Please provide historical evidence for your supposition that “yoga is the source of religion.” Your sense of profundity (if any) resulting from your practice of yoga does not count as evidence.
Neither does regurgitated trashy Eurocentric history on India.
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;44759]Neither does regurgitated trashy Eurocentric history on India.[/QUOTE]
Somebody got up on the wrong side of bed today.
[QUOTE=thomas;44765]Somebody got up on the wrong side of bed today.[/QUOTE]
I’m always this choleric when it comes to ignorance…:D. Jk jk. Just a strong warning not to use racist European histories of India in formulating an argument.
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;44768]I’m always this choleric when it comes to ignorance…:D. Jk jk. Just a strong warning not to use racist European histories of India in formulating an argument.[/QUOTE]
Where did you see such an argument?
You can be sure I will never do that, because I don’t have a clue about the history of India. I barely know anything about the history of the US, since I used that class in high school as a nap time.
[QUOTE=thomas;44769]Where did you see such an argument?
You can be sure I will never do that, because I don’t have a clue about the history of India. I barely know anything about the history of the US, since I used that class in high school as a nap time.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t directed towards you; it was directed at the person who created this thread. Sorry for the miscommunication. 
man is the source of religion.
When I concentrate the mind and fix it to an object. That has nothing to do with india.
Idians didn’t discover anything. They were given the clues and figured it out.
Somebody had to help them. Somebody always helps. Somebody always comes first.
The thing is, I agree with you to some extent. But for Yoga, it is the product of generations of experimentation and observation…it is the product of a culture. Sure someone/body may have helped (we may never know) but it is largely a product of Sanatana Dharma.
Being the Christian/Western ideology influenced person you are, you would obviously disagree and start to redefine words such as “discover” and “invent” to suit your agenda.
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;45395]The thing is, I agree with you to some extent. But for Yoga, it is the product of generations of experimentation and observation…it is the product of a culture. Sure someone/body may have helped (we may never know) but it is largely a product of Sanatana Dharma.
[B]Being the Christian/Western ideology influenced person you are, you would obviously disagree and start to redefine words such as “discover” and “invent” to suit your agenda.[/B][/QUOTE]
Your assuming . . . .
also
Sanatana Dharma is the result of Yoga. Which is the method of knowing.
The western view of yoga as a series of physical exercises and making odd “mudras” and “breathing slowly through the nose” is decidedly indian.
I’ll give you that.
But all that stuff “mudras” “bandhas” asanas are not YOGA.
NOT ONE BIT OF IT is Essential.
Yoga is meditation.
India Didn’t make up “meditation.”
All this defensiveness arises from an almost country wide inferiority complex. Inferiority complexes arise from egoism.
Provide valid historical evidence that Yoga predated Hinduism and gave birth to Hinduism. Citing Indus Valley Seals doesn’t prove that Yoga predated Hinduism.
No, India did not make up meditation. India made YOGA.
Your logic is screwy. I could say Relativity is science. Einstein didn’t make up science. Therefore he didn’t make up Relativity.
No, this defensiveness arises from a desire to shed light on Western propaganda against Hinduism and Indians and propagate the Truth. To Westerners like you, it does not matter whom “this” belongs to. This is because European imperialism effectively raped every country of its resources and chance for development; having used other countries to finance your rise in the world, people just have to look at Western countries material affluence alongside the condition of the world around it and give you all credit for every scientific advancement/etc/etc.
What will happen is that Yoga will become so disassociated from its roots that idiotic Westerners like you will claim that Yoga reached its greatest extent and flowering in the Western world and hence, is its own invention. Once this happens, India will no longer be able to claim even this, just as its not able to be recognized for its considerable achievements in a wide variety of fields. Another triumph of liberalism and secularization which feeds the Westerner’s stereotype of having invented/spead everything to the rest of the uncivilized world.
