Yoga row between Indian Yogis and Western Yogis

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#35

This is from the International Yoga Festival Website:

Overview
The annual International Yoga Festival is organized jointly by the Uttarakhand Tourism and Parmarth Niketan Ashram in Rishikesh, India.

The Festival will take place from Monday 1st March to Sunday March 7’th, 2011.

For the last two years over 400 people from 30 countries have traveled to Rishikesh, India to experience one of world’s largest Yoga events.

During the one week Festival, you will have the opportunity to participate in over 60 hours of Yoga classes from world-class Yoga teachers practicing multiple styles of Yoga including Kundalini Yoga, Power Vinyasa Yoga, Iyengar Yoga and Kriya Yoga.
Please review the Presenters and Festival Program sections for further information.

The participants will also be blessed with the presence, satsang and divine words of revered saints and spiritual masters from within India, including H.H. Sri Shankaracharya Swami Divyanand Teerthji, H.H. Swami Chidanand Saraswatiji and H.H. Swami Veda Bharatiji.

Yoga is not merely for our bodies, but rather Yoga is for our bodies, minds, hearts and souls. Yoga literally means “Union” - union of breath with the body, of the mind with the muscles, and most importantly of the self with the divine. Yoga is not a religon. It does not require you to believe in a certain God or chant certain mantras.

Yoga is an ancient science which leads to health in the body, peace in the mind, joy in the heart, and liberation of the soul.

The International Yoga Festival explores the eight limbs of Yoga and how they apply to our lives whether we consider ourselves Yoga students or not.

Please join us as we breathe in the sights and wonders of India and meet one another on this path of discovery and awakening.

Shiva Rea was listed as one of the world class teachers. I think it is a shame what has been done to her. While I’ve not had the opportunity to meet her in person, everything I’ve heard and read about her confirms she is deeply spiritual and a good person who wants to share her knowledge of yoga with any and all. If the organizers wanted only Indian/Hindu presenters and teachers, Shiva and anyone else from the west would not have been invited.

For some reason this has really gotten my dander up. I don’t see that yoga has been bastardized at all. If people brand their own style, who’s to say they are doing only for recognition or financial benefit? Perhaps they really feel they’ve stumbled on to something. Built upon the yoga they had been taught. I teach a yin/yang yoga class and nothing I say to my students goes against any of the 8 limbs. The asanas we practice during class are all the standard ones. Very little if any variation.

And there are teachers out there who have been teaching for 20 + years who know little and some who have only been teaching a short time who know much. Much goes to dedication on your path.

#36

Yin/Yang is not Yoga. It is Taoism. There is a practice similar to Yoga in Taoism known as Qigong and Tai chi, but it is not Yoga. Those who want to learn Qigong or Tai chi need to find experts in Qigong and Tai Chi. Those who want to learn Yoga, need to find experts in Yoga.

Mixing them together does a disservice to both traditions. This is new-age habit of mixing everything is not enlightened, and even new-age spokespeople such as Terrence Mckenna have spoken against it - calling it the balkanization of reason.

#37

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54042]Yoga deals with three kinds of suffering or stress that affects the human being: physical suffering or stress; emotional/mental suffering or stress and spiritual suffering or stress. As happy as you and your family claim to be, all of you are going to suffer from physical problems, emotional and mental problems, and life problems. Nobody is exempt from this suffering. Everybody is affected by the 5 vices of anger, lust, arrogance, hatred, jealousy to some extent or the other. Yoga is a full program designed to manage, and eventually eradicate all kinds of suffering from ones life. This is achieived by the 8 limbs of Yoga.[/QUOTE]

I do understand what many eastern philosophies are trying to achieve… but there is another option. When suffering comes along, you can use the opportunity to become a stronger person. You can be an adult and except the hardships of life, and not have such unrealistically high expectations that everything should go exactly how I want it to go. Maybe Buddhism and Hinduism might have something to offer for people experiencing depression, but if you are happy, there’s little value. Hang around with happy people. You may learn that there is a whole different way of living that is free of any strict rules or philosophies, yet is still completely satisfactory. It more involves being grateful of the things you have, and being grateful of every moment. I don’t need a system of liberation, no matter how unhappy you think I am (which is just insanely judgement and ignorant by the way)… having said that, I do know fully well that all religions seem to have that same view, that anyone who is not part of our little club is either unhappy, or will be unhappy, or will receive some type of punishment for not agreeing with our little club.
I’m not against Hinduism and Buddhism, and if you feel that your life is missing something, or you don’t feel happy in general, and if eastern philosophy tends to help, than absolutely go for it, and I genuinely hope you do get a lot of benefit from it. I do like the idea of meditation and living in the moment… in fact if I was at all to describe my spiritual side, it would be that I want to live in the real moment, and not in the past, or future, or any type of fantasy land… but I certainly am happy enough, that I do not feel the need for a path to happiness… and I hope there are plenty more people that are satisfied with there lives. Death comes so fast, and it would be a tragedy to think that there are people out there who have not found inner peace and happiness.

#38

Yin/Yang is not Yoga.

While Yin is highly influenced by Taoism, Yang is not. And honestly, it is your opinion and matters little.

And I also find it interesting you made no comment about the rest of my post. Only about the style yoga I teach.

#39

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;54086]While Yin is highly influenced by Taoism, Yang is not. And honestly, it is your opinion and matters little.[/QUOTE]

As an aside,
Taoism is unity between yin and yang, which could be directly compared to union between ha and tha.

#40

Yes Terence, that is understood. My reference to my style was my attempt to make my point that one can teach or brand a style, but remain true to 8 limbs. My explanation could have been better. Yin/Yang Ha/Tha different words same meaning. Passive/active, sun/moon, male/female. Reference to yang was meant more in line with yoga.

#41

Point understood and agreed!

#42

shiva and shakti , Ida and Pingala this and that . god and no god east and west , dualism and non dual . good and bad . where do the North and south come into this what do they think ? do they hate each other ?
By the way the yogi who was allegedly complaining has a rather fetching picture of himself topless on his website (he has a shawl ) He has some pretty photees of him teaching westerner wimmin , he does not look like he hates them , and they are wearing short sleeved t-shirts presumably these photos are taken in Rishikesh . He also has guidelines for behaviour in his space , which seem reasonable and clear.
I still think this is a non story , created by a press which likes to divide and play on prejudice and fear (on the whole ). I also hear of westerners behaving with gross insensitivity and crassness , in Rishikesh , But I also hear of so called swamis behaving unskillfully , usually around women and gold . I have stories but my lips are sealed.
Lilas play perhaps. We could all breathe and release the mental and physical, gripping , holding patterns .
Not that I dont think it important to discern what may be yoga and what may not be yoga , and have discourse on the matter.

#43

Or you could say that the human race is practicing yoga. The concept of ‘east’ and ‘west’ actually being an illusion leading to restrictive sub dividing of human unity.

#44

Nice thought Terence. The human race practicing yoga. No east west controversy.

Charliedharma,

We do tend to leave the North and South out of the equation don’t we! They probably have the answer to the question of the meaning of life and won’t share it with the east and west. ( and for those of who understood the previous sentence, and have read the book, the answer is 42)

#45

Thankyou Terence , would have taken less time .

#46

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54014]I think this is what I have realised about Westerners over time, they do not respect the unity of anything. There is a tendency within the Western mind to appropriate anything, and mix and match it with other things(so-called free-form) without any sense of order. And it is justified by attitudes that, “We can, so we will”

But to the rest of the world Westerners look like people who struggle with notions like respect. Like for example respecting the cultural forms of another culture. The West think it is their right to appropriate anything and everything from other cultures - take whatever they want and do whatever they want with it. These other cultures, out of their good will teach these Western people their cultural forms, but seldom do they realise that the Western student is not going to appreciate its purity and will do whatever they want with it.

Unfortunately, due this to immature attitude of Western people, other cultures are starting to move towards protecting their cultural forms, such as by demanding government regulation and patenting them. I welcome these actions, in light of how arrogant Western attitudes are. I am really starting to see why the rest of the world hates the West as I converse more and more with Western people vis-a-vis other cultures.[/QUOTE]

You grew up in England (‘the West’) and still live there, and you don’t even practice asana…or at least that was the case a few months ago.

So I ask, where is your place to comment?

#47

I do what ever the heck I want - and there’s nothing anyone can do or say about it.

BWHAHAHAHHAHAHHAH.

THE WORLD IS MINES!

They say ‘come up here.’ I say no!

They say ‘do this this way.’ I say No!

They say ‘breath like this.’ I say KISS MY GRITS!

What are they gonna do? Go cry to their mommies?

#48

Yes Terence, that is understood. My reference to my style was my attempt to make my point that one can teach or brand a style, but remain true to 8 limbs.

What gives you the right to brand a style? It is not your original intellectual property to brand it. Yoga is not your intellectual property. Taoism is not your intellectual property. So combining them both to create a hodge podge which is neither here or there, gives you no more right either.

I think this discussion has highlighted how important it is to regulate the Yoga industry to stop the abuse of it and commercialization of it.

#49

[QUOTE=Terence;54089]As an aside,
Taoism is unity between yin and yang, which could be directly compared to union between ha and tha.[/QUOTE]

The similarity is rather superficial. Ying and Yang simply means the masculine and feminine, soft and hard and refers to the world of opposites. There is an exact equivalent in Indian terminology Dvanda(opposites) Hatha, actually means forced Yoga or mechanical Yoga(The Ha meaning sun, and tha meaning moon is a symbolic intepretation) In Hatha Yoga, the body is said to have a lunar and solar channel(Ida and Pingala) which respectively correspond to left and right hemispheres of the brain and left and right nostrils. The purpose of Hatha Yoga is to balance the solar and lunar channels through physical practices in order to awaken the Kundalini at the base of the spine, and cause her to ascend to the head, leading to a total transformation.

