Yep that is a fair point. The gunas are never working in isolation, so they are all present in all states in various combinations, only one can be preponderant over the others.
Sadness and sorrow are the emotional state corresponding to the cognitive state of dullness/bewilderment/delusion. Hence why in cases of clinical depression the emotional state of sorrow and sadness is also associated with a cognitive state of dullness.
Therefore one should go beyond the three gunas and attain immortality and freedom from birth, death, old age and sorrow.
~Gita.
This may help. A few things one can add to this good discussion. It is right, trigger for happiness can be an object. But it can be external as well as internal. You can be happy sipping coffee at Starbucks or can be equally happy remembering it as image(s). In this there seems to be no distinction in joy and happiness, except that joy is a feeling (instinctive) that brings about a mind-state of happiness.
It is true that no single guna works in isolation. They come across as a composite of sattva, the revealer, rajas, the mobile and tamas, the deceptive. At any given in time one is pre-dominant. But, more interestingly, guna, as the latent energy doesn’t spring from a perceived object on its own volition. It is invited that way by the guna of the perceiver. That shapes what we see in terms of what we want to and able to see.
This interactive mode makes the same object a source of joy for some and a reason for sorrow for others.
I’m sorry but I don’t think that’s an accurate representation of the theory. The gunas are conceived as forming the intrinsic nature of objects, whether or not we perceive them correctly. In the more ancient formulation of the theory, gunas were conceived as psychic properties. This can be found in the Gita and elsewhere. In the later formulation, gunas were conceived as also having cosmic properties, having a role as operational forces in the evolution of nature. The latter is a little harder to sustain in this age of scientific knowledge. But in the realm of psychic properties it’s easier to see and seems useful to me, although not always correctly understood.
[QUOTE=Asuri;73214]What makes you think I haven’t? If you have a difference of opinion, you should elaborate a little.[/QUOTE]
my apologies, i did not mean to come off as a smart aleck. these forums are great for discussing issues or questions that come up in our personal practices, i’ve definitely benefited from information and responses on here. the initial post in this thread just reminded me of arjuna asking krishna questions in the gita, therefore why not refer to ancient spiritual wisdom rather than some dude on the internets opinion? but maybe the poster was just looking for different opinions, i don’t know. either way, if one is pondering the initial question, the gita is a great place to start.
In Samkhya -Yoga all matter is made of the gunas: suns, planets, trees, stones, atoms, sense organs, ego, intellect - everything. There is only one substance that is not made of the gunas and that is consciousness. Simply put: there is consciousness and there is matter.
Matter exists in two levels: Manifest and Unmanifest and fundamental (moolaprakriti) At the manifest level matter seems to be made up of many separate things(5 physical elements, 5 subtle elements, 5 sense organs, 5 motor organs, motor mind, ego, intellect) However, at the fundamental level matter is all just one uniform substance which is undergoing constant guna interactions.
This means all matter in the universe is actually interconnected at the fundamental level. If something happens to any matter anywhere in the universe, the gunas have to resolve themselves. This is similar to what in quantum theory what is called the principle of quantum entanglement, that somehow at the level of the quantum matter is just one continuous wave distributed across the universe. Hence all matter is fundamentally interconnected.
It is based on this guna theory that all matter is fundamentally interconnected the medical system of Ayurveda works. As the human body is made of gunas, so is food, minerals, climates, seasons. If the gunas of the human body are out of balance, then they can be bought into balance with external things. In Ayurveda the guna theory is developed further to create the tridosha theory, the three principle regulating systems of the human body: vatta, pitta and kapha. External things we consume through our senses have a direct effect on the doshas e.g., too much cold will aggrevate vata. A disease like anxiety which is considered vata-dosha will thus be made worse by exposure to cold environments.
The correspondence between mental states and physical states works pretty much in the same way. They are both made of gunas and by the mixture of the gunas of physical objects with the gunas of the mind certain effects are brought about e.g. listening to heavy rock music which is tamasic by a sattvic mind will produce great disturbance and discomfort because of the dissimilar nature; but listening to heavy rock music by somebody who has a tamasic mind will not produce as much disturbance and discomfort, because they are similar nature. This is why it is found that people who listen to rock music are mostly depressive or suicidal people. It is very rare for a calm and spiritual person to listen to music like this. While a sattvic mind may experience joy at listening to soothing meditative music, a tamasic music may find the same music boring and dull.
The above reason also explains why some people love eating light vegetarian food and others like eating heavy non-vegetarian food. A non-veggie given vegetarian food may find the food boring and stale and a vegetarian given non-vegetarian may find it stupefying and depressing. Some animals are naturally carnivores and could not survive by eating vegetarian food, because it is fundamentally at odds with their nature; vis versa with herbivores.
Knowing these principles one can identify whether their current nature is more sattvic, rajasic or tamasic. If one derives happiness from eating chocolate, coffee, hot spices, and working hard one, partying they are probably rajasic. If one derives their happiness from eating light fruit and veg, study and yoga and meditation they are probably sattvic. If one derives their happiness from alcohol, nicotine, drugs, lazy work/feeding of benefits, listening punk/rock and rap, they are probably more tamasic.
Defining gunas.
Gunas are very difficult to define, because they are completely abstract entities. They comprise and are identical to the field of matter, but they are completely invisible and imperceptible. There are various interpretations offered for what they are by Samkhya scholars: they are string like entities which vibrate; they are three fundamental forces; they are three energies.
The gunas exist at the level of fundamental matter(moolaprakrti) and it is their vibrations which are producing all manifest matter(vyakta) The difficulty in actually representing what the gunas is very similar to the difficult of quantum physics is identifying what quantum is. Like Samkhya theory, quantum theory also divides matter into two states: particle-matter and wave-matter. Particle matter is specific, visible, differentiated, whereas wave-matter is uniform, undifferentiated and invisible. Somehow, wave matter collapses and becomes particle matter. The strongest theory for why this collapse takes place is attributed to a conscious observer! Similarly, in Samkhya manifest matter is specific, visible and differentiated, and unmanifest matter is uniform, undifferentiated and invisible. The unmanifest matter collapses when it is observed.
What has really puzzled physicists what exactly is this quantum wave matter, what does it look like, is it made of particles or is it a continuous something. Like Samkhya they represents fundamental matter as the vibrations of the three gunas, quantum physicists represent quantum matter as a mathematical wavefunction. Whereas classical physicists represent matter as unified field made of up three fundamental forces, known as the Standard model. Both models are fundamentally opposed to one another.
Now, a new theory has emerged called string theory which attempts to reconcile the Standard model with the quantum model by positing the existence of quantum strings. These are invisible strings which are vibrating in many dimensions, whose effects are perceived as matter in different dimensions. In the 3D dimension of space we perceive the effects as visible physical matter. In higher dimensions matter has a completely different form, which is impossible to visualize as we are limited to only a 3D view of the universe. The best attempt to conceptualize the higher dimensions is using pure mathematics. The co-founder of string theory Michio Kaku even conceptualizes these higher dimensions as being spiritual dimensions.
The Samkhya also consider the universe to be existing at various levels: physical, subtle and causal. The physical is our world of 3D space, the subtle is the world of mind and causal is where the gunas are vibrating and producing the entire universe. It is striking then just how similar the model of the universe in modern physics is to Samkhya’s model, and this definitely cannot be a coincidence.
There are some interesting similarities between guna theory and modern science, but they start to break down under close scrutiny. For example, originally guna theory contained the ‘objects of the senses’. OK, that’s fair enough. Then the objects of the senses became the ‘tan matras’, and there are various interpretations of what that means. Then you get to the evolutionary theory where the gross elements evolve from the tan matras, ie space is composed of sound, air is composed of sound and touch, fire is composed of sound, touch, and form, etc. So the theory does not really hold up completely, and it’s a huge stretch of the imagination to compare it to quantum physics.
Indeed, Samkhya-Yoga is not identical to quantum physics, because they are based on a completely different approach. Quantum physics is based on measurement and analysis of reality by doing physical experiments and then formally explaining that using mathematics. Quantum physics is also a more deeper and vigorous study into matter. Samkhya, on the other hand is a experiential based analysis of reality which is then rationally explained using reasoning.
