Let me just clarify one thing. I don’t reject enlightenment. I reject the idea that enlightenment is a self-serving means to avoid the suffering that is inherent in life.
Borrowing from the original post “…and when these desires [of
possession] have vanished, we will enjoy the world, and then this buying and
selling and these foolish ideas of possession will be ended.”
I think the key words here are “desires of possession”. What does that mean, that we should have no possession? I don’t think so. I think it means we need to get rid of our greed and attachments, aversions, addictions, obsessions of all kinds.
Also notice “we will enjoy the world” … enjoy it, not leave it behind in our dust.
I am entitled to my opinion. I agree that these teachings are more subtle than what a lot of people realize. I see in France, hardly any Yoga teacher has studied classical commentaries of Yoga Sutra from Vyasa, Vijnabhikshu, Vacaspati Mishra, King Bhoja and others or commentaries about Samkhya from Aniruddha, Vijnanabhikshu aso. Even in India some of these texts can be difficult to get, yet I think that they are needed to study deeply as these shastras have been written a long time ago and for many of us in another culture though I think that it is not mandatory to evolve spiritually. These texts/shastras can be seen as bearing a universal touch, but people adapt often them in a decontextualized way without lucidity or without admitting it. I think that it is a matter of honesty, moreover how many Yoga teachers teaching Yoga Sutra really practise themselves for kaivalya, seen as a complete viyoga, the end of the body-mind complex. For instance as far as I know even a famous yogi Krishnamacharya, a devout vaishnava from the Ramanuja’s theist Vishishta advaita tradition admitted that he differed at times with things exposed in YS. I for one am interested in these texts mainly for the methodology, as guidelines, mirrors for self-knowledge, much less for the metaphysics. So I have studied them, and I carry on studying them, and I know that there is no concept such as Shakti. When I talk about Yoga, this is Yoga as exposed by Patanjali in YS, it is not necessarily true if we take into account other texts or certain traditions.
Philippe
P.S.: I have received also explanations from oral transmission.
I think that it is a matter of honesty
I have reached exactly the same conclusion.
I know that there is no concept such as Shakti
That is true, there is no explicit mention of Shakti in the YS. I have a couple of theories on that. The first is that Patanjali mostly follows the Samkhya tradition, which seeks to explain the working of the natural world in a philosophical rather than religious way. The second is that Shakti is a religious representation of the Samkhya principle of Prakriti. We need to keep in mind that the YS is generally not original thought, but a compilation of previously existing concepts in a systematic way. Practices like Kundalini come under the heading of Dhyana. Practices in the Upanishads which are called Dhyana generally involve some form of visualization. Samadhi is distinguished from Dhyana in that visualization is not practiced.
On the other hand, Samkhya literature defines Dhyana as cessation of raga (passion), which kind of reinforces the idea of different and competing or conflicting traditions, which may have originated from different cultures.
When you talk about ancient times you are talking about ancient Europe, not ancient India. It is an easy mistake to make to think that in ancient times all parts of the world were in similar conditions, but this is not true at all.
Ancient India was more developed than India is developed today and as developed as Europe is developed today. Food and resources were abundant and the climate was warm and tropical. There were hospitals, clinics and a full comprehensive healthcare system including surgery and dentistry and a culture of hygenie and physical health through Yoga and meditation. There were sanitation systems in place to collect sewage and dispose of waste. Each home had a bathroom, a toilet. A kitchen with oven. There were universities to study a wide range of subjects logic, mathematics, astronomy, philosophy, arts, politics and economics and a standardized system of units and language. The society was governed by a republic like democracy.
It is impossible to say what the life expectancy of people living in ancient India during that time was like, but from the evidence we have from foreign accounts of life in ancient India, ancient Indians were healthy, strong and intelligent. The Sanskrit texts mention 100 years as the ideal life span.
