[QUOTE=YogiAdam;53971]Actually I’m beginning to realize what I do may not actually be ‘yoga’. But unfortunately there is no such thing as ‘asanas’ There’s no asana classes or asana forums. I guess you could say I do asana instead of yoga… but in Australia… that’s what they call yoga anyway.[/QUOTE]
The correct technical term for asans is Hathyog
[QUOTE=trinley;54392]Doesn’t sexism “affect the dignity of yoga”?
Why can Indian men do yoga in a loincloth and no one comments, while a woman wearing pants and a t-shirt is criticized for her skimpy clothes? Think of a famous Indian guru and look him up on Google images. You will soon be looking at his naked butt cheeks, but I doubt Yogi Ram would be offended.[/QUOTE]
Its a cultural issue. For example the traditional male dress in Kerala is a Mundu (dhoti) with the chest bare except for a strip of cloth called Angavastram. Women are generally fully clothed.
These perceptions come when we look at other cultures through the view point of the culture that we are used to. Several African cultures have the women not clothed on the chest. The africans view it as traditional while an Indian may not. 
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54393] there are clear differences between a topless man and a topless woman.[/QUOTE]
I never mentioned toplessness. I wrote that a man can do yoga in a loincloth, while a woman is criticized for her “low-waisted” pants.
[QUOTE=b.shahvir;54395]Pls. do not sexualise everything, leave some things to common sense![/QUOTE]
I am not sexualizing. I am asking why women are being sexualized in pants while men are not being sexualized in loincloths. Women are no more ‘sexual’ than men. And the male body is no less ‘sexual’ than the female body.
What each person perceives as ‘common sense’ is only opinion and social conditioning.
[QUOTE=trinley;54399]
What each person perceives as ‘common sense’ is only opinion and social conditioning.[/QUOTE]
Well then so be it!
First of all, this is the culture of India. Western people going to India are going to have to respect the culture. If they do not like it, do not go.
Like I said, there are clear differences between the man’s body and the womans body. A topless man and a topless women walking about, will create different reactions. In India, a man wearing a dhoti is not perceived as sexual(in fact trust me, it is very unsexy) but a woman wearing tight pants and a t shirt can be perceived as sexual. Hence why for women we have traditional dress which is highly elegant and free to wear. This cultivates a sense of respect for women. A very popular saying in India goes, “a woman is somebodies daughter, mother, sister or wife” thus the cultural ethos demands that a woman be respected.
Western women are not often respected in India. Indian men peer at them like sex objects and consider them easy, but this is partly because Western women dress in ways that sexualise them. For this reason Western travel advisories advise Western women to dress up in India.
Here in the UK, women parading themselves as sexual objects is a highly common activity. Every friday and saturday night in the city centre, I see women dressed in skimpy clothes accentuating their legs and breasts, walking about getting peered at by men and groups of men, and sexual advances made on them. It is not uncommon to see groups of men walk by a group of women and the men pinch their arse. This culture is internalized in the West.
I have recently become highly alienated by the discussions I use to have with my friends where we would report on every women that walked by, objectifying them and making lewd sexual gestures. Now when I go out and such discussions take place, I roll my eyes and find it really uncomfortable. This is because I now realise that we are doing is objectifying another soul. It is a form of exploitation and it makes me sick now.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54404]. This is because I now realise that we are doing is objectifying another soul. It is a form of exploitation and it makes me sick now.[/QUOTE]
The unfortunate embodied soul is exploiting herself…you need not feel sick or guilty about it, as you cannot control someone’s free will
Indeed I cannot, but I can distance myself from such discussions. I have actually made a it a point to tell my friends now that I do not approve of those discussions.
These Western women are indeed objectifying themselves, but we are no better by encouraging it and acting lustfully.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54407]Indeed I cannot, but I can distance myself from such discussions. I have actually made a it a point to tell my friends now that I do not approve of those discussions.
These Western women are indeed objectifying themselves, but we are no better by encouraging it and acting lustfully.[/QUOTE]
The sad part is for these women (Western or Indian), objectifying oneself equals to freedom & liberation. This is indeed sad but true!
I find it a sexist viewpoint that if a man has a problem leering, it’s the woman’s fault. It is sexist that women bear the brunt of accusation when it takes two to tango. When women are sexualized, men also participate in the sexualization! There would be no sexualization without the 2nd party who is looking at the woman with lust. Yet some men expect women to cater to their inability to control their desires. That is sexist manipulation.
