And because the story of Jesus has been handed down through centuries, like any other story, it is bound to be distorted and twisted in such a way that to know of what had really happened is impossible. What the man said, what he did not say, what he had done and did not do, the only way to know was to be in the presence of the man, a direct witness. And even in being a direct witness, then too there is a great possibility of misinterpretation. When Jesus says something to his twelve disciples, the moment the message even enters the ears, it has become distorted with one’s own interpretation, with one’s own misunderstandings, with one’s own prejudices. It has been the case with every spiritual teacher - whether it has been Gautama Buddha, Jesus, Mahavira, Bodhidharma, Lao Tzu, they have all been greatly misunderstood. Because to understand a Buddha, you must understand not the words, but the space from which the words are arising. To understand a Buddha, you have to come to the same space as a Buddha. To understand a Christ, you have to come to the same space as a Christ. Because all of their words and expressions are a direct outcome of something which is far more fundamental, which is direct experience.
As far as miracles are concerned, most of the miracles are either symbolic, or have just been invented by the disciples to give credibility for this man being the son of God. Because otherwise, he becomes just an ordinary man. If he is to become something like the son of God, he has to do something like be born of a virgin, which is impossible. But the same story of a miracle birth is there for Buddha, for Krishna, for so many others. Man feels the need somehow to justify his beliefs by giving it some quality of otherwordliness. Otherwise, Buddha was just an ordinary man, if Jesus had been born and died just as everybody is born and dies, then the whole charm of it is gone.
Even in the New Testament, depending on which gospels you are looking at, there are different reports about the same events. Some places, it is said that Jesus remained on the cross for six hours, in other places, nine hours, in other places, a different account. The descriptions of the “disciples” are also conflicting on many different points. And these are just from the four gospels which have been included in the New Testament. There are other gospels which are just as old as the four gospels in the New Testament, but had not been included in the Bible. And those gospels give a totally different account on the personality, the events, and the life of the man. Some have even said that he did not die on the cross. He remained on the cross for only six hours, when ordinarily it takes a man more than 48 hours to die on the cross. And he was taken unconscious, resusciated, brought back to health, and then quietly brought outside of Jerusalem, and left for Kashmir where he died. In Kashmiri history, the story of Jesus is well known. His name was Isa, who was also referred to as a shepherd, who came from Jerusalem into Kashmir and started teaching. They even claim that there in Kashmir, is the tomb of Jesus. Next to the tomb, the feetmarks of the man were taken through a method of stamping the feet onto metal, and there you can clearly see the scars on the feet from the crucifixtion. This is a very different account of the life of the man. There is even a Buddhist text which had been found in the Hemis Monestary, which mentions the same figure, Issa, a divine incarnation who had been taken from Isreal to a monestary in Jerusalem from the age of thirteen, learned the teaching of the Buddhists, and then started teaching in Persia and various places before returning to Isreal. And even in Christianity, nothing at all is known of the life of the man between the ages of thirteen to twenty seven, the accounts of those years are entirely absent from the Bible. This is again, an entirely different account of the life of the man.
As to what had really happened, it is impossible to say, one can only remain absolutely ignorant.
[QUOTE=Asuri;50250]Describing you in unflattering (but accurate) terms is not violence. Violence is making malicious and disparaging remarks against all members of the Christian faith, because you’re pissed off at me. I’m not the one who’s indulging in temper tantrums here.[/QUOTE]
I make critical remarks about concepts. You make violent and abusive remarks about people.
You have told Amir he makes you sick and he is insane, and have told me I am a psychotic Hindu terrorist and a low-down son of a bitch.
Like I said, I have been consistent in attacking concepts. You have been consistent in attacking people.
Anyway, it’s your crediblity mate, no skin of my back 
You know Amir, you’re really very good. You talk about just enough generally accepted psychology to make yourself believable, then you start blowing smoke again. You’re really a classic con artist. Ordinary wakefulness is a projection of the mind? Not really. Ninety-five percent of what one had considered reality will disappear? No it won’t.
Why does Asuri get away with so many insults? To add his list of insults. He is now called Amir a “con artist”
Notice how neither myself or Amir have insulted him back even once.
While myself, Amir and Awaare and everybody else are discussing the central topic, Asuri is busy attacking
people with really violent insults. Surely this is against the t&c.
Apparently you missed what Awwware said.
Regardless of whether you believe in Christianity or not, the miracles in the Bible make the same point, that God is not bound by laws of logic, causality, and consistency. I’m not taking a position either way, I’m just saying, it’s the same point.
To accept the bible as proof for anything requires faith in the bible. That is called circular reasoning or begging the question. Amir has a made a very valid point, the bible is dubious because it gives contradictory accounts and makes exaggerations. It mentions how much the fame of Jesus had spread across lands etc, but the actual historians from that period make absolutely no mention of him.
You are obviously Christian, that we have all gathered - but you are possibly one of the most vicious and abusive Christians I have met online. Whenever any of your beliefs are questioned, even indirectly, you react by spitting venom.
This is how you make critical remarks about concepts? This was your response to the point I made above.
I feel compelled to correct what I said before. Actually it depends on the individual. It’s definitely true of Surya Deva, but thankfully it’s not true of everybody.
Actually I’m sort of a spiritual mongrel, about 40% - 60% Catholic, 40% -50% Hindu, and maybe 10% -20% Buddhist. I was raised as a Catholic and went to Catholic schools for ten years. I still have great love and respect for the people who taught me when I was young, even though I haven’t been a member of any church for quite some time. I’m not a member of a church, because I am just not a fan of religion in general. Still, I find your anti-Christian hate speech to be highly offensive, and consider it to be the mark of ignorance.