This is unique to Hatha Yoga, and is not found in Taoism in the same form or clarity.

New agers have a habit of seeing only a slight similarity and concluding sameness, without actually seeing the critical differences which make something unique.

#50

[QUOTE=The Scales;54113]I do what ever the heck I want - and there’s nothing anyone can do or say about it.

BWHAHAHAHHAHAHHAH.

THE WORLD IS MINES!

They say ‘come up here.’ I say no!

They say ‘do this this way.’ I say No!

They say ‘breath like this.’ I say KISS MY GRITS!

What are they gonna do? Go cry to their mommies?[/QUOTE]

Come here… you need a hug :slight_smile:

#51

Who said I branded yin/yang?

And what give you the right to condemn anyone?

#52

do understand what many eastern philosophies are trying to achieve… but there is another option. When suffering comes along, you can use the opportunity to become a stronger person. You can be an adult and except the hardships of life, and not have such unrealistically high expectations that everything should go exactly how I want it to go.

This is pretty much what these Eastern philosophies teach. Have no expectations, act without expectations. In Hinduism it is called Nishkama karma(dispassionate action) and in Zen Buddhism, Wu-wei(actionless action) Another practice is meditation, whereby one always remains in an equanimous state, indifferent to both pain and pleasure.
But is it easy in practice? Hell no. It is practically impossible to not have expectations. If I want to land a job I really like, I cannot help myself but expect that I get it. If I am with my partner, I cannot help myself but expect that they remain faithful to me. We expect things all the time, sometimes without even realising it. When expectations are not met they lead to disappointments, and then frustration and anger.

Similarly, it is practically impossible to remain in an eqaunimous state. All it takes is one wrong glance from a stranger on the street to disturb it and throw one into anxiety. One rude occurence is enough to produce anger. Getting a disease can ruin peoples lives.
This is why the practice of Yoga was invented in order to develop these skills of living without expectations and living equanimously, in addition to living healthy.

The practice of Yama and Niyama cultivate a balanced ethical life. The practice of Asana improve circulation and flexibility. The practice of Pranayama improves the use of energy in he body. Pratyahara improves one centre. Dharana improves ones ability to concentrate and apply themselves. Dhyana improves ones ability for equanimity, witnessing without reaction.

This is why Yoga is a complete system of body and mind management. Nothing needs to be improved. Rather, it is something that needs to be implemented.

Maybe Buddhism and Hinduism might have something to offer for people experiencing depression, but if you are happy, there’s little value. Hang around with happy people. You may learn that there is a whole different way of living that is free of any strict rules or philosophies, yet is still completely satisfactory.

What you are referring to as happiness is simutaneously sorrow. It is an unstable happiness that depends upon circumstances and people. Tomorrow, if your circumstances changed and the people you love were not there, what you call happiness will quickly turn into sorrow.
As long as the roots remain for suffering, suffering will keep returning. If you experience anger, fear, lust, jealousy, anxiety at any point in your day, then the roots of these impurities remain. As long as they remain they will keep you in the bondage of suffering. If you feel the need to be violent against another person(such as you intimated towards me) you are suffering.

The good news is there is a solution to suffering and that is Yoga. It will deal with physical suffering, mental and emotional suffering and spiritual suffering.

I’m not against Hinduism and Buddhism, and if you feel that your life is missing something, or you don’t feel happy in general, and if eastern philosophy tends to help, than absolutely go for it, and I genuinely hope you do get a lot of benefit from it.

I experience a lot of suffering. At the moment I am experiencing physical suffering because of the health problems I have recently contracted. I have throughout my life suffered a lot of anxiety, especially beginning from the age of 16. Although today this has lessened to a large extent, the roots still remain and can manifest from time to time. The greatest suffering I experience though is spiritual - existential crisis - the need to find out who I am. This one is a real killer, because you experience soul pain.

The only remedy for soul pain is Yoga. This is my next stop.

#53

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54120]The similarity is rather superficial. Ying and Yang simply means the masculine and feminine,
This is unique to Hatha Yoga, and is not found in Taoism in the same form or clarity.

New agers have a habit of seeing only a slight similarity and concluding sameness, without actually seeing the critical differences which make something unique.[/QUOTE]

No Yin (not spelt Ying) and Yang do not simply mean masculine and feminine. If you have no experience studying Daoist arts do not comment on them. Try and research and learn about what you’re talking about. Otherwise you are perceived as ignorant.

#54

I know that they mean hard and soft, and these do connote masculine and femine.

Don’t worry, I already perceive you as ignorant :wink: