Suryadeva, maybe not Kaivalya understood as complete viyoga. And it suits me well that way as I am not interested in escaping (nor in sainthood). I think that this world being a manifestation of Brahman has more sense than that. The denial of the ascetic is not an ideal I share. I am even ready to go to hell in the next life if the Divine “decides” that it is the best for me.
Philippe
[QUOTE=Philippe*;42356] moreover I doubt that one can really be forever completly cut from Prakriti.
Philippe[/QUOTE]
Thats what I thought…just translation play…anyways, the idea is to distinguish, not to separate the two.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;42438] What you observe is always outside of you.
[/QUOTE]
What about:
-dreams
-thoughts
-fantasies
As promised, the explanation on why Patanjali’s jnana path is the best path in attaining the goal of enlightenment. In this case what I mean by best is that it is the fastest route there. It is the ONLY route that will take you there in one lifetime.
I will first begin by dropping an endorsement by Krishna in the Gita who extolls the jnana path as the best and the highest. To those whom consider Krishna a reliable authority this will carry some weight. Others will reject this. Fair enough.
It will be harder to reject for an objective and rational person the other explanation I will give now. Patanjali’s path is a scientific path. It is secular and non secetarian. His descriptions are technical and not religious, using terminology like consciousness, mind, memory, modifications of mind, cause and effect, subject and object, mental associations. This language is as universal as mathematics is to the study of the mind and therefore anybody of any background can follow his path.
As most acadamic experts have noted about Patanjali’s approach, it is thoroughly scientific. It based on a dispassionate observation of the mind and body by using awareness as the means to collect data. This approach has been borrowed from Patanjali by modern scientific disciplines in transpersonal psychology in the subset of it called consciousness studies. Major researchers in this field include Ken Wilber.
Like any scientific experiment controls have to be set in order to isolate the data. The method Patanjali uses for this is a stable posture, prescribed ratios of breathing and an object for meditation to retain through the entire duration. Patanjali gives a list of various possibilities one can use as their meditation object, and even recommends one comes up with their own. However, initially he recommends using ones own breath to get into higher states. As soon as the controls are in place the experiment begins and one starts to watch what is happening in the mind as the meditation continues. Patanjali then describes qualitatively what happens in the first few stages of meditation: The rise and fall of mental phenomenon which he classifies into 5 categories: valid knowledge, invalid knowledge, fantasy, memories and sleep. Then this mental activity gradually begins to lessen as the meditation continues and there are changes in levels of consciousness. He describes these as sensory withdrawal, then sustained concentration of an object, which gets even more intense and various stages of absorption of the object follow. Different objects will produce different results. He also notes the psychic and physical responses that take place depending on the object selected for meditation.
However, Patanjali is only giving a general description of the states one enters into and not an exhaustive one. In actuality there are various grades in between that other consciousness researchers have identified. Like with any scientific experiment there is a prediction based on previous data collection for peer review. Patanjali descriptions are testable by others doing the experiment. Surely enough, there are both ancient and modern peer-reviewed assessments published both in in the Eastern style of journals and Western style of journals, corroborating Patanjali’s general descriptions and thus satisfying the condition of replicability that a scientific experiment must pass. Thus Patanjali’s scientific path is reliable. It is a basic cause and effect path - do this experiment as prescribed and result follows. There is no mystical or religious jargon.
The type of experiment Patanjali is describing is a long term experiment and the duration of it is directly proportional to how much activity is in the mind. He classifies 4 general types: disturbed mind, dull mind, distracted mind and one-pointed mind. The beginner of Yoga begins from the disturbed mind(ravaged by worries, anxieties, fears) Now, we all know how difficult it is to master our own mind. This gives a general idea of how much dedicated practice it takes to attain higher types of mind. The training of the mind is similar to the training of the body. In order to achieive a toned, supple and healthy body starting out from a flabby, inflexible and unhealthy body a lot of training is required. In order to achieive the perfect body the training becomes even more intense. Professional athletes train for hours a day and live highly disciplined lifetyles.