I have been pinched and groped in India while wearing a kurti and jeans. I have never been pinched or groped (not even once) in a western country where I wear anything I want. My point in saying that is NOT that India is bad and the west is good. My point is this: whether a woman will be groped, pinched, leered at or sexualized has very little to do with what she chooses to wear that day.
Surya Deva, a topless woman only creates a stir in a culture where breasts are sexualized. As reaswaran pointed out, there are cultures where women go around topless and men think nothing of it, because breasts are not hidden and sexualized in these cultures. I find this to be evidence that what you perceive to be a clear difference in the female body is only a clear difference in how cultures [I]perceive[/I] the female body.
“a woman is somebodies daughter, mother, sister or wife”
I know that has some cultural importance for you, but it is only cultural and has no meaning to me besides stating the obvious. A man is somebody’s son, father, brother or husband.
My point as it relates to the OP is that it would be naive of us to say that the practice of yoga in India is, or ever was, pure and treated with 100% dignity, while in the west it is being perverted, sexualized and materialized. A culture will inevitably contribute the good and bad of that culture. As a result of sexism in India, women were excluded from yoga for centuries. Now women are free to learn about yoga along with men, but women are still subjected to scrunity over clothing, while men are not. And I find that to be sexist.
[QUOTE=b.shahvir;54408]The sad part is for these women (Western or Indian), objectifying oneself equals to freedom & liberation. This is indeed sad but true![/QUOTE]
Yes, it’s sad that women have been robbed of freedom for so long that we are willing to do anything to get it. It’s sad that we as humans have created this situation.
Trinley, you are absolving the women of all responsibility in how she dresses. Yes, in some cultures breasts are not considered sexual such as tribal cultures, but here the intention is different. In Western culture, when a woman dresses a certain way with very short skirts to show their legs, backless tops and tight tops that accentuate their breasts, the intention is sexual. I know fully well myself how women in the UK prepare for friday and saturday nights to impress the men. Then when the men reciprocate, it satisfies them. Of course, they also attract the attention of unwanted men as well.
Yes, sure women will get sexualised by men irrespective of what they are wearing, but it is common sense that if a woman is already sexualised that she will get more attention. If you walk about fully clothed, it is often a message to men that you are not looking for sexual attention. In fact you might be perceived as a challenge.
As a result of sexism in India, women were excluded from yoga for centuries.
You need to cite actual data if you are going to make such claims about my civilisation. Women were never excluded from Yoga. You need to bear in mind at least 30 of the authors of the most sacred scripture of India are women sages. In India, a women can rise to the highest post and become a guru. She can then go around teach men. India is full of examples of very powerful and respectable women, and in Western history there are barely none. I mean come on, the West is a civilisation which burned its women at stake. Before you hit back at me with wild claims of wife burning, this is an isolated socio-historical event which was bought on by Muslim men raping Hindu women, and in order to save their honour Hindu women preferred to immolate themselves. There is absolutely no evidence of any such endemic problem existing in Hindu society, other than as rare and isolated cases during Muslim rule.
woman is somebodies daughter, mother, sister or wife"
I know that has some cultural importance for you, but it is only cultural and has no meaning to me besides stating the obvious. A man is somebody’s son, father, brother or husband.
Indeed it is stating the obvious, and indeed the same can apply to a man. However, there is no equivalent saying for the man, because the message is saying something deeper: women are to be respected. This has historically been a part of our culture. In fact it is said in our culture the death of any society begins when men start disrespecting and abusing women. In two of our biggest epics, the Mahabharata and Ramayana, two massive and devestating wars take place because a women was disrespected.
I was wrong we have come to new topic .sex In recent times when I have gone to India I have been shocked by the lack of cultural sensitivity by mainly the British , as to what may be the norm or accectable to wear , There again it used to irritate me ,slightly , that back in the day when westerners seemed a little more aware in India as to how to dress , western women were portrayed as sex objects by the Indian advertising peeps , eg western women were always on packets of condoms , so it may not be surprising that young highly charged Indian boys seem to think it fine to go around groping women because they have somewhat warped ideas as to western sensibilities , the problem lies on both sides no ? We are of course dealing with two highly sexually repressed societies . Calmly discuss .