This is no doubt your unconscious mission, as it is that of most other Westerners. Hinduism causes an adverse reaction in many Westerners influenced by Christianity and Western ideals. Therefore, they feel the need to stamp it out or weaken it (with methods similar to the ones evil Westerners like you use). The sad thing is, your demonic mission has a good chance of succeeding.
I daily see more evidence of the correctness of conditions Hindu scriptures characterized the Kali Yuga by…
I hope your just joking with all this.
You may learn of me by observation - or not.
Anyone who understands yoga knows what I say is true.
Anything any indian came up with in regards to yoga is NON ESSENTIAL. How ever otherwise the charlatans would like you to think.
Anything essential was given.
Real yoga is what some indians call raja yoga.
Real yoga is objectional or non objectional meditation. Thats it.
Bottom line. No indian made that up. It is a secret of life.
Real yoga has nothing to do with the religion of the Sanatana Dharma. The Sanatana Dharma is because of the Yoga. Which is the means to know. It’s truths (action, results, liberation, and so on) are simply discoveries made using the tool of yoga - which is meditation. Which no indian made up. which is the means to know.
I’ve said my peace. My words stand. I will not respond to your “clever” reply. So save it.
You have failed to provide any objective proof that Yoga predated Hinduism. Your feelings of profundity and realization resulting from your practice of yoga is not objective proof (as I have mentioned before).
Haven’t I already admitted that I don’t practice yoga? It was my VERY FIRST POST. However, most of my family DOES practice REAL yoga extensively (not some rip-off Westernized yoga) and from extensive discussions about it, it seems to be that it is a LOT more than just meditation. Real yoga != meditation (Java coding for Not equal). I do not agree with the way you define REAL Yoga (which seems to be a typical anti-Hindu definition, defining the yoga stripped from all its roots in Hinduism/other-Dharmic-faiths and repackaged for Western export as REAL Yoga).
I have no doubts now that you are simply an anti-Hindu Westerner who hides behind the cloak of illogic, liberalization, and secularization to weaken our cultural heritage.
Our number system is what some people call the base 10 number system. The number system is mathematics. No Indian made mathematics up right? Therefore, India did not invent/completely-expound-upon the base 10 system. I have come to realize this from my profound experiences of the beauty of mathematics; therefore, it must be true, despite what extensive historical/archeological evidence tells me otherwise. I am sure other mathematicians would agree.
I too have said my peace. I will not respond to further replies.
I have no doubts now that you are simply an anti-Hindu Westerner who hides behind the cloak of illogic, liberalization, and secularization to weaken our cultural heritage.
And yet another anti-Hindu Westerner makes “THE LIST.”
They’re dropping like flies.
I bet there’s an anti-Hindu Westerner hovering over you right now in his black helicopter. Run for cover…
[QUOTE=thomas;45486]And yet another anti-Hindu Westerner makes “THE LIST.”
They’re dropping like flies.
I bet there’s an anti-Hindu Westerner hovering over you right now in his black helicopter. Run for cover…[/QUOTE]
:lol: HAHA! Thomas, I love your sense of humor…
Real Yoga is Santana dharma 
Santana dharma:
- To unite with ultimate reality or Brahman
- To live according to the eternal laws and principles
- To accept the law of karma and reincarnation
- To discern the differences between matter and the soul(Samkhya)
Yoga:
- To unite with the ultimate reality and realise the self
- To live according to the eternal laws and principles
- To accept the law of karma and reincarnation
- To discern the differences between matter and the soul(Samkhya)
Where is the difference?
I am finding this usage of the dichotomy “Yoga and Hinduism” as hilarious as “Yoga and meditation”
The false dichotomies being created are of the form noun and synonym. Sanatana dharma is a synonym of Hinduism. But some ignorant people say “Sanatana dharma and Hinduism” Yoga is yet another synonym of Hinduism. But some ignorant people say “Yoga and Hinduism”
But I think this tendecy to create false dichotomies is because of the bad grammar in the English language. You often hear people say things like, “I am happy and joyous” or “I am depressed and sad” or “The sun is shining and radient” In all cases here the first word and the second word are synonyms of one another.
