[QUOTE=oak333;21476]You can learn the commandments in many ways, eg TV, the movie 10
commandments, newspapers, talking with friends etc,[/QUOTE]
and where do you think these other means got the commandments from?
[QUOTE=jlg;21493]and where do you think these other means got the commandments from?[/QUOTE]
Obviously the other means got the commandments from the Bible or other religious writings, based on the Bible.
What I meant though was simply that you do not have to read religious books to learn the 10 commandments. No further meanings.
[QUOTE=Techne;21482]oak333 – what’s the difference between ‘learning in many ways’ and making it up yourself without external reference (if that were possible)?
Or, what’s the difference between ‘learning in many ways’, which must include personal discernment on which ways to learn from and which to ignore, and using that same discernment to choose one “official” religion?
Just curious.[/QUOTE]
My message was quite simple actually: you do not have to read the Bible or other religious books to learn the 10 commandments. They are all over the place: movies, friends, TV, etc.
The ten commandments of the judeo-christian tradition are very interesting.
To know about their existence, to know their text, and permeating ithem just superficially can create the illusion that we know them. But as for anything in life, there is almost a measurless depth we can dig, if we give them the proper attention.
Let’s give them some:
- [B]I am the Lord your God[/B] - this targets a constant remembrence of God. “I am who brought you out of Egypt” says: I am not a theoretic God, an imagination, a man created image - I am the very one whose actions you and your fathers have witnessed and what you remember. This formulation is not arbitrary. The memory running in the blood through generations was much stronger among people who were living in close blood relationships, like the hebrews. Today few realize that memory, ego and blood are related, because today we have a materialistic perception of this faculty. Nevertheless, this is true, so the first commandment for a hebrew did not require any proof, because it was a reminder of a fact he already knew.
Today it is hard to imagine that memory can go back through the bloodline, but this was the case. When it is said that Noah lived 950 years, it is actually true … but not in his physical vehicle, but his memory was a living expereince in the souls of his descendants for this long. Not like when we remember someone dear, no, but in a more peculiar way. Think of a man’s persona as the sum of his expereinces. These experiences were carried through the unmixed blood, through that many generations. Thus, Noah was actually living on in his descendents, and when this living presence has ended, than they said, that he died. Of course today we remember Noah, too but only in our minds. But when he was “alive”, he was not a simple memory, but as a guiding presence in one’s soul, because the very expereinces Noah had, were percieved-remebered trhough the same blood, like their own. His descendents did not need stories about Noah … because he was a living presence in them.
In the light of this, we can understand that the first commandment what might appear a gratuitous statement today, was actually calling upon the living memory as inner factual expereince of the actions of God.
- [B]You shall have no other gods before me[/B]
Now, this again is very interesting. God does not say that there are no other gods, no, but he says: you should not have them before me. Why ? it follows in the next one.
- [B]You shall not make for yourself an idol[/B]
Why not to have idols ? Because God is not of this world, he cannot be pictured, imagined and described, and this is exactly what happens when we create idols. God wants to make sure that we realize that He is not Whom we can take lightly, know, and have deals with. You cannot please Me by making an idol representing Me and paying your respects.
This would shortcircuit the path to Him, losing the real God for His image.
Also this explains why we should not have other gods before Him. There are other gods, but they are only gods with a little g. What does this mean ? That there is only one supreme being, originator of everything, and that is called God. Among His creation there are beings higher than humans, angels, archangels, archai, kyriotetes, dynamis, thrones, and any of these, even an angel might appear as God to us. Isn’t it true that any time an angel appears in the Bible, the human being who meets it, falls to the ground trembling, to worship the angel ? It is because when you have the expereince of a higher being, it is clear that you are smaller, lesser, weaker, less knowledgable, less wise, less powerful. And what are the angles saying in these cases ? Do not worship me, but worship God.
The God of commandments says directly, that while you might expereince and picture these beings, do not mistake them for Me. I am not them, but more.
- [B]You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God[/B]
Because you cannot picture Me, imagine Me, know Me, all you have is this name for me, God. Thus, do not slender it because for you it represents the holy of holies, do not use it in inappropriate ways. This can be today percieved as exigency in our spiritual path. One must believe in God, spirit, what/Who transcends this world, and keep this belief pure, free from all the machinations possible through human language and mind.
- [B]Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy[/B]
This again is connected to those before. Because I am not of this world, says God, you cannot meet Me in this world, and if you only live in this world, than we can never meet. Thus, have a day, when you cease to live in this world, apart from it’s many tasks, and spend it searching for me.
I have presented the firts few, what are not actually the first five, for example, in the catholic church, the first three of this list are treated as one. I tried to show that indeed the commandments are organically linked on many levels, and the more deeper we dig into them and know about hebrews, their tradition, the more we come closer to an understanding what is not that alien to eastern philospohies, traditions, or from any reasonable man.
