Yoga and Sex vs Celibacy

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#181

Amir,
You surprise me to be a saint and a commoner at the same time.

Perhaps you have to have another depression to come to realise the realities of life.

Nature leaves its footprints for us to decode
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When on the last act of sex, ejaculation, one experiences the feeling of egolessness and timelessness. Telling us mortals that what it would be like to have a perpetual bliss, if you are one with Him. And we want to try it again and again.
One can train his mind against these cardinal desires
That’s yoga is all about?

#182

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;63765]Anand,

“Being celibate refers to the physical/ external aspect and being free from desire is the mental/ inner aspect”

I am aware of that. But the question is, is it possible to be celibate and yet not free of sexual desire ? If it is possible, then being celibate is not a solution. Maybe it can be helpful in some ways to work towards a solution. But in itself, it is not a solution. The fact is that to be celibate as a permanent way of life is dangerous. Temporarily, it can be very useful. But permanently, very dangerous. Because nature has not intended man to be celibate. If nature has intended man to be celibate, then this would be a great threat to the survival of the species. To ensure the survival of the species, nature has not created man to be celibate. If you really realize this, then you will also realize that if you are living life as a permanent celibate, then you are doing something which is fundamentally against the nature of the body.[/QUOTE]
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Well amir if a seeker of truth always goes the nature way then i fear he is never going to attain salvation. And its the same with celibacy. Sexual desire are one of the strongest desire that bind human beings and act as a perfect fuel to satisfy the never satisfying ego. Thats why muladhar and swadhisthan chakra act as the major hinderance in the rising of kundalini. And in order to fuel this kundalini conversion of material sexual desire into divine sexual union, and the essence of semen which plays its own vital role in the process, play very important subtle roles. And this is where celibacy in its full fledged form plays its part “till the divine union of extreme centres is established.” You can’t move on with celibacy for some time and then enjoy sexual lust physically “and” mentally and so on. Its like climbing a rope to a particular point then moving down to the base and continue this play reaching nowhere but stuck in between. To climb the ladder of spirituality celibacy is must. Intercourse for the purpose of creation stands apart and a question of choice for a spiritual aspirant. And after a point of divine union the question of celibacy for the native holds no ground,he has transcended the path and free from nature’s control which he knows from the depth of soul.

#183

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;63765]Anand,
To ensure the survival of the species, nature has not created man to be celibate. If you really realize this, then you will also realize that if you are living life as a permanent celibate, then you are doing something which is fundamentally against the nature of the body.[/QUOTE]

Is yoga all about body and only about body? Your posts always contradict each other :slight_smile:

An aspirant in the western world reads and understands about “Sanathana Dharma” from books and twisted interpretations, with a frame of mind that is not born and grown in/with “Shanathana Dharma”. Naturally, he/she will see everything about Yoga objective, but not subjective.

#184

“But the question is, is it possible to be celibate and yet not free of sexual desire ?”

Yes. Most (all?) celibates will have sexual desire. Sexual desire is a fundamental, evolutionary aspect of humans and animals.

People choose celibacy for various reasons. Some don’t choose it at all but it is forced upon them.

#185

Sahasrara,

"Is yoga all about body and only about body? Your posts always contradict each other "

No, but if you cannot even be in tune with the nature of the body, there is very little possibility of being in communion with your own true nature - of which the body is an expression of. The body strives hard to be in tune with nature - it has a certain advantage which the mind does not. If the mind had that same tendency, then by now, everybody would have already come to their enlightenment. The body has never been a problem, most of the problems of man’s sufferings are created at the level of the mind.

#186

Spirit,

"then i fear he is never going to attain salvation. "

Who has put this idea in your mind that man needs to be saved ?

“Sexual desire are one of the strongest desire that bind human beings and act as a perfect fuel to satisfy the never satisfying ego”

If you are living out of unconsciousness, then most of your desires are going to function in that way. But if you are living out of awareness, then what was once poison has now become medicine.

"Thats why muladhar and swadhisthan chakra act as the major hinderance in the rising of kundalini. "

I promise you that without the muladhara or swaddisthana, there would be no such thing as Kundalini arising.

“And in order to fuel this kundalini conversion of material sexual desire into divine sexual union”

If everything in existence is divine, then what are you doing dividing between what is “material” and what is “spiritual”. In all directions - the same serpent swallows it’s own tail.

"And this is where celibacy in its full fledged form plays its part “till the divine union of extreme centres is established.”

Celibacy is useful, not essential.

“To climb the ladder of spirituality celibacy is must”

As far as the methods towards awakening are concerned, there are no absolutes, only relative skillful means.

“he has transcended the path and free from nature’s control which he knows from the depth of soul”

Nature has never been “controlling” you. It is because you are not in tune with existence, out of one’s own unawareness, that most of man’s sufferings have been created. This is a situation which has been created by nothing else other than one’s own hands. And unless a human being takes complete responsibility for his way of being, then he has not yet realized that the same sword which saves the man is the same sword which kills the man.

#187

prasad,

"One can train his mind against these cardinal desires
That’s yoga is all about? "

Is there a difference between training against something, and understanding it ? What is needed is not to control the mind, what is needed is to liberate the mind. And for that - what is needed is understanding, what is needed is insight. You can have tremendous control, but without even a drop of insight. Control by itself is just mechanical. Insight is spontaneous, it has a living flame of life in it. There are some yogis who are very controlled, but have remained in the darkness of their ignorance because they did not come into contact with even a spark of insight. What is needed is not to train the mind for or against anything. That is why Patanjali has said that both attraction and aversion are amongst the most blinding forces for one’s awareness. If you are to have an understanding into anything - what is needed is to be able to observe things as they are in the present, without becoming identified with anything which may arise in one’s experience. If sexual desire arises, yes, you can try and repress it through control. But repression through control is not going to help you to understand it - it will only give you the illusion that you have become liberated from it. Control by nature means restriction, and insight is not something that can happen through control alone. That is why most who have been struck with insight are familiar with it - that it always arrives when you are least expecting it.

#188

Anand,

“A yogi need not worry about the propagation of the species”

It is not a question of propogation of the species. If you cannot even be integrated with the ways of your own body, there is very little possibility of your being integrated at the level of the mind. In fact - the mind and body are not separate from each other. If one change happens on one level, another change happens on another level - they are two aspects of the same thing. But this obsession with celibacy has come into being because of an attachment to a certain belief system. Because there have been belief systems which have been saying that the body by nature is the cause of all of man’s sufferings. It is because of the body - that you are born with all kinds of limitations. That is why, the body is to be conquered and controlled, until it can become impregnated by a higher energy. But the fact is that all of man’s sufferings are created at the level of the mind - the body is not a hindrance.

“which had produced these lower products, which were the cause of bondage.”

By saying this, you are stating precisely the same thing - that because of “lower products” of nature, you are suffering. The problem is simply that man is asleep, that he has been living out of unconsciousness. It is a situation which is entirely self-created. Nature is doing just fine by itself - it does not need any improvement. Nothing needs to be added from it, nothing needs to be subtracted from it - things as they are are precisely as they should be.

#189

But this obsession with celibacy has come into being because of an attachment to a certain belief system.

Dear friend:

Referring to your post no.189:

Well, all I can say about the above thought is that one should also not be obsessed with not being obsessed!

But seriously, referring to your words below:

If you cannot even be integrated with the ways of your own body, there is very little possibility of your being integrated at the level of the mind. In fact - the mind and body are not separate from each other. If one change happens on one level, another change happens on another level - they are two aspects of the same thing
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Yes, most of us are aware that body and mind are connected. It is the link with mind and spirit that is missing from our experience and as long as we are obsessed with sex, which in nature’s scheme of things, serves to preserve the species, serves only to appease the ego which is nothing but consciousness that is mired solely in the senses.

Sex becomes an important issue in Yoga because in this, all the five senses are simultaneously involved in the gratification of ego, who continues to forever short-change the higher self of the reality of the experience.

To avoid this short-changing, Yogis found means for inner experiences, including those corresponding to physical sex to produce permanent satisfaction, as these experiences were devoid of the involvement of senses and the mind.

For Yogis, this was at once bliss and freedom from the slavery of the senses.

If someone has found a new way to attain all this, that’s great.

regards, anand

#190

Well Amir your interpretation of mine and other posts shows clearly the phenomenol degree of unacceptance and this is because your experience is somewhat limited due to lack of proper understanding. A proper foundation seems lacking here…Experiences are not an end in itself and in your case you have stuck yourself in the limited experience you have experienced and comparing things with this limited experience. This is dangerous in a way for not letting the native to broaden his understanding…he remains sticking to his conclusions out of these experience because he thinks what he experieces is final and fool proof in all respect. Experieces is must in understanding natives own nature but all experiences are not fool proof. It might just be hallucinating the native and to to accept experiences as fool proof is something idiotic. Experience is a ongoing process sometimes replacing old ones and broadening his horizon.
When it concerns celibacy you are stuck in its natural manifestation. With respect to post 186 you’re mislead in taking body as an expression of the true nature…for if body is an expression of our true nature then it means that the soul is limited somehow because a limited thing can only express limited things but which is not the case rather the true nature or soul is not limited in any sense.Rather the body is an expression of nature not the soul…take this basic deep into ur mind.
In your post 187 you misinterpreted my first line,take the full sentence rather a small phrase which changes its meaning completely and that sentence was in response to ur quote when you said “nature has not intended man to be celibate” because if we follow the course of life the way nature wants,which you proposed in your post then the native can do nothing to achieve salvation,he will be bound to it.Hope you understood this second basic.Salvation is achieved when you know there is no relationship between the soul and the nature,both are free in all respect,its the connection between the two which the native experiences out of ignorance and other things which is the cause of bondage and suffering.
It would be rather unethical for me to make you understand rest of the thing till your concepts are not clear. Have experience but not stick to it,they are not an end in itself,gain knowledge to broaden your horizon either by “borrowed knowledge” which you call or by other means because untill and unless you do not broaden your horizon in which knowledge plays an important part…your experience will be somehow limited making you just revolve around it and unabling you to experience other things.

#191

Anand,

“If someone has found a new way to attain all this, that’s great.”

There are other methods which do not involve celibacy, particularly in the tantric sciences - there have been many different approaches as to how to use sex as a method towards the expansion of consciousness. Whether you are being celibate or not celibate is not the point - what is important is awareness. If you are being celibate as a way to help expanding your awareness, then it is useful. If you are not being celibate as a way to help in the expansion of your awareness, then that too is also useful. But to cling to these fanatic ideas that the only way to come to one’s enlightenment is through being celibate, as some yogis have been saying, is simply idiotic.

#192

Spirit,

"Experiences are not an end in itself "

Certainly. What is needed is not experience, because the mind is capable of as many deceptions as possible, it’s ways are almost inexhaustible.

“This is dangerous in a way for not letting the native to broaden his understanding…he remains sticking to his conclusions out of these experience because he thinks what he experieces is final and fool proof in all respect.”

Yes, with enlightenment, there is a certain finality without a doubt.

“With respect to post 186 you’re mislead in taking body as an expression of the true nature”

There is nothing in existence which is not an expression of the divine. Everything in existence is one and the same energy manifesting itself in countless different forms. The forms may be different, but at the root, everything is none other than the same original nature. Water may become ice, ice may become water, water may become gas - they appear to be different to the senses, but it is the same energy. The same is the case with a rock, a tree, a bird, or a human being. Yes, the body arises out of the same source of existence and is a reflection of it in the same way that all forms are reflections from one Great Mirror.

“for if body is an expression of our true nature then it means that the soul is limited somehow because a limited thing can only express limited things but which is not the case rather the true nature or soul is not limited in any sense.”

Even that which is “limited” is eternal. The eternal is the limited, the limited is the eternal - if you make any distinction between the two, then you have missed the essential matter. In the Upanishads there are two statements which are of great significance. One is “aham brahmasmi”. It means “I am Brahman”. The other is “sarvam brahmasmi”. It means “Everything is Brahman”. In Zen, it has also been said, “Emptiness is form, form is Emptiness”. If one wants to at least superficially understand it, then one should contemplate on their meaning.

“unless you do not broaden your horizon in which knowledge plays an important part…”

Knowledge to me is just a tool and nothing more, it is not a substitute for Truth. Yes it is an important part of the process, but knowledge should be approached as a useful instrument and nothing more. Existence is not something that can be understood through the boundaries of one’s intellect, it is well beyond that.

#193

The problem is simply that man is asleep, that he has been living out of unconsciousness. It is a situation which is entirely self-created. Nature is doing just fine by itself - it does not need any improvement. Nothing needs to be added from it, nothing needs to be subtracted from it - things as they are are precisely as they should be.

Dear friend:

Man is asleep with respect to the higher/ subtle aspects. Once he is awake in this sense, he may be aware of, but not “awake” at the earlier/ lower planes.

This is because a person in such a state is known as [I][B]“Avadhoot”[/B][/I], meaning he who has done away with the carnal pleasures and has thus upgraded himself by moving from pleasure to happiness to bliss. I call this as upgrading because he has moved to zero dependence on external stimulus.

By the way, someone who is asleep, cannot wake up as a result of his own decision. If he wakes up on his own, the credit of waking him up goes to nature. If it is spiritual awakening we are referring to, then when such an event occur?

regards, anand

#194

There is nothing in existence which is not an expression of the divine. Everything in existence is one and the same energy manifesting itself in countless different forms. The forms may be different, but at the root, everything is none other than the same original nature. Water may become ice, ice may become water, water may become gas - they appear to be different to the senses, but it is the same energy. The same is the case with a rock, a tree, a bird, or a human being. Yes, the body arises out of the same source of existence and is a reflection of it in the same way that all forms are reflections from one Great Mirror.

Dear friend:

Agreed. In my opinion, Well said. The one and the same energy, in a yoga forum is known as Prana.

However, I add that our dissatisfaction stems from seeing the reflection. That too through the limited apparatus of the senses and mind, in which there is a possibility that the optical frequency green for some species might get processed for some other species as another frequency, which a third species knows by the name yellow!

Hence Yoga tells us to transcend the sense apparatus. Once transcended, it becomes useless and a mere museum piece. Like for example, the pager, which was in vogue some years back.

regards, anand

#195

Amir If tantric sciences do not involve celibacy then its better to call it a porn show.
Well its better to remain silent then force people to arrive to some conclusion and i choose,to retreat to silence…

#196

[QUOTE=Spirit175;63812]Amir If tantric …
… and i choose,to retreat to silence…[/QUOTE]

Dear friend:
That is where yoga begins.
regards
anand

#197

[QUOTE=Anand Kulkarni;63814]Dear friend:
That is where yoga begins.
regards
anand[/QUOTE]
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Rightly said anand.
Take care and tread the path to paramanand with “silence” and then transcend it too…

#198

[QUOTE=Spirit175;63818].
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Rightly said anand.
Take care and tread the path to paramanand with “silence” and then transcend it too…[/QUOTE]

Dear friend:

With Grace of [I][B]Ishwara, Guru[/B][/I] and [I][B]antaratma[/B][/I] (the three not being different), this will one day happen…

regards
anand

#199

anand,

“Man is asleep with respect to the higher/ subtle aspects. Once he is awake in this sense, he may be aware of, but not “awake” at the earlier/ lower planes.”

In this sense, it is true. But when I say that man is in a deep unconsciousness, I am just saying that he has yet to come to communion with his own true nature. That is what the first glimpse into enlightenment is, it is a direct perception of your own true self. As long as you do not know who you are, then one may be doing all kinds of things, but it is done out of the darkness of ones ignorance. If one has yet to come to such an experience, then he is not enlightened or partially enlightened, he is on the path.

“By the way, someone who is asleep, cannot wake up as a result of his own decision.”

That is true. But that does not mean his effort is not needed.

“the credit of waking him up goes to nature. If it is spiritual awakening we are referring to,”

I know that this may be a popular idea in the Mahayoga philosophy which you are clinging to - but I want you to know that without your effort, nature is not even going to lift a finger for your enlightenment. Your effort is needed, not to come to enlightenment, but to prepare an inner atmosphere which enlightenment can arise spontaneously by itself. When the seed is in the proper soil, exposed to the sunlight, with the right amount of water, with all of the ingredients in place - the lotus flower starts surfacing by itself. But you will have to create the necessary conditions for your awakening. If one has been suffering, if you do nothing about it, ones sufferings will continue. Not even countless devas can destroy it.

#200

Spirit,

“Amir If tantric sciences do not involve celibacy then its better to call it a porn show.”

If one is not going to practice tantra, then one should at least educate oneself about the matter. First, tantra has nothing at all to do with hedonistic pleasure of the senses. That has nothing to do with tantra, but belongs to what is known as kama shastra, the erotic arts that have arisen in India. Even Hatha Yoga is something which is basically tantric in nature - most of the methods which deal with the chakra system and awakening the Kundalini are tantric in nature. Matsyendranath and Gorakshanath, whom are the founders of the Hatha Yoga approach, were basically tantrics. That aspect of tantra which uses sex as a method for the expansion of consciousness is just a small part of tantric sciences which is practiced the by left-handed school. The purpose is not for the sake of pleasure, on the contrary, before you would be initiated into such methods the yogi has to demonstrate a great control over the senses. Because most of the methods of tantra - whether of the left handed or right handed schools, deal with stimulation of the senses - if you are not totally mindful in the process - the chances of your being a slave and prey to your experience is enormous. It is one thing to stimulate the senses out of unconsciousness, but it is another thing to stimulate the senses and remain meditative. So before you would even be initiated into such methods - the yogi has to demonstrate that he has already come to a certain amount of understanding and mindfulness. And as far as the sexual intercourse is concerned - it is not for the sake of sex. Because the male and female bodies contain subtle energies which are complimentary to one another, if you know of certain methods as to how to take advantage of the energies of the opposite sex, and channel it into your own system along the spinal cord - then it is possible to awaken Kundalini in your own body and raise it to the top part of the brain where one enters into nirvikalpa samadhi. So the life energies of the opposite sex are just used as an aid for this, and there are various methods as to how to do this during sex, some which involve ejaculation, some of which do not involve ejaculation.