To continue with this analogy, the more one practices the more results begin to show. The muscles are broken down in the gym, and they grow back bigger. The same Patanjali describes for the mind, the previous state it is in, is broken down and the new state grows back more alert and focussed. The focus levels can be even measured today using EEG devices and classified into beta, alpha, delta and theta wave patterns. So Patanjali describes very intense training of the mind through constant practices like observing yama and niyamas in day to day life and regular and long practice of asana, pranayama and meditation. Obviously, those who want to attain the perfect mind, are going to have to intensify their practice even more. To get an idea of roughly what level of practice we are looking at to achieive the goal of Yoga one can look at people like Buddha. It took 10 years of dedicated practice. But that was Buddha who was already born with a high level of development. Others have taken decades of dedicated practice. It is therefore obvious that Yoga is a complete career in itself and requires single minded devotion.
It is a given that if you do the practice you will get the result. But this practice is a very long-term investment of time and energy. It is equally a given that if you do not do the practice and do not invest the time and energy required, you will not get the result.
Finally, I will now submit for the review of the objective reader why the path of Jnana(Patanjalis) is indeed the highest. Other paths you hear about such as Bhakti yoga and Karma yoga appeared much later and gained legitimacy much later than Jnana. They appeared in a time period which is considered to be the spiritual dark ages which started around 5000 years ago and is still going. They were considered necessary for people who simply did not have the discipline to be jnanis. In a way it is a second-rate path for people who are inferior in spiritual evolution.
Bhakti Yoga is basically idol worship and is looked down on by many spiritual and religious traditions in the world. Most people who practice it do so on faith alone, it involved loads of rituals and superstitions, and lot of penance, trials and tribulations, without many results and loads of people lose faith because of the lack of results. It is often practiced in the world surrounded by temptations and world politics. It is difficult to maintain and very few people reach enlightenment on this path. If there is any good that comes from this path is that you may gain some good karma and get a good life in the future, but it does little to transform the mind. In fact it should be said bhakti yoga is the most problematic yoga and is what is so disgusting about religion.
Karma yoga is a grade better and is considered respectable by many spiritual and religious traditions. To dedicate your life to living in the world helping others, doing acts of charity and contributing to social upliftment creates many good, caring and compassionate people who we all love, but it does not necessarily create enlightened minds with sharp and concentrated minds that can penetrate deep into reality and taste the Self. One still lives in the same baseline consciousness level as everybody else. The difference is they are nicer people. But nice does not make enlightened. They too will get good karma and get a good life in the future, but little will be done to transform their mind.
The reason is very clear why bhakti yoga and karma yoga does not transform minds. It is because the mind can only be transformed by entering into deeper levels of consciousness than the normal waking consciousness. It then gradually grows and grows and becomes more focussed and powerful, penetrating deeper into things and witnessing deeper realities. In order to achieive this the condition of sensory-withdrawal must be achieived. It is logical that in order to go deeper into the mind, one must first withdraw themselves from the world and observe their mind exclusively, only then does one start to go deeper. The mind follows a sequence going from most outer to most inner. The most outer level Patanjali calls waking consciousness or gross consciousness(modern: conscious mind). The intermeditate level he calls dream or subtle consciousness(modern: subconscious mind). The most inner level he calls causal consciousness(mondern: unconscious mind) In order to become aware of these higher states then one must move out of waking and go deeper. This is impossible if you are actively engaged in the world. The only time you enter into these deeper states is either when you are lucid dreaming or meditating.
Just as the muscles of the body need a sufficient amount of stress in order to be broken down and caused to grow back stronger, likewise the mind needs serious sit down meditation in order to be broken down and caused to grow back stronger. The body will transform very slowly and only minimally if you do not hit the gym and do the weights, likewise the mind will transform very slowly and only minimally if you do not meditate regularly for long hours a day.
Regular, intense and long meditation practice is absolutely mandatory if your goal is to reach any goal in Yoga. Even the intermediate goals require intense practice. The highest goal of enlightenment requires super-intense practice. But because Patanjali’s jnana path is a science the result is absolutely guaranteed for the one who puts in the effort in terms of time and energy. The question is not will you get enlightenment, the question is how much do you really want it.
