Yoga row between Indian Yogis and Western Yogis

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#81

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54266]They are kept apart because Westerners lack respect for other cultures, do not have the courtesy to respect other cultures and their civil codes. We all know how unpopular British tourists are in other countries, and the mayhem they cause there. In India, Western people end up going to places like Goa, boozing and smoking ganja, and harrassing the locals.

In places like Thailand, Western people routintely go there and explot men, women and children there. I was rather shamlessly told by my British friend how he went to Thialand, and bedded Thai woman one after the other.

This is the story of the West vis-a-vis other cultures: exploit, exploit and exploit. Like I said, it is not suprisingly how much the West is hated in the world.

No need fighting with me, I am telling you facts about how Western people are perceived by the rest of the people of this world. Go over to my thread “Hindu persecution and ending it” in the religion forum to see exactly how depraved Western cultural intercourse(or rape) has been.
The West is a civilisation condemned by its history. Eventually, they are going to have to learn that with so much hatred they are allowing to brew from people in the world, they are going to be in deep trouble. They need to amend their ways now and stop exploiting other cultures and learn to cultivate respect - orthewise they will not only be a people condemned by history, but a people condemned by the future.[/QUOTE]

SD - If you are just going to post nonsense after nonsense then participation in your discussions will fall off, and as is typical with many of your discussions, a debate between you and one other poor soul.

There are as many idiots living in India that are praticing Hindi as there are idiot Westerners. There as as many exploitive Hindi living in India, and abroad, as there are exploitive Westerners. There are as many honest, spiritual Hindi living in India and abroad as there are honest, spiritual Westerners - even some who visit India.

#82

The magnitude is not the same of course. The West is widely recognised to exploit others cultures and civilisations in the name of “free trade” Most third world countries in the world are used as sweatshops by the West. Most Asian economies are nothing more than sweatshops. Even India, is nothing more than a glorified cheap labour market for the West.

Thousands of farmers commited suicide in India recently, due to the West forcing them to buy patened crops, which they grew themselves on Indian soil, at exorbiant prices.

We have to the face the facts. The West exploits the world. Similarly, we see exploitation of the cultural forms of other cultures. This is not nonsense, it is pure fact. It exploits, interferes, bulleys and invades other cultures on this planet. It was true during colonialism and it it is true today with the Iraq war.

#83

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54285]The magnitude is not the same of course. The West is widely recognised to exploit others cultures and civilisations in the name of “free trade” Most third world countries in the world are used as sweatshops by the West. Most Asian economies are nothing more than sweatshops. Even India, is nothing more than a glorified labour market for the West.

Thousands of farmers commited suicide in India recently, due to the West forcing them to buy patened crops, which they grew themselves on Indian soil, at exorbiant prices.

We have to the face the facts. The West exploits the world. Similarly, we see exploitation of the cultural forms of other cultures. This is not nonsense, it is pure fact. It exploits, interferes, bulleys and invades other cultures on this planet. It was true during colonialism and it it is true today with the Iraq war.[/QUOTE]

Total and utter dribble. India was very proficient at abusing her citizens long before Hannibal came traipsing over the horizon. In fact, I would venture to bet that India taught the West all they know about citizen abuse (and I know you know what I’m talking about).

I’m done here.

#84

India never abused her citizens, but treated them with respect, dignity and honour. There were even such notions as civil, women, human and animal rights, which did not appear in the West until the 20th century, and even then it was because of the contact with India and Western liberals learning from that.

We know how the West treated her citizens - inquisitions, witch burning and slave labour. The vast majority of the people lived as peasants, and this is why they eventually revolted.

Face it, the West was a barbaric culture. It did not even know the value of hygeine and sanitation until late medival times, after it was hit by plagues. People urinated and defeceated on the streets. Back then, travelling in Europe, was like walking down an open sewer. Compare this to India, which had sanitation systems, underground sewage systems and waste and disposal systems, daily ritual bathing as early as 3000BCE.

If you are going to be so open in insulting my civilisation, then I am going to likewise be open in insulting yours. And yours certainly deserves insults for the sheer inhumanity it has inflicted on the world. Slavery of Africans, extermination of Native Americans and South Americans, extermination of Australian Aborigines, and economic genocide against Hindus.

Your history condemns you.

#85

[QUOTE=Terence;54264]Unfortunately, the comments on this thread have led me to understand why Indians and tourists are kept apart in Indian ashrams.

This is a shame for my Indian friends who would never speak so rudely and ignorantly about someones parents.[/QUOTE]

Dear Terence ,

There seems to be some kind of mis-understanding!.. My comments were not on your parents, but in general (kindly read my post again, I’ve never quoted anything against your parents!). My apologies if I’ve hurt your sentiments unknowingly.

Kind Regards,
Shahvir

#86

I fail to understand where this thread is heading!!

#87

[QUOTE=b.shahvir;54322]I fail to understand where this thread is heading!![/QUOTE]

To the usual discussion that keeps repeating itself ,It also started with a probably made up story by a journalist desperately trying to fill up blank space with a story he had probably half written before he apparently reported this incident . Have you seen the movie groundhog day ? this is the forum equivalent . Still it fills a few minutes , keeps us away from whats really going on .
One day the right speech and understanding will lead us to the prajnaparamita whose words allay all pain suffering and we will hear and beleive its truth. errr maybe !

#88

Doesn’t sexism “affect the dignity of yoga”?

Why can Indian men do yoga in a loincloth and no one comments, while a woman wearing pants and a t-shirt is criticized for her skimpy clothes? Think of a famous Indian guru and look him up on Google images. You will soon be looking at his naked butt cheeks, but I doubt Yogi Ram would be offended.

#89

Sexism is not tolerable.

However, there are clear differences between a topless man and a topless woman. Even in the UK, a topless man walking about in the summer will not nearly raise as much fuss as a topless woman walking about. Women have sexy bodies naturally gifted to them, thus to prevent them being objectified, women need to be more prudent in what they wear. If they wear clothes that accentuate the contour of their butt cheeks, and t shirts which bring out their clevage, then this clearly is going to attract sexual attention. It for this reason, India, women wear traditional clothes which makes them look very elegant and beautiful, but does not draw attention to them sexually.

#90

[QUOTE=trinley;54392]Think of a famous Indian guru and look him up on Google images. You will soon be looking at his naked butt cheeks, but I doubt Yogi Ram would be offended.[/QUOTe]

Pls. do not sexualise everything, leave some things to common sense!

#91

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;53971]Actually I’m beginning to realize what I do may not actually be ‘yoga’. But unfortunately there is no such thing as ‘asanas’ There’s no asana classes or asana forums. I guess you could say I do asana instead of yoga… but in Australia… that’s what they call yoga anyway.[/QUOTE]

The correct technical term for asans is Hathyog

#92

[QUOTE=trinley;54392]Doesn’t sexism “affect the dignity of yoga”?

Why can Indian men do yoga in a loincloth and no one comments, while a woman wearing pants and a t-shirt is criticized for her skimpy clothes? Think of a famous Indian guru and look him up on Google images. You will soon be looking at his naked butt cheeks, but I doubt Yogi Ram would be offended.[/QUOTE]

Its a cultural issue. For example the traditional male dress in Kerala is a Mundu (dhoti) with the chest bare except for a strip of cloth called Angavastram. Women are generally fully clothed.

These perceptions come when we look at other cultures through the view point of the culture that we are used to. Several African cultures have the women not clothed on the chest. The africans view it as traditional while an Indian may not. :stuck_out_tongue:

#93

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54393] there are clear differences between a topless man and a topless woman.[/QUOTE]

I never mentioned toplessness. I wrote that a man can do yoga in a loincloth, while a woman is criticized for her “low-waisted” pants.

[QUOTE=b.shahvir;54395]Pls. do not sexualise everything, leave some things to common sense![/QUOTE]

I am not sexualizing. I am asking why women are being sexualized in pants while men are not being sexualized in loincloths. Women are no more ‘sexual’ than men. And the male body is no less ‘sexual’ than the female body.

What each person perceives as ‘common sense’ is only opinion and social conditioning.

