Vivekananda explains the idea of renunciation as follows

The initiation rites of how Ramakrishna was initiated into his spiritual practice by his woman guru is just your speculation and nothing more. I am going to discard that as dubious until you can produce real evidence that supports your view.

The example you gave me of a karma yogi gives the entire game away. Swami Vivekananda was a sanyasi. He also had to renounce his family and household, and go off to the ashram of Ramakrishna and wander with him as a sanyasi.

Karma yoga is not the same as householder life. You never return to the householder stage even after you reach enlightenment. Buddha did not. Guru Nanak did not. Kabir did not. Swami Vivekananda did not. Swami Yogananda did not. Swami Ramakrishna did not.
Instead what they did do, was go out there into the world and preach, help with social transformation.

You see what I find ironic even the examples of people you are giving me of people who you purport to have done it another way, also had to go through the rites of passage of sanyasa. Indirectly, you are simply ratifying what I am saying that sanyasa is an absolute precondition to enlightenment. If you want to gain everything, you also need to lose eveything you have. An empty vessel can be filled, not a full one.

Like I said I am just the messenger and I carry the message of all enlightened masters, teacher, sages and saints. If you want enlightenment - you better be prepared to make some major sacrifices in your life. It is clear that you will never reach enlightenment in this lifetime because you are simply too greedy, lazy and complacent. That is the bottomline. Patanjali backs me up on that to the T.

hahhahahahah.you are just a wanker.Missing the point! Yoga is about integrating buddy not escaping from the world .I live in america not in India.You are to cut up in mystical crap.Jesus Christ was a perfect Yoga and he came to live among the people not just go and hide in a mountain.rites dont mean shit all the work is done in the temple of your self.You dont know shit about tantra either.Thats why you cant put it together with the example of Ramakrishna.Renounsing doest not mean to destroy the bodies only to control the needs of it and by the way I gave you other example of a house holder that is a pretty good yogi but it seems that you dont know shit about him.Well go to my previews thread and get it cause I wont repeated lets see who is the lazy that dont even read properly before writing a respond .You dont know me but base on your pseudo mystical bala bla bla ( not to accurate knowledge) I can see that you are a professional wanker and a 24 years old kid.you are not a messenger you are just a parrot trained in read and spit the few things that your automatic brain can hold for few minutes.

Warned for personal attacks per the forum rules by David at 2:08pm Central on 11/16/10

Personal attacks and foul language reported. There will be no further discussion between you and I. Good luck in your journey :slight_smile:

[quote=Surya Deva;42730]
You are finding this difficult to accept, I can sense that. As a 21st century Westerner living a resposible worldly life, to be told you are not a yogi and are not practicing real yoga is a difficult pill for the ego to swallow. But I am just a messenger, so please don’t shoot the messenger. [/quote]

Suryadeva, I am not in need to be recognized as a yogi by the others. I can even been looked down or considered a “second-citizen” in spirituality, a mleccha by an orthodox southern Brahmin, lost in samsara for a die-hard theravadin, hellbound for an evangelical, deluded for a fan of Dawkins or whatever, I could even have a good laugh at times. Usually I say that I practise Yoga, I use the words sadhak or Yoga practitioner and hardly yogi as it often implies mastery of Yoga, something which can sound a bit presumptuous. I talk very little about my spiritual life in the daily life, I am very cautious with that.