I do not know whom you want to convince with this text here but just for details it is sage Vyasa in Yogabhashya who has classified the states of mind not in 4 but 5 categories, it is written in the commentary of the first sutra I:1 : kshipta, mudha, vikshipta, ekagra, niruddha (restricted).
Philippe
P.S. : I admit however that I would have appreciated to read the replies if you had posted this text in a Hindu forum I know.
It is clear I am writing for the objective reader who is ameniable to reason. To whom it may concern. I am making my point very clear as daylight with plenty of explanations, arguments and examples with the path of jnana is the only path that is going to get you enlightenment and why absolute dedication is required to the path to get it.
The best way to sum up my above post is the last bit: The question is not will you get enlightenment, the question is how much do you really want it.
The person who wants the perfect body works hard, with absolute dedication, working out 3-5 times a week in the gym for hours at a time, counting every calorie they consume, watching their diet and lifetstyle.
The person who wants the perfect mind is no different. They work with absolute dedication, meditating everyday for hours at a time, three times daily, other times practicing asanas and pranayama, analysing every thought that occurs, watching their mind constantly and leading a sattvic lifestyle.
It is clear you don’t want it bad enough. Fair enough. I don’t blame you for it. You are not ready. I am ready though to start the path, because I realise there is no higher goal than self-realization in life. You will gain success in whatever worldy goals you have set for yourself, I will gain success in everything by attaining the self. You will remain a mortal reincarnating in samsara. I will become a god. There is a huge difference in the rewards in our goals.
It is clear in Patanjali Yoga that videhas aka gods have not reached the goal of Yoga cf. YS I:19 and commentaries from Vyasa, Vacaspati Mishra, Vijnana Bhikshu. I think that you will gain if you learn more about basic points of Patanjali Yoga before lecturing others on Internet though. You have the soul of an achiever, I wish you sincerely all the best for your yogic career.
Philippe, a happy mortal who has to reach the nidra state soon 
The videhas are not really “gods” but demigods like angels. The real gods are beings who are self-realised and have imbibed all the powers of god(omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence etc) They are known as avatars and Krishna is said to be an avatar. Once one reaches self-realization they attain the likeness of god. Thus they become gods.
[QUOTE=CityMonk;42806]What about:
-dreams
-thoughts
-fantasies
Yeah outside of you. You are the one that sees the dreams, thoughts, fantasies, and wounds and cuts. They are all things that you get to know about through your means of knowledge. Your 5 senses and your internal sense of the mind.
Yoga is not for the bunny.Is not for the man with fears.sooner gets a criminal to the father than a civic and responsible civic man that is not capable to go against the rules.Escape from the world does not make you a saint neither to keep yourself in the world. Is all about inner reality not about perceptions or postures or lineage or names or how do you see me buddy ?can you tell me ?Exactly You can be a saint here in the city as long as you attain god head.you can be a perfected man like Gandhi for example who was a Karmi Yogi.An yes he was a karmi are you guys more advance than him ? hahahahhaa even when practicing raja yoga .What about warriors that are killers by need do they go to hell ? hahhaahahah exactly so much confusion I thought I was coming here to learn.
So much advance.All I see is the world I I I I will tell you I didnt say .Or my positions is Or Im the messenger .hahhaahhaah I got to laugh more you write more I spot your level .so much ego.so much weak ego.
I have mentioned “lineage” just for the circumstance for Suryadeva, not to show off on the forum. There is no proper lineage in Integral Yoga from Sri Aurobindo for instance. For the technical aspects in a discipline like Classical Yoga considered as a philosophy, art and even therapy, spiritual experience is not enough, having a good technical formation and being in a lifelong learning process matter, especially if one day you want to transmit this kind of Yoga. The best I have found around me was quite traditional and connected with the Indian tradition though I have often met many spiritually advanced people not doing proper yogic exercises. Personally I would not take in this period of my life Yoga lessons with maybe 99% of teachers I have met here in France or even India… For the spiritual side, I have met a lot of people more advanced than monks, ascetics, or people doing hours of practice since decades. I am not especially in awe of Gandhi personally. I completely agree to support the warrior in the battlefield fighting for a right cause. By the way the greatest treatise on Yoga in the Hindu tradition for many people is Bhagavad Gita. Even sannyasis have been on the battlefield at times, let us remember the brave sannyasi revolt in Bengal in 18th century that Bankim Chandra Chatterjee has depicted greatly in the novel Anandamath.
That being said, it would be nice to be here to learn but also to share with peace and respect.
Philippe
Ok fair enough Philippe.Like I told you before Im here learning from all you guys even from Surya Deva wich is not really that advance like he think he is.Even the ants can teach you stuff .And well man Im here keep striking down with the light.I need corrections
with my asanas and pranayamas.by the way .so can you help me out?And one more question what do you think on needing a guru to be able to learn the stuff?thats a general question brother from every beginer.
Hey Philippe what do you think about needing a guru to advance in the road to self realization? Are the books and videos enough ? or do you need to go beging to some guru to get there ? what do you think about ? seriously.
Teitan, I think that it depends on the path you choose. One needs guidance in most of spiritual paths because it is not that easy for most of us. The outer guidance can be manifested by a guru in flesh. The guru can help to get connected to the inner guru. In my sadhana, I have noticed that everything is helping me, all the circumstances without exception. I have always met the people needed to evolve. Though there is often some egotism and tamas in people saying that gurus are not needed, this is true that one can learn a lot without a proper guru in flesh, but a guru in flesh can be needed for some people for some periods. In some spiritual paths, it is mandatory. So I will not generalize. I do not agree with the motto “no pain, no gain” neither, effort is needed but it does not imply pain necessarily. Effort is not required at times too. Moreover I believe in surrender to the Divine, it makes wonder. This is possible to walk on a sunlit path in spirituality, it requires sincerity, but it is sincerity towards God and the yogic ideals.
For asanas, pranayama aso… a guide in flesh is mandatory, books, dvds are not enough, at least at the beginning. An acarya is enough, you do not need someone with the stature or the role of a guru especially if it is not your main path as it could even be confusing.
I use the word guru as a spiritually advanced master, not just in the sense of knowledgeable teacher.
Philippe
[QUOTE=teitan;43095]Hey Philippe what do you think about needing a guru to advance in the road to self realization? Are the books and videos enough ? or do you need to go beging to some guru to get there ? what do you think about ? seriously.[/QUOTE]
Here is another unsolicited advice:
If asana is the first step, guru is needed to demo, review, correct, advice and encourage. You can’t see your back, guru will. If you would also do pranayama, guru is needed even more to explain the subtle processes that can’t be seen with naked eyes. As you advance, there will be trials and errors, then you will need guru to keep you on the track; there will be scriptures to gain wisdom from, you will need guru to interprete; there will be powers, guru will help you avoid temptation to mis-use them; a true guru will also know when to retire from your path to let the inner guru to take over.
HOWEVER, its a two-way relationship. Someone is your guru, because to him/her you are a disciple. Duties and responsibilities of disciple go hand-in-hand. One of them is not to judge a guru with your limited thinking. If so required, you can always give up the discipleship, but there should be no disrespect for guru, for whatever little you have got from him/her requires gratitude.
We also need to remember that guru need not be a ‘bearded person in orange robe’ every time. A book, a situation, a friend, a natural event, a dream- there are many ways. If you are a desperate seeker, guru arrives.
[B]I like this teitan[/B]
Su Dongpo was an avid student of Buddhist teachings. He was quick-witted and humorous; as a Zen Buddhism follower he was very serious and self-disciplined. He often discussed buddhism with his good friend, Zen Master Foyin. The two lived across the river from one another.
Following is an interesting and famous story about him and Zen Master Foyin.
One day, Su Dongpo felt inspired and wrote the following poem:
稽首天中天，
毫光照大千；
八风吹不动，
端坐紫金莲。
I bow my head to the heaven within heaven,
Hairline rays illuminating the universe,
The eight winds cannot move me,
Sitting still upon the purple golden lotus.
The ?eight winds (八风)? in the poem referred to praise (称), ridicule (讥), honor (誉), disgrace (毁), gain (得), loss (失), pleasure (乐) and misery (苦) ? interpersonal forces of the material world that drive and influence the hearts of men. Su Dongpo was saying that he has attained a higher level of spirituality, where these forces no longer affect him.
Impressed by himself, Su Dongpo sent a servant to hand-carry this poem to Fo Yin. He was sure that his friend would be equally impressed. When Fo Yin read the poem, he immediately saw that it was both a tribute to the Buddha and a declaration of spiritual refinement. Smiling, the Zen Master wrote ?fart? on the manuscript and had it returned to Su Dongpo.
Su Dongpo was expecting compliments and a seal of approval. When he saw ?fart? written on the manuscript, he was shocked . He burst into anger: ?How dare he insult me like this? Why that lousy old monk! He?s got a lot of explaining to do!?
Full of indignation, he rushed out of his house and ordered a boat to ferry him to the other shore as quickly as possible. He wanted to find Fo Yin and demand an apology. However, Fo Yin?s door closed. On the door was a piece of paper, for Su Dongpo. The paper had following two lines:
八风吹不动，
一屁弹过江。
The eight winds cannot move me,
One fart blows me across the river.
This stopped Su Dongpo cold. Fo Yin had anticipated this hot-headed visit. Su Dongpo?s anger suddenly drained away as he understood his friend?s meaning. If he really was a man of spiritual refinement,
completely unaffected by the eight winds, then how could he be so easily provoked?
With a few strokes of the pen and minimal effort, Fo Yin showed that Su Dongpo was in fact not as spiritually advanced as he claimed to be. Ashamed but wiser, Su Dongpo departed quietly.
This event proved to be a turning point in Su Dongpo?s spiritual development. From that point on, he became a man of humility, and not merely someone who boasted of possessing the virtue.
hahahahahaha.great Kareng I love your parabola .But I suppose that you used it to make the point about Surya deva and him been arrogant.Cause I never pose as a teacher I speak openly and honestly what little I know.And I been asking for help since I got here but in my way I detected some funny messengers (Surya Deva saying Im the messenger etc).Im only someone looking for results.And yes I got some work under my belt.but honestly I feel like the sky is the limit and that I dont know enough but at least I know enough to not let my self get caught up in certain seudomistic bla bla bla.Or philosophical per say.I dont let myself be fool by some posers.I been expressing that theory does not make you better than a monkey so words dont impress me.Yoga is about been practical about the power of manifest some control ,that I know.
By the way who knows how can I get a great teacher of raja yoga here in san diego california? someone that doe not charge money.Someone that is not a control freak either.To me if you ask for money in favor for such of spiritual favors you are not detached if you are a control freak the same you are not good enough etc.
I hope you find the foroum helpful in whatever small or big way perhaps. You sound hungry or thirsty. That is good combined with a bit of knowledge…
I’m with you on the money comment.Some true gurus or so i have read at least anecdotally i think might not officially request money , donations maybe gladly accepted. But no official transactions. Something to do with there being a contradiction present, a conflict,possibly. Just remember reading the odd anecdote. I’m not up on how “gurus” operate. I suspect there are many in India based on an old guidebook i’ve got.Never been to India for that purpose.A Himlayan guru sounds like a romantic idea but you do have rishikesh and likely other places so it is quite possible. I’ve got this guidebook call Meeting the master by MuzMuRray , although it was published a few decades ago it’s got a number of spiritual teachers listed in it.Barely leafed through it.Lists many ashrams in Mother India.
I think these ashrams are respected like in Hindu society, have a certain status and pay for themselves and try to be self-sufficent commune-type places.They may have their own gardens, projects etc or some of them.I’ve never stayed in ashram or spiritual community but it prob. worth checking out.I think they may run to a schedule - eaarly moring sadhana,karma yoga, evening sdhana,lights out early for e.g.Someone else might be able to share an experience in this regard here.
Raja Yoga ?
.From San Diego to Scotland.