#94

[QUOTE=trinley;54399]
What each person perceives as ‘common sense’ is only opinion and social conditioning.[/QUOTE]

Well then so be it!

#95

First of all, this is the culture of India. Western people going to India are going to have to respect the culture. If they do not like it, do not go.

Like I said, there are clear differences between the man’s body and the womans body. A topless man and a topless women walking about, will create different reactions. In India, a man wearing a dhoti is not perceived as sexual(in fact trust me, it is very unsexy) but a woman wearing tight pants and a t shirt can be perceived as sexual. Hence why for women we have traditional dress which is highly elegant and free to wear. This cultivates a sense of respect for women. A very popular saying in India goes, “a woman is somebodies daughter, mother, sister or wife” thus the cultural ethos demands that a woman be respected.

Western women are not often respected in India. Indian men peer at them like sex objects and consider them easy, but this is partly because Western women dress in ways that sexualise them. For this reason Western travel advisories advise Western women to dress up in India.

#96

Here in the UK, women parading themselves as sexual objects is a highly common activity. Every friday and saturday night in the city centre, I see women dressed in skimpy clothes accentuating their legs and breasts, walking about getting peered at by men and groups of men, and sexual advances made on them. It is not uncommon to see groups of men walk by a group of women and the men pinch their arse. This culture is internalized in the West.

I have recently become highly alienated by the discussions I use to have with my friends where we would report on every women that walked by, objectifying them and making lewd sexual gestures. Now when I go out and such discussions take place, I roll my eyes and find it really uncomfortable. This is because I now realise that we are doing is objectifying another soul. It is a form of exploitation and it makes me sick now.

#97

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54404]. This is because I now realise that we are doing is objectifying another soul. It is a form of exploitation and it makes me sick now.[/QUOTE]

The unfortunate embodied soul is exploiting herself…you need not feel sick or guilty about it, as you cannot control someone’s free will

#98

Indeed I cannot, but I can distance myself from such discussions. I have actually made a it a point to tell my friends now that I do not approve of those discussions.

These Western women are indeed objectifying themselves, but we are no better by encouraging it and acting lustfully.

#99

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54407]Indeed I cannot, but I can distance myself from such discussions. I have actually made a it a point to tell my friends now that I do not approve of those discussions.

These Western women are indeed objectifying themselves, but we are no better by encouraging it and acting lustfully.[/QUOTE]

The sad part is for these women (Western or Indian), objectifying oneself equals to freedom & liberation. This is indeed sad but true!

#100

I find it a sexist viewpoint that if a man has a problem leering, it’s the woman’s fault. It is sexist that women bear the brunt of accusation when it takes two to tango. When women are sexualized, men also participate in the sexualization! There would be no sexualization without the 2nd party who is looking at the woman with lust. Yet some men expect women to cater to their inability to control their desires. That is sexist manipulation.

I have been pinched and groped in India while wearing a kurti and jeans. I have never been pinched or groped (not even once) in a western country where I wear anything I want. My point in saying that is NOT that India is bad and the west is good. My point is this: whether a woman will be groped, pinched, leered at or sexualized has very little to do with what she chooses to wear that day.

Surya Deva, a topless woman only creates a stir in a culture where breasts are sexualized. As reaswaran pointed out, there are cultures where women go around topless and men think nothing of it, because breasts are not hidden and sexualized in these cultures. I find this to be evidence that what you perceive to be a clear difference in the female body is only a clear difference in how cultures [I]perceive[/I] the female body.

“a woman is somebodies daughter, mother, sister or wife”

I know that has some cultural importance for you, but it is only cultural and has no meaning to me besides stating the obvious. A man is somebody’s son, father, brother or husband.

My point as it relates to the OP is that it would be naive of us to say that the practice of yoga in India is, or ever was, pure and treated with 100% dignity, while in the west it is being perverted, sexualized and materialized. A culture will inevitably contribute the good and bad of that culture. As a result of sexism in India, women were excluded from yoga for centuries. Now women are free to learn about yoga along with men, but women are still subjected to scrunity over clothing, while men are not. And I find that to be sexist.