Yoga row between Indian Yogis and Western Yogis

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

There is also a perverse underestimation of western knowledge and wisdom. If all human beings did were adherence to traditional beliefs I certainly would not be thumbing a response on a nifty little iPhone. I would probably be drawing pictures on some cave wall with the blood of some vanquished foe or prey. It is because my ancestors took new ideas and melded them with old ideas to progress my tribe forward that I am watching golf instead.

This ‘new generation has no respect for tradition’ argument was probably ‘hhrruumphed’ by tribal leaders back in that cave aeons ago. And will most likely continue for aeons to come. All in vain.

#22

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54014]I think this is what I have realised about Westerners over time, they do not respect the unity of anything. There is a tendency within the Western mind to appropriate anything, and mix and match it with other things(so-called free-form) without any sense of order. And it is justified by attitudes that, “We can, so we will”

But to the rest of the world Westerners look like people who struggle with notions like respect. Like for example respecting the cultural forms of another culture. The West think it is their right to appropriate anything and everything from other cultures - take whatever they want and do whatever they want with it. These other cultures, out of their good will teach these Western people their cultural forms, but seldom do they realise that the Western student is not going to appreciate its purity and will do whatever they want with it.

Unfortunately, due this to immature attitude of Western people, other cultures are starting to move towards protecting their cultural forms, such as by demanding government regulation and patenting them. I welcome these actions, in light of how arrogant Western attitudes are. I am really starting to see why the rest of the world hates the West as I converse more and more with Western people vis-a-vis other cultures.[/QUOTE]
I think you need to soften your attitude somewhat.
Try practicing some yoga.

#23

A yogi would not be offended by ‘Alleu’ or ‘Allah-u-Akbar.’ Why would they be? Yoga is not affiliated, and does not belong, to any religion.

I am not offended by “Alleu” or “Allah-u-Akbar” but I can understand why a Meccan would be offended by me saying, “Har Har Mahadev” in the Mecca and why a Christian would be offended by me saying “Allah-u-Akbar” in Vatican city. Similarly, saying a Christian word of worship in a Hindu city. It just courtesy and respect for other people.

What is traditional yoga? A practice only open to Hindu men?
And who should govern yoga? Should Indian police be banging on ashram doors demanding baksheesh for 'incorrect yoga practice?'
Should India follow China’s example, and imprison anyone who doesn’t follow the strict rules on what you can and cannot practice?

No, traditional Yoga is a science of self development, consisting of 8 parts: yama, niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyhara, dharana, dhyana and samadhi. It should be treated as the lofty science it is, and not cheapened like it is in the West as some exercise program or weight loss program. This is disrespectful.

If people want to take classes that are not authentic, then that is their decision. You can’t dictate what people do, as long as they are not harming themselves or others it is their right to do what they want. If they want to give their hard earned money to the yogic equivalent of dodgy insurance salesmen, then they are free to do so.

The point is these inauthentic and dodgy versions should not exist. By introducing regulation we can get rid of these inauthentic and dodgy versions.

Authentic practices are there for those who seek. For example, The Iyengar Institute remain true to their message and guru. Evolution is such that any ‘weak branches’ will fall away. The trunk of yoga will always remain strong, and the practice will continue to evolve.

It will not remain strong if we let the current trends to continue without taking action. It will end up becoming cheapened, becoming nothing more than a weight loss or exercise gimmick.

As for the ‘civil code,’ I find little civilized, healthy or spiritual in forcing women to cover up when men can dress how they like. But as stated before, it is best for women to do so in order to avoid being troubled.

Even men are told to cover up in India. It was frowned upon in some parts of India for me to wear t shirts. The traditional Indian dress both for men and women dresses you up, rather than down. It is simply a case of respecting another culture. Western people can do whatever they want back home, but when they are in India, especially in holy cities like Rishikesh, Hardiwar, Dharamsala etc, they have to observe a dress code.

#24

It is because my ancestors took new ideas and melded them with old ideas to progress my tribe forward that I am watching golf instead.

I accept that, but in this case we have a case of something which is not broken, so it does not need fixing. Yoga is already a complete system of body and mind management and complete system of self development. There is nothing to improve. In the West, rather than experiencing further development, it has degenerated into a commercial enterprise and cheapened into an exercise program or weight loss gimmik. A lot people join the industry to become teachers etc simply because it is big business, not out of any sincere intention to help people reach self-realization. A lot of Yoga teachers just take a course and are already teaching.

Therefore in order to preserve the purity of Yoga it is important to enforce regulations.

#25

I am really starting to see why the rest of the world hates the West as I converse more and more with Western people vis-a-vis other cultures.[/QUOTE]

Then you don’t have anything to say about yoga and are a bad representative of true Indian culture.
Hatred is based upon fear and ignorance. When you as you say ‘see why the world hates the west,’ you are part of that fear and ignorance. You have become the problem, not the solution.

I have many Indian friends, none of whom share your ‘understanding’ of hatred, and wouldn’t be weak enough to indulge in it.

You speak of preserving traditional yoga? Well LEARN IT. Instead of indulging in ignorant racial generalizations.

#26

Then you don’t have anything to say about yoga and are a bad representative of true Indian culture.
Hatred is based upon fear and ignorance. When you as you say ‘see why the world hates the west,’ you are part of that fear and ignorance. You have become the problem, not the solution.

Nope, it is about acknowledging a real attitude that exists towards the West. Indeed it is true, there exists a lot of hatred from non-Western cultures towards the West, and I can understand why the more I converse with Western people regarding non-Western cultures. My own professor said that world philosophy can only be taught under Western terms. The West historically have been arrogant and acted like they inherently superior and carry a burden to civilise other cultures. No surprises, why so many people hate the West and want to see its demise.

I don’t hate the West, but you could easily give me a reason to in the way you are writing to me. If you find it difficult to respect another culture, then that is very unfortunate.

Respecting another culture means that when you go there you have the courtesy to follow their civil code, and when you deal with their cultural forms, you respect their traditions. Otherwise, dont go there and don’t practice their cultural forms. Snatam Kaur should not be chanting “alleua” in a Hindu city, simply out of courtesy for the hosts. If you don’t get this, then sorry, it is unfortunate.

You speak of preserving traditional yoga? Well LEARN IT.

I have been doing so for the past 10 years. I probably know it much better than yourself.

#27

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54001]I think the deeper issue here is the new age bastardization of Yoga, leading to all kinds of bizaree Yogas appearing like Yingyang Yoga, Hot Yoga, Christian Yoga, Kabbalah Yoga etc.
Rather than preserving the traditional Yoga as the science of spiritual development it was suppose to be, and thus to be taken as a serious discipline. Like Kung fu is for self-defense. It is diluted, mixed with all sorts of stuff, weakening the discipline. Hence, I think it is important that there exists an official regulation of Yoga, to stop people from misapplying it.

I also agree that Shiva Rea should have respected the civil code of a place like Rishikesh, where dressing as she is use to is considered indecent exposure. Similarly, Snatam Kaur should not be saying “Alleua” in a Hindu city. It is like me going to the Mecca and saying, “Har har Mahadeva” or going to the Vatican and saying, “Allah-u-Akbar” Just because you’re a yogi does not exempt you from respecting the civil code of a place.[/QUOTE]

Most would say that MMA is more powerful and it’s clear that it is WAY more effective than traditional styles of Kung Fu. Kung Fu purists frequently enter into Mixed Martial Arts bouts to ‘bring back the pure form’, only to be quickly destroyed by a kid training in Mixed Martial Arts. Consequently, the evolved fighting style is fast becoming far more popular than the traditional styles, due to it’s no nonsense, effectiveness. It’s simply a more practical method. And all the traditional Kung Fu guys can do, is either evolve themselves, or just go back in their bedroom and practice the art they love. Same applies with Yoga. The traditions don’t necessarily apply to the majority in many countries. My family, and friends are all very happy, glowing, compassionate, loving, people who live life with passion and joy… what on earth are we going to do with a ‘path to liberation’ or ‘path to happiness’?? We having nothing in our lives to be unhappy about. We are grateful for every moment and the people in our lives. We do, however, need to maintain physical health, through cardio, weights, yoga, clean diet… Yoga has lost it’s traditional meaning, and that’s just tuff luck. You can’t control others or tell them how they should live, so just either evolve with the art, or shut up and go practice the traditional Yoga in your bedroom.

#28

I cannot say much on martial arts, because I am not an expert in the field. Perhaps MMA is an improvement on traditional styles of Kung fu martial arts. However, Western styles of Yoga are not an improvement on the traditional form. In most cases the differences are superficial as just doing the traditional asanas in a hot room(Hot Yoga) or changing the names of the asanas into Christian praises(Christian Yoga) So no improvement has actually been made by Western Yogis on Indian Yoga. Other forms of Western Yoga, such as Ashtanga Yoga is simply to isolate the asanas part of Yoga.

what on earth are we going to do with a ‘path to liberation’ or ‘path to happiness’?? We having nothing in our lives to be unhappy about. We are grateful for every moment and the people in our lives. We do, however, need to maintain physical health, through cardio, weights, yoga, clean diet…

Yoga deals with three kinds of suffering or stress that affects the human being: physical suffering or stress; emotional/mental suffering or stress and spiritual suffering or stress. As happy as you and your family claim to be, all of you are going to suffer from physical problems, emotional and mental problems, and life problems. Nobody is exempt from this suffering. Everybody is affected by the 5 vices of anger, lust, arrogance, hatred, jealousy to some extent or the other. Yoga is a full program designed to manage, and eventually eradicate all kinds of suffering from ones life. This is achieived by the 8 limbs of Yoga.

We do, however, need to maintain physical health, through cardio, weights, yoga, clean diet… Yoga has lost it’s traditional meaning, and that’s just tuff luck.

The word is degenerated.

You can’t control others or tell them how they should live, so just either evolve with the art, or shut up and go practice the traditional Yoga in your bedroom.

What I can do is argue for regulation, and if the argument for regulation becomes dominant, then yes we can control how you practice Yoga in public. What do you behind your closed doors of we cannot regulate. I can also make my opinion clear to you in public forums as well - which I am.

#29

I am reminded of the words of waysun Liao in his introduction to

‘the essence of tai chi’

you gotta read between the lines here a little bit now…

“It is when a person becomes serious in the study of T’ai Chi that the search for the authentic art, the temple style begins.”

#30

Did anyone take a look at the link I posted? Some have not. Shiva Rea herself and others who organized the event said she came dressed in pants and a tee shirt. There was nothing inappropriate about her dress. She followed the dress code.

This whole thing was blown out of proportion.

#31

Shiva Rea herself and others who organized the event said she came dressed in pants and a tee shirt.

Yes, but I think this dress code is appropriate in Western studios, but not in Indian studios. In Indian studios you are expected to dress up and cover. The other issue the Indian yogis had with Shiva Rea, from the article is her Yoga trance dance. Another issue is Snatam Kaur chanting “Alleua” They sound like relatively small things, but in intercultural discourse, it is often small things that prove to be the most offensive. In Japan, pointing your knife and fork in a certain way can be considered offensive.

#32

SD,

Did you look at the link and what people who were there wrote? This includes Indians.
From what was written she was covered up.

#33

Where there is smoke, there is fire. Why would the Indian Yogi have kicked up a fuss otherwise. I was not there, but from what I am guessing her attire and her trance dance was perceived as indecent by many people. It would not surprise me looking at her.

#34

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54052]Where there is smoke, there is fire. Why would in the Indian Yogi have kicked up a fuss otherwise.[/QUOTE]

Ego and the opportunity to garner press time and the spotlight on the back of this woman come to mind as one possible reason.

#35

This is from the International Yoga Festival Website:

Overview
The annual International Yoga Festival is organized jointly by the Uttarakhand Tourism and Parmarth Niketan Ashram in Rishikesh, India.

The Festival will take place from Monday 1st March to Sunday March 7’th, 2011.

For the last two years over 400 people from 30 countries have traveled to Rishikesh, India to experience one of world’s largest Yoga events.

During the one week Festival, you will have the opportunity to participate in over 60 hours of Yoga classes from world-class Yoga teachers practicing multiple styles of Yoga including Kundalini Yoga, Power Vinyasa Yoga, Iyengar Yoga and Kriya Yoga.
Please review the Presenters and Festival Program sections for further information.

The participants will also be blessed with the presence, satsang and divine words of revered saints and spiritual masters from within India, including H.H. Sri Shankaracharya Swami Divyanand Teerthji, H.H. Swami Chidanand Saraswatiji and H.H. Swami Veda Bharatiji.

Yoga is not merely for our bodies, but rather Yoga is for our bodies, minds, hearts and souls. Yoga literally means “Union” - union of breath with the body, of the mind with the muscles, and most importantly of the self with the divine. Yoga is not a religon. It does not require you to believe in a certain God or chant certain mantras.

Yoga is an ancient science which leads to health in the body, peace in the mind, joy in the heart, and liberation of the soul.

The International Yoga Festival explores the eight limbs of Yoga and how they apply to our lives whether we consider ourselves Yoga students or not.

Please join us as we breathe in the sights and wonders of India and meet one another on this path of discovery and awakening.

Shiva Rea was listed as one of the world class teachers. I think it is a shame what has been done to her. While I’ve not had the opportunity to meet her in person, everything I’ve heard and read about her confirms she is deeply spiritual and a good person who wants to share her knowledge of yoga with any and all. If the organizers wanted only Indian/Hindu presenters and teachers, Shiva and anyone else from the west would not have been invited.

For some reason this has really gotten my dander up. I don’t see that yoga has been bastardized at all. If people brand their own style, who’s to say they are doing only for recognition or financial benefit? Perhaps they really feel they’ve stumbled on to something. Built upon the yoga they had been taught. I teach a yin/yang yoga class and nothing I say to my students goes against any of the 8 limbs. The asanas we practice during class are all the standard ones. Very little if any variation.

And there are teachers out there who have been teaching for 20 + years who know little and some who have only been teaching a short time who know much. Much goes to dedication on your path.

#36

Yin/Yang is not Yoga. It is Taoism. There is a practice similar to Yoga in Taoism known as Qigong and Tai chi, but it is not Yoga. Those who want to learn Qigong or Tai chi need to find experts in Qigong and Tai Chi. Those who want to learn Yoga, need to find experts in Yoga.

Mixing them together does a disservice to both traditions. This is new-age habit of mixing everything is not enlightened, and even new-age spokespeople such as Terrence Mckenna have spoken against it - calling it the balkanization of reason.

#37

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54042]Yoga deals with three kinds of suffering or stress that affects the human being: physical suffering or stress; emotional/mental suffering or stress and spiritual suffering or stress. As happy as you and your family claim to be, all of you are going to suffer from physical problems, emotional and mental problems, and life problems. Nobody is exempt from this suffering. Everybody is affected by the 5 vices of anger, lust, arrogance, hatred, jealousy to some extent or the other. Yoga is a full program designed to manage, and eventually eradicate all kinds of suffering from ones life. This is achieived by the 8 limbs of Yoga.[/QUOTE]

I do understand what many eastern philosophies are trying to achieve… but there is another option. When suffering comes along, you can use the opportunity to become a stronger person. You can be an adult and except the hardships of life, and not have such unrealistically high expectations that everything should go exactly how I want it to go. Maybe Buddhism and Hinduism might have something to offer for people experiencing depression, but if you are happy, there’s little value. Hang around with happy people. You may learn that there is a whole different way of living that is free of any strict rules or philosophies, yet is still completely satisfactory. It more involves being grateful of the things you have, and being grateful of every moment. I don’t need a system of liberation, no matter how unhappy you think I am (which is just insanely judgement and ignorant by the way)… having said that, I do know fully well that all religions seem to have that same view, that anyone who is not part of our little club is either unhappy, or will be unhappy, or will receive some type of punishment for not agreeing with our little club.
I’m not against Hinduism and Buddhism, and if you feel that your life is missing something, or you don’t feel happy in general, and if eastern philosophy tends to help, than absolutely go for it, and I genuinely hope you do get a lot of benefit from it. I do like the idea of meditation and living in the moment… in fact if I was at all to describe my spiritual side, it would be that I want to live in the real moment, and not in the past, or future, or any type of fantasy land… but I certainly am happy enough, that I do not feel the need for a path to happiness… and I hope there are plenty more people that are satisfied with there lives. Death comes so fast, and it would be a tragedy to think that there are people out there who have not found inner peace and happiness.

#38

Yin/Yang is not Yoga.

While Yin is highly influenced by Taoism, Yang is not. And honestly, it is your opinion and matters little.

And I also find it interesting you made no comment about the rest of my post. Only about the style yoga I teach.

#39

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;54086]While Yin is highly influenced by Taoism, Yang is not. And honestly, it is your opinion and matters little.[/QUOTE]

As an aside,
Taoism is unity between yin and yang, which could be directly compared to union between ha and tha.

#40

Yes Terence, that is understood. My reference to my style was my attempt to make my point that one can teach or brand a style, but remain true to 8 limbs. My explanation could have been better. Yin/Yang Ha/Tha different words same meaning. Passive/active, sun/moon, male/female. Reference to yang was meant more in line with yoga.