That being said, I think that I know enough about Yoga (practically and also even if there is no special merit also intellectually, I have read hundreds of books about Yoga and Hinduism, it happens that I am often curious) and India, my wife - whom I met surprisingly in India when I was residing in some ashram - is Indian, I have been there multiple times. So I would say that I know a bit about what I am talking on the subject, this is not a fancy of the “average” Westerner you seem to portray. As I have said, I am entitled to my opinion, an opinion shared by many people including Indians. Moreover my spiritual path is aligned with the teachings from Sri Aurobindo and Mother something quite heterodox and different from Patanjali Yoga. A path for instance which has nothing to do with sex though the sex energy is used, that being said I would not enter the details of my private sexual life. They are my main references. I have been interested in Classical Yoga more as an adjuvant, for the pedigree it is in the Krishnamacharya’s (Krishnamacharya was the descendant of Sri Nathamuni, a Vaishnava saint, famous yogi and householder who was living in South India during the 10 the century) tradition that I am learning since years mainly with my mentor Bernard Bouanchaud, student of TKV Desikachar, student himself of Krishnamacharya, student of Rammohan Brahmacari. It happens that all of them fall in the category of “householders”. Basically for me all life is Yoga 24h/24h, 7/7 days, in the traffic jam in Delhi, in the metro during strikes in Paris, when I am teaching in the classroom, listening to music, writing poetry aso… and not just the number of hours spent on a mat. Understand it who may.

Philippe

P.S. : More on Sri Aurobindo. One can disagree, I would not mind, I am not here to prove anything about that nor for any propaganda.
http://www.miraura.org/teaching.html
http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/writings.php

Personal attacks ? what type of yogi are you that react so easy to a litle spank in the butt? hahahahahah you just need to be more humble kid the sky is the limit .By the way your comments hold always some true but so the other people coments to.In reality is true that renunciation is part of the way but to integrate not to scape.can you get that concept? Remember that you have a body and is your vehicle of expression.

Philippe I felt the nececity to back up your comments cause this surya deva litle kid is out of control.He is the example of the fanatic point of view.By the way is really important to know your stuff is just like I said before you need to be doing your practical work as well.Feel free to drop me a message Im allways learning even from the ants…

Well I invite you to keep a civil tone and avoid ad hominem attacks, else I am afraid that I would have to use the ignore list button.

Philippe

I think it is just better we not discuss Teitan, until you can write more like an adult. Meaning not use personal attacks and foul language(this is stipulated in the terms and conditions of the forum) I respect difference of opinion and views, I do not respect immaturity. I have told you once, I will not tell you again. You have repeatedly called me a “wanker”, told me my views are “shit” and this behaviour is not tolerated on this forum.

P.S. Phillipe, please do not let our difference of opinion cloud your objectivity. The member Teitan, ever since hes joined this forum, has been using obscene insults against me. I have kept a relatively civil tone in discussing with this member.

You guys are so funny responsible wordly life? haahhaaa what the f is that? Man who cares what type of life? Everybody is Human here everybody is looking for the same even when they dont know what is it.Thats why we got yoga and whoever is ready is probably in hes way and asking about it not to say seating in asana.Get cut up in seudo mistisism and words and lineages are the mark of the poser.Is like confusing the map for the territory.Go to work!

Kid Im older than you and more talented to.(older in reincarnating)take a brake you want me to give you bibliography gest what become more humble.You are very disrespectfull.I been spoting your errors .you can call my way whatever you want .Im a profesional warrior one of the few that fight and kill people for your country when you are wanking at your seudo misticism.So yes I can renounce to violence cause I been There .what about you?You are training to become a bunny.dont forget that Arjuna was a warrior .And warriors will tell you like it is .so dont call my words inmaturity call them to hard for you.

It does no matter how many creditials you have is about you. what matters.credentials dont make you better than a monkey.Is the tpical tell me how I look and not who Im .Is easy for me to read and see what you really know.lol

Dear Phillipe,

I am not calling you a mleccha, condemned or anything. There maybe some people who hold these views, but I am not one of them. I recognise you as you speak, and you are to me a wordly person living a responsible wordly life. You are a good person, somebody I would likely keep as a friend.

I do not recognise you as a yogi though. I am sorry, but you are not on the path of yoga. You will be, most certainly one day, but I don’t think it is going to be in this lifetime. Best of luck on your spiritual journey anyway. I only have good will for people, I do not wish bad on anybody.