Samkhya-Yoga rather than beginning by analysing matter to see what the world is made of, begin by analyzing experience to show what our world of experience is made of. If now we look at the Samkhya categories we can see why they enumerate these categories as such.
Observation shows us that all information comes to us via our senses, of which there are 5 major senses: ears, skin, eyes, tongue and nose. They each receive a particular category of data: ears receive sound, skin receives touch, eyes receive colour, tongue receives taste and nose receives smell. Thus the essential sensory elements are known tanmatras. The source from which the data is being received are gross and tangible physical elements and are known as the bhuttas.
Then analysis will show that the bhutas have specific properties. Earth, received by the nose as smell has all 5 properties of mass and weight, liquidity, form, movement and vibration. Water, received by the tongue as taste has 4 properties of liquidity, form, movement, vibration. Light, received by the eyes as colour, has 3 properties of form, movement and vibration. Wind, received by the skin as touch has has 2 properties of movement and vibration. Ether, received by the ears as sound waves, only has 1 property of vibration.
Thus the sequence of how the elements come into being is inferred in this order from most subtle to gross: sound waves, winds/forces, light, fluidity and solid matter. This is of course near identical to how modern physics understands how matter comes into being. It begins as a wave, then next up we have fundamental forces like gravity, then photons, then electrons etc and finally atoms. It is interesting to note even in Samkhya matter begins as a wave before it becomes a particle and attains mass. Again, this cannot be a coincidence.
The next categories Samkhya deals with are mental categories: manas, ahamkara and intellect, which are collectively known as the instrument of cognition and inner instrument(anthakarana) Samkhya observes there is a faculty within us which processes data, makes judgements and personalizes the world and hence posit the existence of mind. It also posits the existence of a subtle body as the framework that holds these entities.
Then using inference Samkhya concludes that the mind and physical matter are both possessed of the properties of the gunas i.e., they are the same continuum of matter. It thus declares that it is the mental which produces the physical or the physical is just a more gross manifestation of the mental. The mental and the physical are in an interactive relationship.
Hence Samkhya declares there are three levels or dimensions of matter: There is the physical consisting of the physical elements; the subtle consisting of the subtle elements, senses and mind. The final dimension of matter, the causal, is inferred through several arguments that there must be a fundamental, undifferentiated, imperceptible state where the gunas are vibrating, which is producing all other dimensions of matter.
In the end though Samkhya and Modern physics take an entirely different approach of study of reality, they arrive surprisingly at similar conclusions of how reality is constituted. Thus this goes to show that in order to study reality the yogi is just as much equipped as a physicist in working it all out.
The truths of quantum theory are demonstrated through physical technologies like lasers and microchips. In like manner the truths of Samkhya theory are demonstrated though mental technologies like Yoga. For the yogi the Samkhya categories are experienced realities e.g. the subtle body, the 5 pranas, the structures of the mind, which they directly play with using tools like asanas, mudras, bandhas, kriyas, pranayama, meditation etc
Yes we know that this is your theory of the world. Unfortunately it involves some wishful thinking, and you have to massage both theories a little to make them fit together. I’m not going to debate specifics, as we’ve already been through enough incessant arguments. As intriguing as it is, Samkhya philosophy is an analysis of human experience only, and it is an error to try to raise it to the level of physical science. Quantum physics is a physical science only, but it is an exact science with an advanced technology, something that Samkhya never developed. The similarity to Samkhya involves aspects that are still theoretical and unproven, which you have presented here as fact. Likewise string theory is unproven and considered to be untestable so it has no utility as science.
The main reason for studying Samkhya philosophy is that the metaphysics of the system are pervasive in Indian philosophy, so an understanding of it is necessary to understand Indian philosophy in general, and yoga philosophy in particular. What we are not seeing here is the critical thinking that is necessary to figure out how much of it can still be applied as a personal philosophy in this day and age. It’s understandable that some of these ancient ideas may have contributed to some of the theoretical physics that we have today, but let’s not get carried away.
I respectfully disagree. I don’t think this it is wishful thinking, because there is not much I need to do to show the similarities. I simply need to cite some postulates of the Samkhya theories and modern physical theories, and then anybody can easily see the similarities are strong.
You state that quantum physics deals with the study of matter, and Samkhya deals with the study of human experience. This is clearly a wrong statement and I I think you have artificially compartmentalized Samkhya strictly into the domain of experience, when the Samkhya itself makes no such demarcation(this is why I accuse you of mistaking Samkhya with Cartesian dualism) and clearly states one of its subject of study is matter, in fact most of the Samkhya philosophy deals with matter, what it consists of, how it evolves. Here is your proof:
[i]3. There is an ultimate fundamental state of matter from which all manifestation arises.
This fundamental state of matter cannot be seen because it is too subtle, and not because it does not exist. Its existence is known from the fact of material things, some which are like and different from the fundamental state
They are non-separate from everything else, never operate in isolation.
It is objective, independent of ideas, apprehended by the senses. It is common/public, all apprehend it alike. It is unintelligent/non sentient, simpy a machine like process.
Consciousness is the opposite of this.[/i]
Samkhya deals with both matter and consciousness, but most of its study is preoccupied with matter and various types of matter there are: gross matter, subtle matter and causal matter, which is turn can be subdivided into the physical elements, the sensory and mental elements and the gunas.
Where does Samkhya say anything about its subject of study only being human experience? Where did you get this from? Samkhya makes it very clear its subject of study is matter and consciousness. This a bit of a no brainer because this is exactly the philosophy Samkhya is famous for: matter and consciousness dualism. It says nothing about the study of only human experience, in fact its subject matter is entire evolution of the cosmos:
[i]52. There is a dual subjective and objective evolution because they mutually serve one another. Without the subjective dispositions there would be no evolution of the objective and vis versa, thus both proceed simultaneously out of common purpose. The consciousness requires objects of experience in the objective, these in turn produce the dispositions for its subjective evolution, which i turn rouse objective evolution to produce new experiences for it.
Higher dimensional planes are populated by 8 kinds of entities
Lower dimensional planes are populated by various kinds of animals
Intermediate dimensional planes are populated by humans, which are of one kind.
It would seem to me you are really strongly misinterpreting Samkhya to be only dealing with human subjective experience - Samkhya deals with the entire world of experience both subjective and objective. In fact ultimately in Samkhya the subjective and objective distinction collapses at the level of fundamental matter, in fact even before fundamental matter at the level of mahat. It is the ahamkara which creates this artificial split. Prior to that matter is unmanifest, undifferentiated and uniform.
Samkhya ultimately says all of reality is one undifferentiated whole with no compartments. It is one seamless field of reality. This undifferentiated whole appears to collapse into manifest matter(comprising all kinds of matter) when consciousness comes into association with this fundamental matter.
Now let us cite some the postulates of Samkhya an modern physical theories side by side
Quantum theory says there is a fundametal level of matter known as quantum which is too subtle to be detected, but which definitely exists. This quantum state of matter is uniform, undifferentiated, unmanifest and all-pervading. In quantum language it is superpositioned and potential.
Quantum theory says that all manifest matter is particular, specific, measurable, divisible and temporal.
Quantum theory, which struggles with this idea, accepts the Copenhagen interpretation that the quantum state is collapsed by a conscious observer.
String theory says that matter is really made up of infinitesimal vibrating quantum strings and the vibrations produce a multidimensional world consisting of 10, 11 or more dimensions. At higher vibrations it is believed that higher dimensional lifeforms could exist, because in theory nothing is stopping this possibility from happening.
I personally think one would have to be blind, or choose to be blind, not to see the striking similarity. In fact if Asuri you still don’t see it, I would really be interested in the opinion of other people.
[QUOTE=bolno;73178]The difference between joy and happiness?[/QUOTE]
Happiness is a state of being. Some are happy when who they are is who they want to be. When there is balance between endo and exo system. Joy is what we feel when happy, but can be experienced outside of happiness as well.