Knowing what ancient Indian society was like puts into context how developed the traditions in that society were and how they are not in any way lesser developed than modern society. Ayurveda, Sanskrit, Vedanta and Yoga still are applicable today, in fact no modern counterpart exists to match them. So we cannot actually claim to know more today, when in fact it is clear we know less. The way spirituality was practiced in Vedic times is the way spirituality is to be practiced today, and how it will be practiced tomorrow as well. The ageless wisdom is called as such because it never changes.
The mind of the ancient man living in ancient india is no different to the mind of the modern man. It is still the same chitt, it is still overruled by vrittis and still to achivem the pure mind the vrittis have to be stilled. And still the best method we know today to do that are Yoga.
If it was enough just to live morally in the world and practice mental renunication then Patanjali would have only described two limbs: yama and niyamas. No, of course that is not enough. The mind requires intense and dedicated physical practice in order to tame it, and this requires years of dedicated practice day in and day out. About 10 hours of meditation, pranayama a day.
The sit down practice of meditation is mandatory because this is where the training takes place. You cannot still and meditate with your eyes open, going about your daily tasks and reacting to the hustle and the bustle and the challenges of wordly life. The precondition to dhyana is pratyhara, and this only takes place when the senses have been withdrawn completely into the mind. Then one begins to introvert into the mind and begins to penetrate through its layers.
In day to day life you cannot do that, because you need the senses to live.
The continual intense practice of meditation will raise the level consciousness and make the mind more and more alert. Ones consciousness will grow very much like a muscle does after it is subject to stress during a work out, it grows back even stronger and bigger. Spiritual training is no different to physical training. If you are are serious about the fitness of your physical body to bring it to professional athletic level, you need to dedicate your life to training regularly at the gym, regulating your diet and lifestyle. Similarly, if you are serious about the fitness of your consciosuness and want to bring it to professional enlightenment level, you need to dedicate your entire life to spiritual training, practicing hours of meditation, pranayama a day, eating a sattvic diet and practicing a sattvic lifestyle. No pain, no gain. Those who are not putting in the effort are not going to get results. They can rationalize, makes excuses and delude themselves all they want that they can get by without the pain.
I do not know of a single master who reached enlightenment without physical renunciation.
I do not have time to check in details all your claims about ancient India though I am aware that India was a wealthy and highly civilized place before muslim invasions though unfortunately not strong enough to face them. But it said that many Rishis were householders. More recently Ramakrishna was married and he placed Nagmahasaya at the same level of some disciples who were renunciants.
Nowhere it is written in YS to lead such an ascetic life such as spending 10 hours a day in sitting meditation, pranayama and other exercises of this style, nor in the classical commentaries I read and the oral teachings I received. Dharana, dhyana, samadhi are first defined as states of mind and pratyahara is a consequence of dharana in YS cf. YS II-53-54. It is placed before only because the 8 limbs are classified from the more external to the more internal.
I think that you underestimate the power of karma and bhakti yogas, they make wonder.
You seem to consider a lot of what you state as universal and eternal truths and I wish you all the best if you want to go for such a lifestyle to check for yourself. In all cases, I respect it a lot.
Philippe
Hi to all you guys in the forum.feel free to contact me Im all about growing and evolving please since this is a forum and people have the tendency to fight with words let me tell you guys that yoga is very manly and that theoretical quarrels wont bring you salvation or freedom and thats the mark of a girly characters please lets stop fighting and arguing and lets do more practical work and help each other to conquer the enemy within ,after all we only got one enemy ourselves (that by the way is for the semiawakend the rest still got the enemy within and the enemy outside).I’m currently leaving in San Diego California and I’m looking for a real guru or someone that want to point me the way.Someone that is not asking for money cause thats nasty stuff that should not relate to yoga even do I understand that people have to eat.any body know the asanas and pranayamas well and follows Patanjali system in a traditional and strict way I need help to correct my practice.One more time Im not here to play who is the wiser man or posing I need some help in perfecting my practice if someone want to exchange philosophical points of views thats fine but after all theory wont make you better than a monkey.And I read quit a few classics to.In every book the hindus recommend the usage of a guru and I been thinking that the idea is a little bit manipulative after all there is so many books on the subject and videos in the net .why do we need a guru? to make him feel important? that sounds like a business or cult. but anyways thats what the higher authorities recommend Anybody wants to expose hes ideas about and bring practical solutions .Where is the guru? I already went to the vedanta temple closes to my place and they seem to play heads games like they want you to show are the litle vedanta one on one of sundays morning well what about if you know what you want already and all you need is a simple guidance in your asanas and pranayamas practices.I dont like submission to any man after all we all here trying to attain the same freedom.
Ancient India has a 10,000 year known history. The Muslim occupation period is therefore relatively very recent. This happened during the weakest phase of India, where India’s material aspect had been undermined by Buddhism, especially it defenses. Otherwise, it is clear to see that even during the invasion of Alexandra the great, how powerful the Indian military was. Alexandra’s army was forced to retreat when faced by its towering might. During the high period of India’s history India was an indomitable country, nobody could invade it, on the contrary India had expanded its influence across the world, colonizing Indonesia, Burma, Java, Thailand, Cambodia, Americas and Europe. This is the great period of Aryan expansion in the world.
The point in pointing this out is that modernity does not apply to the entire world, as India very much was a modern country even 5000 years ago. Modernity is a Western phenomenon and refers to the modernization and civiliizing of Europe. Other places in the world were already modernized long before Europe. This is why we should not pretend we are anymore intellectually advanced today overall than we were in the past. The spiritual sciences discovered in ancient India are just as true for today, as they were in the past.
The human body has not evolved much at all from 5000 years to to the 21st century. It still very much constituted the same. Hence, why 5000 years old mind-body sciences of India like Yoga still works today. If that was not true, it would not become a multi-billion dollar industry.
No in the YS it does not say that one should meditate for 10 hours a day sitting in meditation, because the YS only with the generals and not the specifics. But it is stated clearly in the YS that you need to be doing Yoga with single minded dedication. The YS is not written for householders, it is written for yogis dedicated to the practice of Yoga.
YS 1.1: Atha Yoganusasanam
- Now, at this auspicious time, begins the teachings of the sacred science of Yoga.
Almost all commentaters on this sutra have pointed out that the first sutra indicates a progression and initiation into Yoga. The individual is now ready after completing preliminaries of life to start the journey of Yoga. It is not written for the modern 21st century Westerner who wants to do Yoga 1-2 hours a day and do other things on the side. It is written for serious yogis who want enlightenment. This science was only taught to people who were initiated by the guru, not to anybody.
Early on Patanjali explains exactly how Yoga is to be done:
YS 1.12: Abhyasa varigyabhyam tannirodhah
- Sustained practice and detachment are the means to still the vrittis in the mind
Then Patanjali gives a definition on what practice is:
YS: 1.13: Tatra sthitau yatnah abhyasah
- Sustained practice is the steadfast effort to still the vrittis in the mind
YS: 1.14: sa tu dirghkala nairantaraya satkara asevitah drdabhumih
- This, practice sustained for a long time, uninterupted, with total dedication and performed assiduously is the firm foundation to still the vrittis in the mind.
So there is no ambiguity here that Patanjali means total, single-minded dedication to practice, practiced for a long time, uninterrupted. He does not say, practice a bit in the day, then go out and do other things(watch tv, have sex, a pint with your friends, go the cinema, do the household chores) Like I said, Patanjali is addressing a serious student of Yoga who has accepted Yoga as their life path. Yoga is not a hobby that the 21st century Westerner has turned it into.
Patanjali further makes further remarks on practice:
YS 1.20: sraddha, virya smriti samadhiprajna purvakhah itaresam
- Practice must be pursued with reverence, trust, vigour and total absorption to break spiritual complacency
YS 1.21: tivrasamveganam asannah
- The goal is near for those who are supremely vigorous and intense in their practice.
YS 1.22: mrdu madhya adhimatravat tatrah api visesah
- There are differences between those who are mild, average and intense in their practice
The word Patanjali uses gives the give away. He uses the word samvega, which is a technical word like samyama, meaning perfect speed. Meaning to say if you are incredibly intense in your practice and maintain that speed of practice the goal is not far. When he distinguishes other grades of practice mild, average and intense, he is not at all referring to the 21st century Westerner doing their 1-2 hours meditation a day. He is referring to students of Yoga who have accepted Yoga as their life.
Thus Patanjali makes it very clear in the very first chapter of the YS itself that you need absolute dedication to the path, if you want to attain the goal of Yoga, even the intermeditate goals. Patanjali would not have at all tolerated the 21st century Westerner insisting they are practicing spirituality by doing their 1-2 hours yoga and meditation a day(most don’t do daily practice, but weekly practice) and insisting it is sufficient just because they are modern. He probably would have laughed out loud.
Ancient India was more developed than India is developed today and as developed as Europe is developed today.
A case of overactive imagination I’m afraid.
Nothing to do with imagination. I have read history of India from 10,000 years ago to present, so I know it generally quite well. It has always been a very wealthy country with massive industry. The west are new kids on the block. Even from the years 1AD to 10AD, which was the height of Western power with the Roman empire, India’s economy far outstripped the West, with a 32.9% share of the worlds gdp. The highest share a country/region has ever had in known history.
A philosopher once pointed out that if you look at 500 years of history it is very clear the West are the top of civilisation, but if you look at the 5000 year story, it is India and China which are at the top of civilisation, with the West nowhere to be seen. In any case, this discussion is a bit of side-track in this thread. Lets focus on the reunication topic.
Could you mention your sources ? I have never read nor heard anything like that. Traditionally teachings such as Patanjali Yoga were mainly taught in gurukula during the brahmacarya period, they were made to be meditated upon all life long including during the grihasta period. Ascetic yogic sadhanas are mainly found in some tantric lineages such as the Nath tradition and texts such as Hatha Yoga Pradipika. Moreover there is no need to indulge into such useless sophisms with me, spare your time and mine, please. What you write about Patanjali not tolerating and laughing out load is ridiculous. I have already shown that it has been accepted since time immemorial that one can be a dedicated yogi and a householder, there is no need to repeat it again and again.
Philippe
Surya deva: yoga is a solution for any man ready to take the express way back to hes maker.any man that practice yoga is already a yogi .hahahaha but to atain the yogi states all start in dhyana however any man that try to achieve ekagra is trying to yug to hold.tapas is the same crap it all end with the union of subject and object but you see not any union will give you liberation and thats the yoga target overall.(you could create a legitimate union between you and beer)(or between your hand and porno)(or between your bad habits of come here to try to impress people and the compliments you get from the lost souls that does not know shit about yoga)So I already said to stop fighting with words like litle girls and start training like real man.theory dont make you better than a monkey and more shit you talk more easy is to spot your wanker nature.Any body by the way in San Diego California? that knows any serious practitioner of raja and tantric yoga ? please guys let me know.
I have not really indulged in useless sophisms, I have simply made my point very vividly clear by citing from the YS that Patanjali means by practice. Surely enough, it very explicitly says that practice has to be intense, unbroken, zealous, single-minded, uninterrupted. There is no ambiguity here in what Patanjali is saying.
Therefore Yoga is not just a hobby or exercise discipline that householders can do on the side, it a total way of life and religion that one is initiated into and then practices for the purpose of salvation . You should not act surprised, because if you are aware of the history of Yoga, Yoga has always been an initiation tradition. It was not something that householders did.
You are finding this difficult to accept, I can sense that. As a 21st century Westerner living a resposible worldly life, to be told you are not a yogi and are not practicing real yoga is a difficult pill for the ego to swallow. But I am just a messenger, so please don’t shoot the messenger. Even the masters you mention who were married did not live a worldy life either.
Ramakrishna got married and he did not have any intercouse with his wife, he saw her as the goddess. After his marriage, he did not work either, he continued his spiritual practices zealously and lived like a monk. Guru Nanak, from a very young age refused to work and used to spend hours everyday absorbed in meditation or the company of saints. Then later when they married him, he too did not stay home, he wandered all over India preaching. Buddha completely renounced his family and wordly life to search for enlightenment tirelessly, and then when he got it, he did not become wordly, he wandered India preaching.
Yoga is a serious path for serious students of Yoga who are ready for the path. You first need to have a burning thrist for it to be allowed on it. Even Ramakrishna did not initiate any students who did not have that. One time when a student told him how much they want self-realization, Ramakrishna took him to a lake and then forcibly and suddenly thrust their head under the water and held him down untill he started to suffocate. At that moment he released him and exclaimed to the student, “Until you do not crave the Self as much as you craved that last bit of breath, you are not ready for this path”
This theme of readiness also applies to the ashrams of life that you mentioned. In the first phase of brahamacharya the student merely got an education, they were not initiated in Yoga. The period where Yoga initiation began was in the sanyasa period and this was only after the householder period had ended so you were ready for it. There was also a choice to enter into the sanyasa period at any point in your life, but to so do meant rejecting the householder period. If you were not ready for that, you would not do it.
You have to be ready for Yoga. Then Yoga becomes your entire life - again, Yoga was not created for the 21st century Westerner consumerist.
Little friend you need more info you want for those saints what you want for you.(total inactivity )But let me tell you something Ramakrishna was a tantrika before been anything else and do you know who initiate him? hahhaha exactly a woman.Do you know how they do it? go ask a tantrika woman she will tell you become a warrior and a real man first.Number two B K S Iyengar is been a house holder till the wife die years ago plus he didn’t renounced like a sanyansi and hes been a pretty good yogi as far as I know .Is way harder to abandon the world and and keep practicing that to renounce it and hide like a coward in the mountains.You are confuse and is ok because you are learning ,you can fix it as long as you dont take to many book words for the true the most important thing is to find the right sources and exercise your own brain.One more time you are confuse Karma yoga is yoga, bhakti yoga is yoga, tantra yoga is yoga so raja kundalini even karate is a way of modify yoga.Get it right all the ways take you to the father .Read karma yoga of swami vivekananda and stop wanking here in the forum trying to look smart.cause you are not get in it.Patanjalis way is only a way there is other many ways.By the way you can be a beggar and be more attached than a king to hes kingdome.Thats the true meaning of renouncing.By the way renouncing to what? if you have nothing.first be a man show to yourself what your capable of obtaining then renounce it.You want to renounce without having nothing to renounce ahhahahaha where is the glory?Another thing the story of the whater insertion is way older than Ramakrishna even Socrates the greek philosopher just to do that to hes disciples and Socrates came way before Ramakrishna.But that little parabola is even older than that.An old trick of initiation.
The initiation rites of how Ramakrishna was initiated into his spiritual practice by his woman guru is just your speculation and nothing more. I am going to discard that as dubious until you can produce real evidence that supports your view.
The example you gave me of a karma yogi gives the entire game away. Swami Vivekananda was a sanyasi. He also had to renounce his family and household, and go off to the ashram of Ramakrishna and wander with him as a sanyasi.
Karma yoga is not the same as householder life. You never return to the householder stage even after you reach enlightenment. Buddha did not. Guru Nanak did not. Kabir did not. Swami Vivekananda did not. Swami Yogananda did not. Swami Ramakrishna did not.
Instead what they did do, was go out there into the world and preach, help with social transformation.
You see what I find ironic even the examples of people you are giving me of people who you purport to have done it another way, also had to go through the rites of passage of sanyasa. Indirectly, you are simply ratifying what I am saying that sanyasa is an absolute precondition to enlightenment. If you want to gain everything, you also need to lose eveything you have. An empty vessel can be filled, not a full one.
Like I said I am just the messenger and I carry the message of all enlightened masters, teacher, sages and saints. If you want enlightenment - you better be prepared to make some major sacrifices in your life. It is clear that you will never reach enlightenment in this lifetime because you are simply too greedy, lazy and complacent. That is the bottomline. Patanjali backs me up on that to the T.
hahhahahahah.you are just a wanker.Missing the point! Yoga is about integrating buddy not escaping from the world .I live in america not in India.You are to cut up in mystical crap.Jesus Christ was a perfect Yoga and he came to live among the people not just go and hide in a mountain.rites dont mean shit all the work is done in the temple of your self.You dont know shit about tantra either.Thats why you cant put it together with the example of Ramakrishna.Renounsing doest not mean to destroy the bodies only to control the needs of it and by the way I gave you other example of a house holder that is a pretty good yogi but it seems that you dont know shit about him.Well go to my previews thread and get it cause I wont repeated lets see who is the lazy that dont even read properly before writing a respond .You dont know me but base on your pseudo mystical bala bla bla ( not to accurate knowledge) I can see that you are a professional wanker and a 24 years old kid.you are not a messenger you are just a parrot trained in read and spit the few things that your automatic brain can hold for few minutes.
Warned for personal attacks per the forum rules by David at 2:08pm Central on 11/16/10
Personal attacks and foul language reported. There will be no further discussion between you and I. Good luck in your journey 
[quote=Surya Deva;42730]
You are finding this difficult to accept, I can sense that. As a 21st century Westerner living a resposible worldly life, to be told you are not a yogi and are not practicing real yoga is a difficult pill for the ego to swallow. But I am just a messenger, so please don’t shoot the messenger. [/quote]
Suryadeva, I am not in need to be recognized as a yogi by the others. I can even been looked down or considered a “second-citizen” in spirituality, a mleccha by an orthodox southern Brahmin, lost in samsara for a die-hard theravadin, hellbound for an evangelical, deluded for a fan of Dawkins or whatever, I could even have a good laugh at times. Usually I say that I practise Yoga, I use the words sadhak or Yoga practitioner and hardly yogi as it often implies mastery of Yoga, something which can sound a bit presumptuous. I talk very little about my spiritual life in the daily life, I am very cautious with that.
That being said, I think that I know enough about Yoga (practically and also even if there is no special merit also intellectually, I have read hundreds of books about Yoga and Hinduism, it happens that I am often curious) and India, my wife - whom I met surprisingly in India when I was residing in some ashram - is Indian, I have been there multiple times. So I would say that I know a bit about what I am talking on the subject, this is not a fancy of the “average” Westerner you seem to portray. As I have said, I am entitled to my opinion, an opinion shared by many people including Indians. Moreover my spiritual path is aligned with the teachings from Sri Aurobindo and Mother something quite heterodox and different from Patanjali Yoga. A path for instance which has nothing to do with sex though the sex energy is used, that being said I would not enter the details of my private sexual life. They are my main references. I have been interested in Classical Yoga more as an adjuvant, for the pedigree it is in the Krishnamacharya’s (Krishnamacharya was the descendant of Sri Nathamuni, a Vaishnava saint, famous yogi and householder who was living in South India during the 10 the century) tradition that I am learning since years mainly with my mentor Bernard Bouanchaud, student of TKV Desikachar, student himself of Krishnamacharya, student of Rammohan Brahmacari. It happens that all of them fall in the category of “householders”. Basically for me all life is Yoga 24h/24h, 7/7 days, in the traffic jam in Delhi, in the metro during strikes in Paris, when I am teaching in the classroom, listening to music, writing poetry aso… and not just the number of hours spent on a mat. Understand it who may.
Philippe
P.S. : More on Sri Aurobindo. One can disagree, I would not mind, I am not here to prove anything about that nor for any propaganda.
http://www.miraura.org/teaching.html
http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/writings.php
Personal attacks ? what type of yogi are you that react so easy to a litle spank in the butt? hahahahahah you just need to be more humble kid the sky is the limit .By the way your comments hold always some true but so the other people coments to.In reality is true that renunciation is part of the way but to integrate not to scape.can you get that concept? Remember that you have a body and is your vehicle of expression.
Philippe I felt the nececity to back up your comments cause this surya deva litle kid is out of control.He is the example of the fanatic point of view.By the way is really important to know your stuff is just like I said before you need to be doing your practical work as well.Feel free to drop me a message Im allways learning even from the ants…