I think even Bentinho would agree that this interpretation of the firts commandments is not that different from what he’s teaching. If we just have the patience to listen to everybody, and refuse to see in others ignorants, fools, simpletons, if instead of sperataing us from others, we embrace all, than there is great room for growth in our soul’s richness. Yoga means also union, uniting. If we just apply this principle everywhere, if we try to see how apparently conflicting things, facts, thoughts can be reconciled, than we are true yogis. It is not easy … but is it realistic to expect it to be ?
Hey Hubert,
Yes I think you did a good job explaining them. Great post altogether. I would say I agree with you on most points, though perhaps with some differences in accents. But I deffinately think you are seeing things clearly. Not that I am to determine that necessarily, but in my eyes you are seeing through most of the nonsense. And nonsense is always the part created or added by humans.
Let me give you another version of these first 4, which will probably sound similar to yours, but perhaps not. I do not know yet what I will write 10 seconds from now, so we’ll see. Note that I am not in any way familiar with these commandmends so I will just read them and share what I feel is the purest meaning:
- [B]I am the Lord your God[/B]
I feel this is the most significant one. Since it is the first, it often means it outlines the very essence. The rest of spiritual scriptures is mostly for comforting purposes or to outline a path towards that first statement. Think about the sutra’s: The first one states what we are about to read: 1: Now yoga starts, then no. 2 explains what yoga is: Yoga is … and 3 explains the experience of yoga. All the rest of the sutra’s, in my opinion, are additional in nature. They are to further outline the way to the essence.
This first commandment to me says simply “I am.” It uses I Am for a reason. Even within this one sentence the essence comes first, followed by further explanation. This is god saying: I am presence, beingness, You are me, I am yours. Nothing else.
Like supposedly god said to Moses: “I Am that I Am” which tells him not so much the name of god, but the very practice of being god. He does not tell him his name, for he has no name. He simply tells him what he is. He is I am ness. I am that I am. I am everything, and again the sentence starts with I am. We know this in yoga as Asmita. But it goes beyond asmita Samadhi. It is the beginning and the end. “I am” is all there is and as a practice it is all we need. If we just stick to this one, no other gods, no idols, no names can be abused and misinterpreted. Basically: no religion would arise.
- [B]You shall have no other gods before me[/B]
Simple and pure. Don’t make me into something. people have all kinds of gods. I do not belief god says here that there are other gods that actually exist. The angels and such you spoke about are not other gods. They are mostly our projection. Our projection, our minds, is what creates all the gods. Even a statue or a ritual becomes our god if we are not careful.
Thus god says simply this: “Don’t create gods, don’t follow your gods, I am all there is.” Or in other words: ‘I am’ is all there is.
The gods in our minds, our mental concept of god is a poor god. It is a fictional god. But that is the only way most of us think to know him. Thus they create traditions, rituals, worshipping etc. These projections is what god means by ‘other gods’.
Then there is another significant point in this sentence. The word 'before.'
Basically he says Know me before allowing your mind to wander anywhere else. Do not seek treasures and gods first and then me, nor try to find me through these steps, paths or gods. Do not worship and perform traditions for god first, but have me first, know me first, and the rest is just the rest. Much like Jesus said: “Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and everything else will be added unto you.”
This commandment simply prioritizes ‘I Am’ before anything else. To avoid confusion, attachment and false ideology. A zen equivalent: “When you meet the buddha on your path, kill him immediately.” Because, like you yourself said, we create all kinds of gods and start worshipping the image instead of the real thing.
- [B]You shall not make for yourself an idol[/B]
I pretty much explained this above. God tells us not to subject ourselves to anything. Note that anything can become an idol. A person, a statue, a religion, yoga, the sutra’s, books, teachings, the ten commandments etc. Idolizing does not depend on the object, it is a state of being. All that we touch turns into a copy, a concept. Simply because we do not know our I Am; God.
Before, beyond anything else: “I Am.” Period. Do not stray, do not waver.
- [B]You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God[/B]
If one gets to the stage of using his name wrongly, one has already forgot the second and third commandment. Or not understood them correctly.
You see, you can only start a war with someone, start a fight, a conflict, speak and share delusions etc. if you have a name for god. If you have been fooled by your mind’s god, which is the poor god, you can use that in the wrong ways. You can start to fight for it because you have start to idolize a concept in your head. A religion was born out of your mind’s copy of god. Now you use his name in the wrong ways.
[B]Summary:[/B]
Basically these first four phrases of god tell us:
1: ‘I Am’ God
2: Do not turn ‘I AM’ into a concept
3: Do not subject yourself to, or be fooled by such concepts
4: Do not use your subjectivity towards such concepts (in progressive ways)
Always stick to the first, most basic expression of unity, without conceptualizing it. All the rest just keep you stuck.
B.
In my opinion, art, music, yoga, charity work can be religious in every sense of the word, a meaningful alternative to traditional religion that generates moral perspectives.
A practice that generates moral perspectives. That’s the best broad definition of ‘religion’ I have ever seen. Thank you.
Thanks Maranatha,
I think the main function of a religion is giving meaning and purpose to people’s lives, comfort people in difficult times… Art , music, yoga,… works in similar way…
Ah, also shared religion binds people closely together