[QUOTE=Asuri;50306] Ordinary wakefulness is a projection of the mind? Not really. Ninety-five percent of what one had considered reality will disappear? No it won’t.[/QUOTE]
Asuri,
I would question this. If I have said that one’s ordinary wakefulness is just as much a distortion of “reality” as one’s dreams, there is a good reason for it. The first thing I would question is whether, in any state of consciousness, what one is experiencing is things as they are, or just an interpretation of things as they are through the senses.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50307]Why does Asuri get away with so many insults? To add his list of insults. He is now called Amir a “con artist”
Notice how neither myself or Amir have insulted him back even once.
While myself, Amir and Awaare and everybody else are discussing the central topic, Asuri is busy attacking
people with really violent insults. Surely this is against the t&c.[/QUOTE]
Surya, : )
I don’t really mind if a person is using insults. It is not really relevant to me. But if one has a point which one would like to make, one must support one’s understanding with the logic behind it.
Do not bother Amir. You are talking to a fundamentalist dualist. You will get no more a rational discussion with this guy than you will with a Christian creationist.
Asuri believes with all his heart and mind that god created this world for him to play in. He was raised catholic, and later got exposed to Hinduism and Buddhism, which he adapted to into his Christian framework.
He believes spirit and matter are absolutely separate like all Christians do, and anybody who tries to unify them, even without considering their reasons for doing so, are speaking nonsense and deserve condemnation. His list of hated people include some of the greatest philosophers in history for attempting such a thing.
He believes Patanjali did not say Yoga was the stilling of the mind and the removal of all thoughts, but Yoga is the removal of only negative thoughts. Ignoring that Patanjali actually gives a list of every vritti that one can have and how each one needs to be removed.
Catholic Christians have a habit of picking and choosing what they want to hear and forcing everything into a catholic viewpoint… Asuri is a good example. He has not even spared Patanjali.
[QUOTE=Asuri;50308]@Amir
the miracles in the Bible make the same point, that God is not bound by laws of logic, causality, and consistency. I’m not taking a position either way, I’m just saying, it’s the same point.[/QUOTE]
And yet, the same idea of God has been created as a by product of the mind. Otherwise, what is it that one is calling God ? The Christians must have some definition as to what they mean by God. And they do. They have a certain system of philosophy about it. That is what all theology is, it is a branch of philosophy. “Theos” means “deity” or God. Logos means “words” or discussions. Hence theology means to discuss about God. In Christian theology, God is a Supreme Being, the creator of the Universe, who has created man in his image, and who has transmitted his message through a long line of prophets right down to Jesus, who is finally the Son of God himself - not only an avatara, but the only avatara.
If one says that God is not bound by the laws of logic, then the very idea of God itself becomes meaningless, as does the theology behind it. It would be better to do away with that idea completely. But then, both Judaism and Christianity would simply disappear, because their philosophy is based from the foundation on the acceptance of the existence of God. And the reality is that the moment a finite mind makes an attempt to understand the infinite, hallucination is inevitable. Hindus are equally convinced that Sanskrit is a divine language that has been handed down from the angels, just as much as Jews believe that Hebrew is also a divine language handed down from the angels. If you go look in China, all of their Gods are Chinese, speak the Chinese language, enjoy Chinese culture, wear Chinese clothing. If you look at the God of the black man, his God must be black. These are all projections of the ego, creating God in it’s own image.
But, if you consider the various “Gods” and “Godesses” of different religions to be simply symbolic of different aspects of the energy of nature in it’s evolution, then that is different.
Surya,
If Asuri wants to cling to these conclusions, that is fine. But he should question why, regardless of our beliefs, Muslims are suffering, Jews are suffering, Christians are suffering, Hindus are suffering, Buddhists are suffering, Jains are suffering, atheists are suffering, agnostics are suffering, all are suffering alike. Perhaps our beliefs are absolutely irrelevant as far as living experience is concerned. And if a belief is not capable of bringing man to his liberation, then it should be questioned whether it is something worth clinging to.
Amir,
This is why Asuri is irrational. He does not question these beliefs. He has publically said he hates critics. He is not even prepared to read anything that questions these beliefs.
One can only have a discussion or debate with someone who will engage your points. This man refuses to engage any points that go against his Christianized beliefs.
You know when you are talking to an irrational person, when they appeal to faith and when they react violently to valid questions and criticisms.
@Surya Deva
You should look for job in propaganda. If you recall, I said I would not engage in pointless and worthless debate with you, because you are dishonest and your intentions are bad. As for your high minded approach of only making critical remarks on concepts, that appears to be out the window now, since it was so easy for me to show that was also a false projection of your mind. You continue to prove me right on every point. Thank you very much.
As for your high minded approach of only making critical remarks on concepts, that appears to be out the window now, since it was so easy for me to show that was also a false projection of your mind.
For once I think you are right. I give you too much time and energy. If you want to make a fool out of yourself by abusing everybody who disagrees with you, I should just leave you to your devices.
Coming back to the topic. So far it is clear to the objective reader that the side that has the most strongest case is the case for non-dualism. You have failed to defend the case for dualism by refusing to answer any objections against it and failing to counter any of the arguments for non-dualism.
@Surya Deva
For the fourth time, non-dualism leads to an impossible condition, which is the simultaneous existence of contradictory properties in the same entity.