Yoga Beliefs

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

[quote=Tyler Zambori;17447]Ok the reason I’m bringing this up is to show how this is not scientific. It is anecdotal. We use the glucose meter to check the results of what we do, and we use objective observations to
do it, but it is not scientific. we even share pub med articles amongst ourselves, but it is still not scientific. We would just say we are tweaking our own diabetes management regimens. It is just a technique for us. It is anecdotal evidence![/quote]

Namaste Tyler,

Yes, you are right, it isn’t very scientific and it is a technique, but what you seem to forget is that before that self testing technique was available, there was a whole team of scientists who worked on this self testing to make it easy to use and more accessable to diabetics. So behind it was some scientific application. How it is discussed, applied and studied by diabetics, that might not be scientific.

The same with yoga and ayurveda. There were yogis and practitioners who nearly 8000 years or more ago tested certain herbal remedies and apply them and they either got better or they died, that was their science, and that science rendered a healing modality which we can safely use and apply today. Wether we think it was scientific or not, who are we to judge what is to be considered scientific just because it doesn’t agree with some of our norms and what we think scientific is.The same with yoga. Some yogis applied this and that pose and they studied the effects of it closely on the human body and consciousness, some were modified and some were discarded, but in the end what we have today is a system that has value for some people, wether they view as a science or not, point is, it has value.

The software programme has value for you up to a point, but then you need more. Your problem seems to be that you can’t get more and that there are few sources who are prepared to give you more. Perhaps these sources are not the right channels and you are barking up the wrong tree, have that ever occured to you? Perhaps you need to explore a different way to get the info you need. The same with yoga and the spiritual path. I had many instances in my life already where I felt that nobody around me is able to offer me what I need to know. And now comes that wonderful thing we call hindsight. Looking back I can see that I wasn’t ready at that point to recieve the necessary info, even if I did received it then, it would have been meaningless for me. But the wonder is that the info did came to me at the right time and point in my life and it was amazing what effects it had. So, some patience here might go a long way in helping you to get what you want. Life and spiritual life and yoga is not a MacDonalds drive-thru, it is not instant. You work for it and earn it most of the time, the hard way.

About poetry. Wether we like it or not, point is we cannot change history. There was a point in our human history where most of the great works of this world was written in poetic language and aphorisms. The challenge for us today is to make sense of those aphorisms and poetry and to see the value of it for yourself. I cannot offer you an easy way out here, what I can say it does get better with time, once you are used to read it, it does start to make sense and your understanding of their meaning and their value grow with you understanding of poetry and aphorisms. Commentaries are meant to make it easier for us, but it is not meant to be your truth, amidst all the commentaries you still need to find your own truth and that in itself might be a frustration.

Tyler, I hope this might add some light for you to a very difficult time. If you are interested in yoga as a science, Swami Sivananda of the Divine Life Society wrote 8 volumes on yoga as a science called: Science of Yoga. Swami Sivananda had very little contact with the West, in fact it was his disciples after his death in 1963 who took his teachings to West. So very little of that proselyting aspect to the West is in his books.

#22

Zen,

To come back to your original question, after thinking about this over the past few days and since my last answer relating to this question, I would like to add the following: I learned the most about yoga from my teacher. I learned the most about yoga and how it is connected to hinduism through an Indian friend who was kind enough to tell me things and how she view it as a hindu and the value for her behind it all. She was also so kind to take me to the temple and to teach me about the hindu deities and tituals and the rest I found over time in books.

Hope this helps.

#23

[quote=Pandara;17468]Namaste Tyler,

Yes, you are right, it isn’t very scientific and it is a technique, but what you seem to forget is that before that self testing technique was available, there was a whole team of scientists who worked on this self testing to make it easy to use and more accessable to diabetics. So behind it was some scientific application. How it is discussed, applied and studied by diabetics, that might not be scientific. [/quote]

No, it isn’t scientific, even though we use devices developed by science.

The same with yoga and ayurveda. There were yogis and practitioners who nearly 8000 years or more ago tested certain herbal remedies and apply them and they either got better or they died, that was their science, and that science rendered a healing modality which we can safely use and apply today. Wether we think it was scientific or not, who are we to judge what is to be considered scientific just because it doesn’t agree with some of our norms and what we think scientific is.The same with yoga. Some yogis applied this and that pose and they studied the effects of it closely on the human body and consciousness, some were modified and some were discarded, but in the end what we have today is a system that has value for some people, wether they view as a science or not, point is, it has value.
Pandara, that’s exactly what I said! As for “who are we to judge,” I’m thinking…

The software programme has value for you up to a point, but then you need more. Your problem seems to be that you can’t get more and that there are few sources who are prepared to give you more. Perhaps these sources are not the right channels and you are barking up the wrong tree, have that ever occured to you? Perhaps you need to explore a different way to get the info you need.
I did that exactly, by going for a different program that has very very
good and clear instructions, while hoping that someday I can understand
this one.

The same with yoga and the spiritual path. I had many instances in my life already where I felt that nobody around me is able to offer me what I need to know. And now comes that wonderful thing we call hindsight. Looking back I can see that I wasn’t ready at that point to recieve the necessary info, even if I did received it then, it would have been meaningless for me. But the wonder is that the info did came to me at the right time and point in my life and it was amazing what effects it had. So, some patience here might go a long way in helping you to get what you want. Life and spiritual life and yoga is not a MacDonalds drive-thru, it is not instant. You work for it and earn it most of the time, the hard way.
I have to consider that as a possibility, that it may indeed be all me, and
try to keep an open mind about it. But then again, I think Georg Feuerstein did recognize that there was a need that was not being filled, and he tried to fill it.

About poetry. Wether we like it or not, point is we cannot change history. There was a point in our human history where most of the great works of this world was written in poetic language and aphorisms. The challenge for us today is to make sense of those aphorisms and poetry and to see the value of it for yourself. I cannot offer you an easy way out here, what I can say it does get better with time, once you are used to read it, it does start to make sense and your understanding of their meaning and their value grow with you understanding of poetry and aphorisms. Commentaries are meant to make it easier for us, but it is not meant to be your truth, amidst all the commentaries you still need to find your own truth and that in itself might be a frustration.
I think that’s exactly my point, it makes sense, once you are used to
reading it. But some people might need some help with getting used
to reading it!

I think my example of the Shakespeare play is probably the closest one.
I could probably enjoy reading straight Macbeth with no commentary or notes, after I really got a good understanding of Shakespeare in general. Until then, the poetry just won’t even sink in. I might as well just rent a video and be done with it.

Even Shakespeare’s poetry, great as it is, tends to be a little long-winded.
I recently saw Kurosawa’s version of Macbeth. A reviewer praised this film
for having cut out all those long-winded passages of poetry that did not
really help the story.

Tyler, I hope this might add some light for you to a very difficult time. If you are interested in yoga as a science, Swami Sivananda of the Divine Life Society wrote 8 volumes on yoga as a science called: Science of Yoga. Swami Sivananda had very little contact with the West, in fact it was his disciples after his death in 1963 who took his teachings to West. So very little of that proselyting aspect to the West is in his books.
It’s ok Pandara, I’m slowly finding my way. It’s been an interesting discussion; thanks for the book recommendations everyone.

#24

[quote=Willem;17462]There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about the word “poetic” with respect to Mukunda Stiles’ translation of the yoga sutras. This is unfortunate, so let me just quote a few sutras to show you what is meant:

(I-2) Yoga is experienced in that mind which has ceased to identify itelf with its vacillating waves of perception.

(I-21) For those who have an intense urge for Spirit and wisdom, it sits near them, waiting.

(II-47) Yoga pose is mastered by relaxation of effort, lessening the tendency for restless breathing, and promoting an identification of oneself living within the infinite breath of life.

For me, this translation clearly adresses both heart and mind.

This also takes us back to the initial question. One way to learn about yoga is to read a comprehensive view by a contemporary author. Another way is to go back to the source and read texts like the Bhagavad Gita, the Yoga Sutras, and the HathaPradipika. Not knowing Sanskrit, we need to rely on translations. Not living in Patanjali’s time, we need commentaries to understand the terse formulation of the sutras. The best way is to read a few translations and commentaries side by side to find out what rings true for you.

We’re fortunate to have this choice. The choice of so many views, the freedom to find our own truth, and the ability to share this compassoniately with others. Maybe it doesn’t matter so much if we call our practice science, philosophy, spirituality or religion. Just practice diligently and at the end of the day “once all the layers and imperfections concealing truth have been washed away, insight is boundless, with little left to know (sutra IV-31)”.[/quote]

Willem, I agree that we are fortunate to have so many choices, and we should probably read several different commentaries. So I look forward to reading Georg and Chip.

#25

[quote=Pandara;17469]Zen,

To come back to your original question, after thinking about this over the past few days and since my last answer relating to this question, I would like to add the following: I learned the most about yoga from my teacher. I learned the most about yoga and how it is connected to hinduism through an Indian friend who was kind enough to tell me things and how she view it as a hindu and the value for her behind it all. She was also so kind to take me to the temple and to teach me about the hindu deities and tituals and the rest I found over time in books.

Hope this helps.[/quote]

To the OP: In addition to Willem’s very first book recommendation to you,
I’ll add one that looks interesting to me:

[B]http://tinyurl.com/cr8882

[/B][B][B]The Origins of Yoga and Tantra: Indic Religions to the Thirteenth Century[/B][/B]

        [B]Product Description[/B]

Yoga, tantra and other forms of Asian meditation are practised in modernized forms throughout the world today, but most introductions to Hinduism or Buddhism tell only part of the story of how they developed. This book is an interpretation of the history of Indic religions up to around 1200 CE, with particular focus on the development of yogic and tantric traditions. It assesses how much we really know about this period, and asks what sense we can make of the evolution of yogic and tantric practices, which were to become such central and important features of the Indic religious scene. Its originality lies in seeking to understand these traditions in terms of the total social and religious context of South Asian society during this period, including the religious practices of the general population with their close engagement with family, gender, economic life and other pragmatic concerns.

  [B]Book Description[/B]

Yoga and tantra are practised in modernized forms throughout the world today, but most introductions to Hinduism or Buddhism tell only part of the story of how they developed. This book seeks to understand their origins within the wider picture of the evolution of religion and society in South Asia.

I haven’t read it yet, but it looks really interesting. I’ll get around to it eventually. I thought it might be a more complete history of this period than I’ve ever seen before. I definitely don’t recommend Joseph Campbell’s Masks of God - Oriental Mythology." I know you didn’t ask about Tantra, but I thought I’d recommend it because it seems like a good partial history of Yoga.

#26

[QUOTE=Tyler Zambori;17447]PS: I thought of another thing:

Ok the reason I’m bringing this up is to show how this is not
scientific. It is anecdotal. We use the glucose meter to check
the results of what we do, and we use objective observations to
do it, but it is not scientific. we even share pub med articles
amongst ourselves, but it is still not scientific. We would just
say we are tweaking our own diabetes management regimens.
It is just a technique for us. It is anecdotal evidence!

Scientific would be if we were doing this in the midst of a double
blind study, a properly defined one that is not improperly influenced
by the source of research funds, and real scientists were running the thing.
[/QUOTE]

Tyler,

I suppose you are correct in the strictest sense of what is science, but words can and do have different shades of meaning.

In my opinion, yoga is scientific in a couple of ways. For example, religion teaches that if you are a violent thief, murderer, or rapist, God will punish you and you will go to hell. Yoga teaches that if you do these things, bad things are going to happen to you because there exists a universal principle called karma. So yoga is scientific in that it deals with universal principles that are as real as the laws of physics.

Yoga is also scientific in the sense that it does not ask people to accept its teachings based simply on faith or belief. It asks people to practice and experience for themselves. This is a close as Yoga can get to scientific methods, because for the most part, Yoga deals with subjective experience. The claimed powers of Yoga are about proving individual experience by demonstrating results.

#27

[quote=Zen;17336]Where could someone learn about the beliefs of Yoga and the specific religion they are linked too? From what i understand so far, it’s closely linked to Hinduism but also tells that Hinduism is split up in many differant forms, I also understand that the Asanas are used in most of these “Forms” of Hinduism but what form of Hinduism are the beliefs linked to? Particularly [B]Hatha Yoga[/B] Iv also learnt that Yoga is present in some Buddhism, Primarily Zen/Chan Buddhism, once again from something iv read i understand that it was adopted from Hinduism.

Any info would be greatful :)[/quote]

[LEFT]If you would like to address the original poster’s questions on this thread that are quoted above, please add your voice here. If you would like to add to the discussion of Yoga and science, please go to this thread to become part of that conversation: Yoga and Science
[/LEFT]

#28

One of my favorite “Yogi” type books is “Autobiography of a Yogi” by Paramahansa Yogananda. Highly recommended!

#29

[QUOTE=Zen;17336]Where could someone learn about the beliefs of Yoga and the specific religion they are linked too? From what i understand so far, it’s closely linked to Hinduism but also tells that Hinduism is split up in many differant forms, I also understand that the Asanas are used in most of these “Forms” of Hinduism but what form of Hinduism are the beliefs linked to? Particularly [B]Hatha Yoga[/B] Iv also learnt that Yoga is present in some Buddhism, Primarily Zen/Chan Buddhism, once again from something iv read i understand that it was adopted from Hinduism.

Any info would be greatful :)[/QUOTE]

OK, I’m new here, but I’d like to add my too sense.

As others have said, Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras are a work of philosophy, and not linked to any particular religious practice. Some may consider the ideas contained in the Sutras to be Hinduism, but in the sutras themselves, you won’t find much religion. Asanas in particular, as far as I know, are not a form of religious practice.

The commentaries are another story. They can be good and necessary, but they are also the source of a lot of baggage, religious and otherwise.

No one has yet mentioned that Yoga philosophy is closely related to the Samkhya philosophy. In my opinion, the single thing you can do that will most improve your understanding of the Yoga Sutras is to learn about the Samkhya philosophy.

I agree that Buddhism also contains much that is similar to yoga, especialy dharma practice. I wouldn’t say it was adopted from Hinduism. All of the Indian darsanas (Buddhism, Yoga, Samkhya, Vedanta, etc.) developed during the same period and contain similar ideas. Buddhism contains a few ideas that are not a part of Yoga and Samkhya philosophy, and from what I understand, it does not include Hindu religious practices, although they’ve developed some of their own. I’m not an expert but I think there may be some similarities between Buddhist and Hindu tantra.

Another source for information on Yoga are the Yoga Upanishads (Yoga Tattva, Yoga Kundalini, Yoga Sikha, Yoga Chudamani). These were the precursors to the Yoga Sutras. There are English translations available online at celextel.org. They include details of Yoga practice that are not included in the sutras.

Finally, I find that I sometimes gain some additional insight by becoming familiar with the Sanskrit transliterations of the sutras and other works.