I seem to have read that India was not always so repressed in its attitudes , lots of colonised places were made to feel ashamed by their oppressors of sex or perceived sexuality ( ie just because your naked doesnt mean it has anything to do with sex , see naga babas , in fact yoga can be seen to be a spiritual striptease) not sure of history around this in India , but of course what was accectable must vary from state to state , for example the Andaman and nicobars now ironically oppressed by Indians how would they naturally dress ?
It is sad that our natural state has become so charged and laden with social anxiety. Me im cold so have plenty layers on
Again, perception of Western women in India is very sexualised. Indian men think they are easy. It is unfortunate attitude really, but where there is smoke there is fire. Why do you think Western women are thought to be sex objects? Just taken a look at the nightlife culture in the West and it becomes very clear.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54435]Again, perception of Western women in India is very sexualised. Indian men think they are easy. It is unfortunate attitude really, but where there is smoke there is fire. Why do you think Western women are thought to be sex objects? Just taken a look at the nightlife culture in the West and it becomes very clear.[/QUOTE]
My neighbor where i used to work - owned - yes a quickie mart - anyway that indian man was the horniest guy ever and he was married with children.
I’ve noticed this. Indians are horny.
They got 800 million people - somebody - been doing somebody - a lot.
Americans are horny.
Almost EVERYBODY horny.
Maybe the Indians are a little more repressed about it where as here and maybe in Briton you had the ‘sexual revolution.’ in the 60’s.
So perhaps the west is more open about that…This is simply a cultural difference.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54425]Trinley, you are absolving the women of all responsibility in how she dresses. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=trinley;54417] It is sexist that women bear the brunt of accusation when it takes two to tango. When women are sexualized, men also participate in the sexualization! [/QUOTE]
Look, I can’t be bothered to read your posts if you don’t bother to read mine and respond to what I actually wrote. I said it’s unfair that women bear the brunt. I said that men [B]also[/B] participate in sexualization. I said it takes [B]two[/B] to tango. The two I am referring to are the man and the woman. You speak as if there are only two possibilities: all the woman’s fault or all the man’s. You are so convinced of this that you can’t even read clearly. My statement that women do not bear [B]all[/B] the guilt does not mean that men instead bear [B]all[/B] the guilt. You are trying to change my words so that you can push your viewpoint. I’m sorry, but there’s no longer any point in me continuing to debate an issue with a person who is unwilling to even listen to the other side. I might as well be talking to a wall.
You are being rather intolerant in the way you are debating, do you have a chip on your shoulder? All I am pointing out is something which is obvious, if women dress in such a way as to objectivity themselves sexually, then these women are obviously responsible for presenting these images to men. If you read carefully, I had actualy said that I find discussions by my male friends where they objectify women to be uncomfortable and alienating, and I have actually made it a point to tell my male friends that I do not approve of this anymore. So, no I am not squarely putting the blame at the womans door step, but rather I am saying that in Western culture this relationship of the women as the sex object and the man as her consumer has been internalized. This is unfortunate.
I think Western culture can learn something from Indian cultural ethos that women need to be respected. However, this also means women need to respect themselves. And the millions of British women who objectify themselves every friday and saturday night, clearly do not respect themselves.
[QUOTE=The Scales;54438]My neighbor where i used to work - owned - yes a quickie mart - anyway that indian man was the horniest guy ever and he was married with children.
I’ve noticed this. Indians are horny.
They got 800 million people - somebody - been doing somebody - a lot.
Americans are horny.
Almost EVERYBODY horny.
Maybe the Indians are a little more repressed about it where as here and maybe in Briton you had the ‘sexual revolution.’ in the 60’s.
So perhaps the west is more open about that…This is simply a cultural difference.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I agree. It is human nature for men to find women sexy, and people will continue having sex whether women wear bikinis and burqas. Repression of women does not reduce men’s sexual desire at all.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54404]
Now when I go out and such discussions take place, I roll my eyes and find it really uncomfortable.[/QUOTE]
Well, at least you’re getting some excercise.
I agree with you. India is a very backward and unenlightened society that subjugates her women and restricts their rights as given to men. Hopefully the new media will awaken and enlighten the people and they will demand freedom from male-dominated, antiquated doctrine. Fingers crossed. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: