2 questions re: student troubles: Stiff sacroiliac joint and kurmasana difficulties

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

Hi teachers

Some questions about what to do with a couple of students. Hoping some of you will have some ideas.

Anyone know what to do about a stiff sacroiliac joint in the context of ashtanga? Is there anything dangerous I should especially watch out for outside of not pushing it?

Also - what to do in kurmasana when someone’s hip just doesn’t want to tilt backward (ie, the hip is fixed in a forward tilt) - therefore inhibiting their ability to reach the chest towards the ground. When the student is sitting on the ground with his legs apart, he can sit with his chest out and spine extended, as he starts leaning forward, he hits a point where he simply can’t go any further, but there’s no no stretch, no pain at all. His hamstrings are pretty long he can get into a forward bend with his legs together without any issues. Any ideas? It’s got me a bit stumped.

I’d appreciate some ideas if you’ve got some.

Thanks!

#2

[QUOTE=patanjali’s babe;64611]Hi teachers

Some questions about what to do with a couple of students. Hoping some of you will have some ideas.

Anyone know what to do about a stiff sacroiliac joint in the context of ashtanga? Is there anything dangerous I should especially watch out for outside of not pushing it?

Also - what to do in kurmasana when someone’s hip just doesn’t want to tilt backward (ie, the hip is fixed in a forward tilt) - therefore inhibiting their ability to reach the chest towards the ground. When the student is sitting on the ground with his legs apart, he can sit with his chest out and spine extended, as he starts leaning forward, he hits a point where he simply can’t go any further, but there’s no no stretch, no pain at all. His hamstrings are pretty long he can get into a forward bend with his legs together without any issues. Any ideas? It’s got me a bit stumped.

I’d appreciate some ideas if you’ve got some.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

i practice yoga over 10 years and teach yoga for quite a bit. Iyengar trained, studied some different styles and stepped aside fro yoga therapy now:)

If I were you… I wont do kurmasana with those people who can not do it:wink:

what is the reason you absolutely want to GET THEM INTO the turtle? what are the benefits? what are other more accessible poses that have the same benefits and the kurmasana?

first of all it discourages some students…make them feel impaired…
second… they can hurt themselves by pushing in to the pose…
and sometimes the “problem” lies withing the ANATOMY of the joints… some joints are not designed to move more in particular way…nod due to muscle tension, but the limited by the bone…illiacus or head of femur in this case… or maybe something else…

Some of my folks struggling with lotus - let them sit in the chair and IMPORTANT to explain WHY they can not do what they want to …

#3

City Monk

Thankyou for your response.

If you read carefully, you’ll notice my question is ‘what do to when…’. There’s no talk of ‘absolutely having to do’ anything.

You’ll also notice that I made sure there was no stretch, no pain. In his case, there’s no discomfort at all. Breath is good, he’s relaxed. And yes, I know how bone structures are different etc etc.

All that to say, you’re not dealing with a crazy pushy teacher here. Just someone that is after some ideas for useful modifications.

If the response of my teachers was say ‘no, don’t try, don’t do it, let’s just find something you [I]can[/I] do instead’ the moment I hit upon an obstacle, my teacher would have deprived me from a valuable opportunity in cultivating patience and persistence. I would never have learned that adopting a gentle and gradual approach work can help overcome seemingly insurmountable obstacles.

I understand the need to query ambition and attachment to ‘achieving’ poses. But I query the simply ‘not trying, and here’s a list of reasons why you probably can never do this pose so do something else’ approach. Giving up should be the last resort, not the first resort (within the boundaries of gentle practising)

I don’t mean to engage on this issue. I’m far more interested in hearing some helpful ideas. If anyone on this forum has any ideas, I’d be grateful to hear them.

Thankyou.

#4

and my questions were : what is the reason you absolutely want to GET THEM INTO the turtle? what are the benefits? what are other more accessible poses that have the same benefits and the kurmasana?

when you answer the question about more accessible poses this might be the answer to modifications you are seeking for…:wink:

in the original post there is a question “what to do with the hip if the hip does not want to go where it SHOULD”… sounds like the bone restriction that you are aware about…maybe a mental block…or something else…it is hard to advise without seeing the actual person…

your experience with encouraging teachers is YOUR experience…and it might or might not work with you current students…

#5

[QUOTE=patanjali’s babe;64611]Hi teachers

Some questions about what to do with a couple of students. Hoping some of you will have some ideas.

Anyone know what to do about a stiff sacroiliac joint in the context of ashtanga? Is there anything dangerous I should especially watch out for outside of not pushing it?

Also - what to do in kurmasana when someone’s hip just doesn’t want to tilt backward (ie, the hip is fixed in a forward tilt) - therefore inhibiting their ability to reach the chest towards the ground. When the student is sitting on the ground with his legs apart, he can sit with his chest out and spine extended, as he starts leaning forward, he hits a point where he simply can’t go any further, but there’s no no stretch, no pain at all. His hamstrings are pretty long he can get into a forward bend with his legs together without any issues. Any ideas? It’s got me a bit stumped.

I’d appreciate some ideas if you’ve got some.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

If you are teaching, the answers to your questions should be instinctual and instant. If not, you are in need of further training as you’re not best serving your students and practice.

It’s common for modern teachers to ask questions such as these, due to 30 day crash courses which are inadequate in preparing an aspiring teacher.

If you’re teaching school/board of certification has not prepared you for the above scenario, they have not trained you properly.

#6

I can answer only in the context of my practice and teaching. It is not however an Ashtanga context, which is what you ask.

Anyone know what to do about a stiff sacroiliac joint in the context of ashtanga? Is there anything dangerous I should especially watch out for outside of not pushing it?
The sacrum is a tricky chap. The proper mobility and all is well and good. Too much mobility and in the incorrect plane(s) and it’s havoc. If the joint itself is “stuck” then it’s likely the person needs some attention to their living, their breathing, their meditation, and their asana practice. In the latter, generally speaking, the sacrum should be at least 90? to the floor in seated postures AND (imho) it should not flow opposite the flow of the spine in any forward bend.

This last bit having been said, if the student cannot tip the pelvis anteriorly (forward) then doing this particular pose places connective tissue at risk in the very joint we’re efforting to nurture.

Additionally, under the topic of “watch out”, certain poses can jam the SI. Some of those involve external rotation of the hip. However it is not present in all bodies. Staying with this, standing poses beg to have the sacrum properly aligned and stabilized so that the issue is not exacerbated.

Deep twists should be avoided unless the student can maintain the rooting of sitting bones, movement of the sides of the waist into the frontal arm pits and lift in the pit of the abdomen.

Just as many students can be in padmasana but few of them are in padmasana from an opening in their hips, so too can a student be in paschimotanasana without a bona fide opening in the hamstrings. What would be more telling (for me) is “can this student catch the heel in supta padangusthasana” and how does she/he present in the other five movements in the hip series (a tool we use in our teaching and practice.

I hope this helps though I know it’s not an exact fit for the request as worded.

gordon

#7

The groin, hip flexors and quadriceps are important in the stability of the SI joint. Also the feet and ankles. Many of those with lower back issues will experience/have experienced an ankle injury at some point.

SI issues usually coincide with the literal experience of one leg being shorter than the other. If a practitioner can experience the full length of the leg, from the root of the leg, ie the hips and sacral spine, thus bringing the legs into alignment then this will greatly help. This requires full attention (meditation if you like) on the legs from the tips of the toes to the root of the leg, while performing the asana.

This can also be applied to the arms and shoulders in the same way.

I find that once the limbs are in alignment from their ‘root,’ ie hips and shoulders, alignment of the rest of the body falls into place with comparative ease.

Hard to express purely in words without demonstration.

#8

Gordon

Thankyou for your time. That answers my question rather helpfully.

#9

When it comes to Ashtanga, I have noticed that Kurmasana can become painful or difficult over time with regular practitioners. The stiffness in the sacroiliac joint is then due to muscle imbalance. I also have noticed that it doesn’t improve and leads to pain.
The hamstring will not lengthen because the stability of the SI-joint is compromised (Hamstrings stabilise the SI joint, along with the spinal and gluteal muscles)

This happened me, and others I know. For me this was because I developed a weak butt, a rather common side-effect of Ashtanga. I had pain so I went for Biokinetic treatment, which relieved the pain and restored flexibility in my hips and hamstrings. Others I know were not so lucky.

Not pushing it is important, but if any yoga practice makes a person feel stiff, or doesn’t improve their stiffness, then they need to ask themselves whether this what they should be doing to their bodies.
Repetitive practices do cause these kinds of problems, they are not suitable for everyone.

Sacroiliac stiffness is complicated subject, yoga often brings these kinds of problems out but the root causes are in a person’s body alignment, muscle habits from day-to-day activities and sports or previous injuries. As a teacher you have no control over this, it is up to students to find out why they experience those issues in their practice, with medical help, if necessary

#10

Building good technique from day 1 will strongly help prevent problems occurring.
Repetitive practice by themselves don’t cause these problems, its repetitive practice with misalignment and lack of awareness which does.

Not using the buttock muscle is common, which leads to compression and strain of the lumbar spine, especially in back bends. The Iyengar technique effectively remedies this.

It’s a teachers duty to help students to correct misalignment, heal old injuries and prevent new ones. To give them instruction that will permeate into all aspects of their day to day life. Yes it is up to the student, but if the teacher is not pointing them in the right direction they will not know.

#11

Terence

I couldn’t agree with you more. Unfortunately, this is something that many teachers don’t know themselves, and are not taught on their training courses. I’ve often cursed about the anatomical ignorance of teachers. What are your suggestions for a well-educated teacher?

#12

Just to clarify, the stiff SI joint question and the kurmasana question are two unrelated questions. They relate to two different people and are unconnected.

The stiff SI joint question has been dealt with by Gordon.

As for kurmasana, NONE of the modifications suggested in David Swenson’s book work because of the problem I described above. The student is a beginner to Ashtanga.

I know that if the yoga causes repetitive stiffness/strain/blood/it should be avoided. I’d like to emphasise that this is NOT the case.

Yes, I readily admit that my anatomical knowledge is not as it could be - my 500 +hrs of training probably wasn’t what it could have been… or my asana practise for that matter, or my knowledge of anything come to think about it - but I give what I have, and try where I can and never pretend to know what I don’t - which is why I come to this forum for occasional assistance. To learn, and share.

Thankyou to those that responded in the spirit of helpfulness and compassion - even to the ignorant and less experienced.

#13

People are treating your two questions as one because they tend to be related: what Gordon says is applicable in both cases. If a new student has those problems, asking them about other sporting activities may clarify the question for you.
If people have very strong legs from running, etc and their core muscles are weaker than their legs, they can have very limited hip flexibility and limited external rotation. How is he in Supta Konasana? Some people may just have quite poor core strength when they start Ashtanga.
Ordinary forward bends are easier than Kurmasana because the lower-back muscles are lengthening along with the Hamstrings. In Kurmasana, all the emphasis is on Inner Hamstrings, Adductors and Sacroiliac joint.
Pelvic movement will stop if there is not enough pelvic stabilisation by the hip, lower abdominal and lower back muscles. This is to protect the Sacroiliac joint and none of the modifications you try will work.
If he does have a strength imbalance, it may help him to focus on building his core strength with Bakasana, Parsva Bakasana, Salabhasana and similar and also work on Utthita Hasta Padangusasana with a level pelvis. I know that screws up an Ashtanga sequence, ask him to practice those asanas regularly at home in addition to his Ashtanga practice, and see if it helps.
I don’t know of any anatomical structural differences that would cause that kind of tightness in Kurmasana

#14

[QUOTE=nyx;64714]Terence

I couldn’t agree with you more. Unfortunately, this is something that many teachers don’t know themselves, and are not taught on their training courses. I’ve often cursed about the anatomical ignorance of teachers. What are your suggestions for a well-educated teacher?[/QUOTE]

I’ve met teachers who have studied Iyengar Yoga in Pune whose knowledge of anatomy, and ways in which to relieve chronic SI/lower back conditions, have been amazing. That would be a good place to start!

Yes, as you say many teachers are not taught these things on their training courses. Hopefully this will be remedied in future…

#15

Thanks, Terence
I’ll look into it.