My favourite one, “Aryans and Dravidiains”
Logical fallacies of equating one thing with another without taking into account degrees of things, biases, and etc is simply the Western mindset. Words reflecting absolutes and words reflecting a facet of something are often heavily mixed up for one another, creating many logical fallacies, misunderstandings, ignorance, and etc. The “be” verb and its respective conjugations is a particularly deadly word trap…
Here’s something interesting I found: Rules of Engagement for Christian Missionaries when debating against Hindus.
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ALWAYS quote a seer, a scripture or a random Sanskrit verse in support of your position **. By doing this you are deflecting others from arguing against you; instead you are pitting your opponent against the Acharyas/Shastras of his own faith. That will surely make his knees weak, and you will prevail. ( If you are a Universalist, a verse from scriptures of other religions may also be used)
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Try to show phony affection for others by using words like, “my dear xxx”, “with love”, “my humble obeisances”, “warm regards” etc. This will make others feel like you really care about them and they will acquiesce.
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Don’t be bashful. Be condescending as much as possible. Pretend that you are the ‘high priest’ and are talking to a bunch of 5 year olds.
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Use tags like “shrill”, “shallow”, “unsupported”, “hearsay” etc., when describing your opponent’s position. This invalidates anything meaningful that they might be saying.
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In order to be a moving target, be vague; never summarize your position in a short paragraph. Instead, provide half a dozen links in your post. First thing, it shows that you are well read. Secondly, they will spend 2 hours reading the stuff in the links, which may be totally unrelated to the topic, then get bored/frustrated and throw in the towel.
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If you want attention drawn to something dear to your heart, inject it into an ongoing heated discussion. Some people may take the bait and digress and start discussing your topic, which otherwise might go unnoticed in its own thread.
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If you are currently in India, make sure you let that be known to everyone. Your physical proximity to seers and famous temples adds to your credence.
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Be gullible. Always take the position that anything goes in Hinduism, that it is all encompassing, that what made it strong is its encouragement of non-sensical open ended discussions, and that Hindus believe all paths lead to God.
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Take the moral high ground. Be a secular pacifist. That way your opponents appear to be saffron terrorists. You can let your imagination run wild and even liken them to Hitler.
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Never consider Hindu unity to be a factor in your discussions. Spew out ego fueled raw garbage against the sampradayes that you are not part of. Remember, what makes you feel good and enforces least number of restrictions on your lifestyle is the best sampradaye to latch on to; and that is the only one worth protecting.
To reiterate, you don’t have to be right, just tricky enough to come out on top. Your aim is not spiritual advancement or increasing your scriptural knowledge, but to score points by overpowering others in a debate. At the end of the year, member with the most points gets an all expense paid trip for two (you can only bring a person of the opposite sex please), to Disneyland, California, USA.
It is sad to say that most people here follow many of the aforementioned 10 commandments to win debates and otherwise deny India its rich cultural heritage.
Logical fallacies of equating one thing with another without taking into account degrees of things, biases, and etc is simply the Western mindset. Words reflecting absolutes and words reflecting a facet of something are often heavily mixed up for one another, creating many logical fallacies, misunderstandings, ignorance, and etc.
Are you saving up to move away from the evil West (I hope)?
Logical fallacies are not “western” anymore than math errors are.
I think you’re referring to an equivocation fallacy, which I see all the time. I’ll let you know next time you or SD makes one when you disparage Christianity.
Oh no, but they are more common in Westerners (cough* Christians cough*) than anyone else I see.
Come now Thomas, do not take offense at one who expresses his viewpoints. I could tell you to move away from America and give your land back to the Native Americans whom Christians were professionals in wiping out. “Indians are essentially inferior to the Anglo-Saxon race…and their disappearance from the human family will be no great loss to the world.”
It is quite amusing when you [B]never[/B] respond [B]directly[/B] to my criticisms of Christianity (like a typical Christian) and resort back to general assertions of how wrong/biased I am.
Yes, I refer to an equivocation fallacy.