The truth is very clear, though you are not accepting it, Yoga was not created for the 21st century Western consumer. It was created for people very serious about enlightenment and who wanted nothing else but enlightenment. Those still following that path today will get enlightenment, and those who don’t, will not. That’s how the universe works. No pain, no gain.

It is interestnig how everybody will agree that hard work is required to gain anything in life. If you want a toned, healthy and strong body, you work very hard in the gym going 3-5 times a week, count your calories and lead a lifestyle based around your goal. One who puts in this effort reaches their goal.

If you want a top class degree, you work very hard doing reading and studying everyday for hours, making sure your mind is in tip top condition by eating a balanced diet and leading a certain lifestyle. One who puts in this effort reaches their goal.

But when it comes to those desirous of enlightenment/self-god realization, people want double standards. They don’t want to work as hard, they make excuses that whatever they are doing is sufficient and convince themselves with those excuses. A bit of prayer now and again, attending church/temple/mosque now and again, giving to some charity now and again, helping in community projects now and again, and 1-2 hours of yoga asana and meditation or now and again. Will they reach their goal? Has anybody who has not put the dedicated hard effort in ever got their goal?

The answer is a resounding no they will not get anywhere near enlightenment/god realization. Those who did went through a lot of hard work, it did not come easy to them. Countless saints, masters and sages have graced our world and left their mark. Everybody had one thing in common - they worked their asses off to get where they did. Even Buddha, who was already a highly developed soul, still took 10 years of intense, single minded and dedicated practice.

In the next post I will explain why Patanjali’s Raja-Jnana Yoga is the best method to get enlightenment.

Patanjali method is the best method for a fanatical yogi.Patanjali would be crying .at you Surya deva.Swamiji vivekananda to.hahahahaha

Suryadeva, maybe not Kaivalya understood as complete viyoga. And it suits me well that way as I am not interested in escaping (nor in sainthood). I think that this world being a manifestation of Brahman has more sense than that. The denial of the ascetic is not an ideal I share. I am even ready to go to hell in the next life if the Divine “decides” that it is the best for me.

Philippe

[QUOTE=Philippe*;42356] moreover I doubt that one can really be forever completly cut from Prakriti.

Philippe[/QUOTE]

Thats what I thought…just translation play…anyways, the idea is to distinguish, not to separate the two.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;42438] What you observe is always outside of you.

[/QUOTE]

What about:

-dreams
-thoughts
-fantasies

  • wounds and cuts:))

As promised, the explanation on why Patanjali’s jnana path is the best path in attaining the goal of enlightenment. In this case what I mean by best is that it is the fastest route there. It is the ONLY route that will take you there in one lifetime.

I will first begin by dropping an endorsement by Krishna in the Gita who extolls the jnana path as the best and the highest. To those whom consider Krishna a reliable authority this will carry some weight. Others will reject this. Fair enough.

It will be harder to reject for an objective and rational person the other explanation I will give now. Patanjali’s path is a scientific path. It is secular and non secetarian. His descriptions are technical and not religious, using terminology like consciousness, mind, memory, modifications of mind, cause and effect, subject and object, mental associations. This language is as universal as mathematics is to the study of the mind and therefore anybody of any background can follow his path.

As most acadamic experts have noted about Patanjali’s approach, it is thoroughly scientific. It based on a dispassionate observation of the mind and body by using awareness as the means to collect data. This approach has been borrowed from Patanjali by modern scientific disciplines in transpersonal psychology in the subset of it called consciousness studies. Major researchers in this field include Ken Wilber.

Like any scientific experiment controls have to be set in order to isolate the data. The method Patanjali uses for this is a stable posture, prescribed ratios of breathing and an object for meditation to retain through the entire duration. Patanjali gives a list of various possibilities one can use as their meditation object, and even recommends one comes up with their own. However, initially he recommends using ones own breath to get into higher states. As soon as the controls are in place the experiment begins and one starts to watch what is happening in the mind as the meditation continues. Patanjali then describes qualitatively what happens in the first few stages of meditation: The rise and fall of mental phenomenon which he classifies into 5 categories: valid knowledge, invalid knowledge, fantasy, memories and sleep. Then this mental activity gradually begins to lessen as the meditation continues and there are changes in levels of consciousness. He describes these as sensory withdrawal, then sustained concentration of an object, which gets even more intense and various stages of absorption of the object follow. Different objects will produce different results. He also notes the psychic and physical responses that take place depending on the object selected for meditation.

However, Patanjali is only giving a general description of the states one enters into and not an exhaustive one. In actuality there are various grades in between that other consciousness researchers have identified. Like with any scientific experiment there is a prediction based on previous data collection for peer review. Patanjali descriptions are testable by others doing the experiment. Surely enough, there are both ancient and modern peer-reviewed assessments published both in in the Eastern style of journals and Western style of journals, corroborating Patanjali’s general descriptions and thus satisfying the condition of replicability that a scientific experiment must pass. Thus Patanjali’s scientific path is reliable. It is a basic cause and effect path - do this experiment as prescribed and result follows. There is no mystical or religious jargon.

The type of experiment Patanjali is describing is a long term experiment and the duration of it is directly proportional to how much activity is in the mind. He classifies 4 general types: disturbed mind, dull mind, distracted mind and one-pointed mind. The beginner of Yoga begins from the disturbed mind(ravaged by worries, anxieties, fears) Now, we all know how difficult it is to master our own mind. This gives a general idea of how much dedicated practice it takes to attain higher types of mind. The training of the mind is similar to the training of the body. In order to achieive a toned, supple and healthy body starting out from a flabby, inflexible and unhealthy body a lot of training is required. In order to achieive the perfect body the training becomes even more intense. Professional athletes train for hours a day and live highly disciplined lifetyles.

To continue with this analogy, the more one practices the more results begin to show. The muscles are broken down in the gym, and they grow back bigger. The same Patanjali describes for the mind, the previous state it is in, is broken down and the new state grows back more alert and focussed. The focus levels can be even measured today using EEG devices and classified into beta, alpha, delta and theta wave patterns. So Patanjali describes very intense training of the mind through constant practices like observing yama and niyamas in day to day life and regular and long practice of asana, pranayama and meditation. Obviously, those who want to attain the perfect mind, are going to have to intensify their practice even more. To get an idea of roughly what level of practice we are looking at to achieive the goal of Yoga one can look at people like Buddha. It took 10 years of dedicated practice. But that was Buddha who was already born with a high level of development. Others have taken decades of dedicated practice. It is therefore obvious that Yoga is a complete career in itself and requires single minded devotion.

It is a given that if you do the practice you will get the result. But this practice is a very long-term investment of time and energy. It is equally a given that if you do not do the practice and do not invest the time and energy required, you will not get the result.

Finally, I will now submit for the review of the objective reader why the path of Jnana(Patanjalis) is indeed the highest. Other paths you hear about such as Bhakti yoga and Karma yoga appeared much later and gained legitimacy much later than Jnana. They appeared in a time period which is considered to be the spiritual dark ages which started around 5000 years ago and is still going. They were considered necessary for people who simply did not have the discipline to be jnanis. In a way it is a second-rate path for people who are inferior in spiritual evolution.

Bhakti Yoga is basically idol worship and is looked down on by many spiritual and religious traditions in the world. Most people who practice it do so on faith alone, it involved loads of rituals and superstitions, and lot of penance, trials and tribulations, without many results and loads of people lose faith because of the lack of results. It is often practiced in the world surrounded by temptations and world politics. It is difficult to maintain and very few people reach enlightenment on this path. If there is any good that comes from this path is that you may gain some good karma and get a good life in the future, but it does little to transform the mind. In fact it should be said bhakti yoga is the most problematic yoga and is what is so disgusting about religion.

Karma yoga is a grade better and is considered respectable by many spiritual and religious traditions. To dedicate your life to living in the world helping others, doing acts of charity and contributing to social upliftment creates many good, caring and compassionate people who we all love, but it does not necessarily create enlightened minds with sharp and concentrated minds that can penetrate deep into reality and taste the Self. One still lives in the same baseline consciousness level as everybody else. The difference is they are nicer people. But nice does not make enlightened. They too will get good karma and get a good life in the future, but little will be done to transform their mind.

The reason is very clear why bhakti yoga and karma yoga does not transform minds. It is because the mind can only be transformed by entering into deeper levels of consciousness than the normal waking consciousness. It then gradually grows and grows and becomes more focussed and powerful, penetrating deeper into things and witnessing deeper realities. In order to achieive this the condition of sensory-withdrawal must be achieived. It is logical that in order to go deeper into the mind, one must first withdraw themselves from the world and observe their mind exclusively, only then does one start to go deeper. The mind follows a sequence going from most outer to most inner. The most outer level Patanjali calls waking consciousness or gross consciousness(modern: conscious mind). The intermeditate level he calls dream or subtle consciousness(modern: subconscious mind). The most inner level he calls causal consciousness(mondern: unconscious mind) In order to become aware of these higher states then one must move out of waking and go deeper. This is impossible if you are actively engaged in the world. The only time you enter into these deeper states is either when you are lucid dreaming or meditating.

Just as the muscles of the body need a sufficient amount of stress in order to be broken down and caused to grow back stronger, likewise the mind needs serious sit down meditation in order to be broken down and caused to grow back stronger. The body will transform very slowly and only minimally if you do not hit the gym and do the weights, likewise the mind will transform very slowly and only minimally if you do not meditate regularly for long hours a day.

Regular, intense and long meditation practice is absolutely mandatory if your goal is to reach any goal in Yoga. Even the intermediate goals require intense practice. The highest goal of enlightenment requires super-intense practice. But because Patanjali’s jnana path is a science the result is absolutely guaranteed for the one who puts in the effort in terms of time and energy. The question is not will you get enlightenment, the question is how much do you really want it.

I do not know whom you want to convince with this text here but just for details it is sage Vyasa in Yogabhashya who has classified the states of mind not in 4 but 5 categories, it is written in the commentary of the first sutra I:1 : kshipta, mudha, vikshipta, ekagra, niruddha (restricted).

Philippe

P.S. : I admit however that I would have appreciated to read the replies if you had posted this text in a Hindu forum I know.

It is clear I am writing for the objective reader who is ameniable to reason. To whom it may concern. I am making my point very clear as daylight with plenty of explanations, arguments and examples with the path of jnana is the only path that is going to get you enlightenment and why absolute dedication is required to the path to get it.

The best way to sum up my above post is the last bit: The question is not will you get enlightenment, the question is how much do you really want it.

The person who wants the perfect body works hard, with absolute dedication, working out 3-5 times a week in the gym for hours at a time, counting every calorie they consume, watching their diet and lifetstyle.

The person who wants the perfect mind is no different. They work with absolute dedication, meditating everyday for hours at a time, three times daily, other times practicing asanas and pranayama, analysing every thought that occurs, watching their mind constantly and leading a sattvic lifestyle.

It is clear you don’t want it bad enough. Fair enough. I don’t blame you for it. You are not ready. I am ready though to start the path, because I realise there is no higher goal than self-realization in life. You will gain success in whatever worldy goals you have set for yourself, I will gain success in everything by attaining the self. You will remain a mortal reincarnating in samsara. I will become a god. There is a huge difference in the rewards in our goals.

:smiley: It is clear in Patanjali Yoga that videhas aka gods have not reached the goal of Yoga cf. YS I:19 and commentaries from Vyasa, Vacaspati Mishra, Vijnana Bhikshu. I think that you will gain if you learn more about basic points of Patanjali Yoga before lecturing others on Internet though. You have the soul of an achiever, I wish you sincerely all the best for your yogic career.

Philippe, a happy mortal who has to reach the nidra state soon :stuck_out_tongue: