A Sikh viewpoint of Yoga

Spirituality Religion
#16

Heaven is a destination place of the faithful. (faith, there’s that word again!) It is not a physical place but a spiritual place. It is outside the boundaries of human understanding. What the biblical authors tried to do was help us to understand in human terms what heaven is as it is a place of pure joy and freedom from suffering. I believe much of how heaven and hell is viewed is taken from Dante’s Inferno and Michaelangelo’s The Last Judgement.

This is all beside the point. The poem is beautiful and shows the universality of Yoga.

#17

Heaven is a physical place in Christian belief that you go to in your body. Hence all the hoo-haa about judgement day and the resurrection of our body.

This is not at all identical with the Hindu belief that all heavens and hells are just different levels of the mental planes and exist nowhere else but within the mind itself. They are projections.

#18

And you know this how? Because some christians told you?

There are christians out there who could better address this. I left catholicism 35 years ago. But my memory of sunday school classes was that the soul goes to heaven. Your spirit. Your body is merely a house for the soul.

#19

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36613]
However, Christianity does not teach the same at all. In Christianity you are taught that the goal of life is to go to heaven after this life, an actual place like Earth, where there are gardens, rivers and people to serve you. There god sits on a throne in his palace and Jesus sits by his side. This is based on good judgement by god, else you will go to hell, an actual place like Earth, where there is fire and brimstone, volcanos. The Muslims believe the same and in their heaven you get 72,000 virgins and nubile boys to serve mens desires(is heaven a brothel?)[/QUOTE]

I raised Catholic up til the age of 18. That meant Catholic gradeschool, middle school, and highschool with weekly attendance at Church. Never once was I ever taught that heaven and hell are actual places like Earth. And I can say with clarity that I never once was told that there will be servants for me.

#20

Thank you WakingUp! It means I’m not crazy! LOL!

#21

It is a widely recognised fact that Christianity teaches the doctrine of resurrection. I have already covered this in the first page of the thread, "Calm and rational discussion...." According to this, you and your body make up who you are. When you are connected back to your body at judgement day and pass judgement, you enter heaven in your body. So heaven is an actual physical place.

I will change my views if you can show me otherwise. Until then I am going to stick to what I already know.

Edit to add: Repost from other thread:

Namaste,
The belief in judgement day, and the resurrection of the body from the grave is a major belief of the Abrahamic religions.

Catholicism
Belief in the last judgment (sometime said universal judgment) is held firmly inside Roman Catholicism. Immediately upon death each soul undergoes the particular judgment, and depending upon the state of the person's soul, goes to heaven, purgatory, or hell. The last judgement will occur after the resurrection of the dead and the reuniting of a person's soul with own physical body[3].
The Catholic Church teaches that at the time of the last judgment Christ will come in his glory, and all the angels with him, and in his presence the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare, and each person who has ever lived will be judged with perfect justice. Those already in heaven will remain in heaven; those already in hell will remain in hell; and those in purgatory will be released into heaven.[/quote]

The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that there are two judgments: the first, or "Particular" Judgment, is that experienced by each individual at the time of his or her death, at which time God will decide where[4] the soul is to spend the time until the Second Coming of Christ (see Hades in Christianity). This judgment is generally believed to occur on the fortieth day after death. The second, "General" or "Final" Judgment will occur after the Second Coming.

Protestantism

Lutheranism

Lutherans do not believe in any sort of earthly millennial kingdom of Christ either before or after his second coming on the last day.[5] On the last day,[6] all the dead will be resurrected.[7] Their souls will then be reunited with the same bodies they had before dying.[8] The bodies will then be changed, those of the wicked to a state of everlasting shame and torment,[9] those of the righteous to an everlasting state of celestial glory.[10] After the resurrection of all the dead,[11] and the change of those still living,[12] all nations shall be gathered before Christ,[13] and he will separate the righteous from the wicked.[14] Christ will publicly judge[15] all people by the testimony of their faith,[16] the good works[17] of the righteous in evidence of their faith,[18] and the evil works of the wicked in evidence of their unbelief.[19] He will judge in righteousness[20] in the presence of all and men and angels,[21] and his final judgement will be just damnation to everlasting punishment for the wicked and a gracious gift of life everlasting to the righteous.[22]

Islam
In Islam, Yawm al-Qiyāmah "the Day of Resurrection" (Arabic: يوم القيامة‎) or Yawm ad-Din "the Day of Judgment" (Arabic: يوم الدين‎) is God's final assessment of humanity. al-Qiyāmah is also the name of the 75th sura of the Qur'an.
The sequence of events according to the most common understanding is the annihilation of all creatures, resurrection of the body, and the judgment of all sentient creatures. The time of the hour is not known, however there are Major[1] and Minor Signs[2] which, according to Islam, are to occur near the time of Qiyamah (Doomsday). Final judgment forms one of the main themes of the Qur'an. Many Qur'anic verses, especially the earliest ones, are dominated by the idea of the nearing Day of Resurrection.[3][4]

#22

It is meant in the spiritual sense, not the physical. Can you please take a pause and listen to what you are saying Surya? It is impossible to discuss with you. I honestly wish it wasn’t, but it is. Sad!

#23

I shall try and bring the thread back to track and another quote from fifth Guru, Guru Arjan Dev ji. This composition also sheds light on what according to Sikh Gurus is true Yoga. One can see that the ideas expressed are purely concerning the inner mind-state and constant communion with God, which is the aim of true Yoga.

GAUREE, FIFTH MEHL:
I came to the Guru, to learn the Way of Yoga.
The True Guru has revealed it to me through the Shabad(Word). || 1 || Pause ||
He ( the Lord) is contained in the nine continents of the world, and within this body; each and every moment, I humbly bow to Him.
I have made the Guru’s Teachings my ear-rings, and I have enshrined the One Formless Lord within my being. || 1 ||

I have brought the five disciples together, and they are now under the control of the one mind.
When the ten hermits become obedient to the Lord, then I became an immaculate Yogi. || 2 ||
I have burnt my doubt, and this for me is smearing my body with the ashes.
My path is to see the One and Only Lord.
I have made that intuitive peace my food; the Lord Master has written this pre-ordained destiny upon my forehead. || 3 ||
In that place where there is no fear, I have assumed my Yogic posture.
The unstruck melody of His Bani is my horn.
I have made contemplation upon the essential reality my Yogic staff.
The Love of the Name in my mind is my Yogic lifestyle. || 4 ||
By great good fortune, such a Yogi is met, who cuts away the bonds of Maya.
Nanak serves and adores this wondrous person, and kisses his feet. || 5 || 11 || 132 ||
( page 208 )

#24

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;36639]It is meant in the spiritual sense, not the physical. Can you please take a pause and listen to what you are saying Surya? It is impossible to discuss with you. I honestly wish it wasn’t, but it is. Sad![/QUOTE]

Namaste, in order not to derail the OP’s thread, I will make this the last post on this issue. You are an “isolated example” Mainsteam Christians and Christian scholarship do not agree with your new-age views. I have already proven this with Asuri attempt to show reincarnation in the bible and then posting what an official Christian body had to say on the matter. You take a lot of liberty in twisting what the bible says into what you want it to mean.

#25

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

#26

This is confusing me for some time now: what does it mean to be unblemished/pure. Of clear intention? Selfless? Detached from own needs?
Maybe its poetic term, like in the Bible language where there is love/hate attitude (either you love something or hate it, and if you love one thing you hate opposite). Is it unblemished/filth also poetic language to divide things between pure/desirable and filthy?

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;36603]What is a blemish? What is the filth of the world? How do you become cleansed, and what do you have to give up to achieve that (is Newtonian theory applicable in that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction)?[/QUOTE]

#27

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;36615]However, Christianity does not teach the same at all. In Christianity you are taught that the

Oh Surya, you are now showing how little you know of Christianity. I was raised Catholic. How you described heaven IS NOT the heaven of Christians. This is silliness! What you have stated in your above post has been taken way out of context. It is not meant literally. Oh my…[/QUOTE]

I agree with you. lotusgirl.

Christianity is a true good religion. How else can one explain the incorruptible bodies of the Christian saints ? Their bodies did not decompose after death for centuries:

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/library/gallery/incorrupt/incorrupt.htm

#28

Lostontheway must be repenting now for having brought in a new aspect to Yoga and Hinduism with a beautiful poem. That was real sharing and done modestly. However, with the entry of the intellectual shenanigans, its a demolition squad. But please don’t despair, after the dust settles on the winner’s empty trophy and the battle-cry retires into lonely weeping, the sincere sharing will begin. Let’s wait.

#29

[QUOTE=Pawel;36661]This is confusing me for some time now: what does it mean to be unblemished/pure. Of clear intention? Selfless? Detached from own needs?
Maybe its poetic term, like in the Bible language where there is love/hate attitude (either you love something or hate it, and if you love one thing you hate opposite). Is it unblemished/filth also poetic language to divide things between pure/desirable and filthy?[/QUOTE]

A blemished mind is that which is ensnared in Maya.
Maya can be understood to be as the power of attraction which things have upon human mind. These things can be both material as well as non-material prestige, relationships etc.
Maya also means veil which hides the true nature of things. Often the word Maya is mentioned in pair with the Moh (attachment) such as Moh-Maya. In fact moh-maya pair is used quite commonly in indian languages.
When human mind is ego oriented it has a strong sense separateness from the Creation. It is attracted by Maya which produces attachment.
This effect is the reason for the cycle of birth and death. The desire ‘to be’ consolidates the separate existence of mind and perpetuates the cycle of birth-rebirth. ‘Giving up’ releases one from this cycle and merges into divine.
Often our existence is compared to a wave in the ocean. Till the time wave has its own shape it is ‘somewhat’ separate from the ocean. When that shape is lost it loses itself back into the ocean.
Through the divine Grace, which comes through Guru one’s ego can be completely dissolved/removed. The path is of humility and surrender. No science or knowledge can help. For knowledge also produces egotism and hence is a part of Maya.

A composition by the third Guru is as follows:

What is called Maya? What does Maya do?
These beings are bound by pleasure and pain; they do their deeds in egotism.
Without the Shabad, doubt is not dispelled, and egotism is not eliminated from within. || 6 ||
Without love, there is no devotional worship.
Without the Shabad, no one finds acceptance.
Through the Shabad, egotism is conquered and subdued, and the illusion of Maya is dispelled.
The Gurmukh obtains the Treasure of the Naam with intuitive ease. || 7 ||
Without the Guru, one’s virtues do not shine forth; without virtue, there is no devotional worship.
The Lord is the Lover of His devotees; He abides within their minds.
They meet that God with intuitive ease.
O Nanak, through the Shabad, praise the Lord. By His Grace, He is obtained. || 8 || 4 || 21 ||
(page 67)

I don’t think I have covered everything.

#30

every member of the forums is entitled to express himself within the framework of the rules of the forums, one may ignore if it is against ones area of interest, but one must refrain to be personal, its not civic.
argue with all your might and give the devil its due. one must be honest with his belief and listen to other and learn from each others mind, belief and faith.

#31

[QUOTE=lostontheway;36606]I think it will be appropriate to point out the basic path of Sikhism.
The path of a Sikh (literal meaning of the word ‘Sikh’ is a learner, from the sanskrit word Shiksha or teaching) is path of bhakti(love and devotion). The method is of Naam Jaap (recitation of True Name with every breath waking and sleeping) and of Keertan (singing of hymns in praise of the Creator).

This path of Bhakti is essentially same as found in Hinduism. In fact let me also point out that Sri Guru Grantha Sahib (the living Guru, holy book containing all the verses of the Gurus) also contains compositions of 15 Hindu Bhaktas like Bhagat Kabir, Bhagat Ravidass, Bhagat Namdev etc.

Guru Nanak raised his voice against the outer ritualism and superstitions found in the society of the time. This included his holding dialogues with both Hindu Pundits as well as Muslim clerics/mullahs etc. These references are abundantly found in holy songs compiled in Sri Guru Grantha Sahib.

Now I come to basic definition of who a True Guru is. Guru Arjan, the fifth Guru in his long composition Sukhmani (Pearl of Sukh/bliss) says thus:

SHALOK:
The one who knows the True Lord God, is called the True Guru.
In His Company, the Sikh is saved, O Nanak, singing the Glorious Praises of the Lord. || 1 ||

ASHTAPADEE:
The True Guru cherishes His Sikh.
The Guru is always merciful to His servant.
The Guru washes away the filth of the evil intellect of His Sikh.
Through the Guru’s Teachings, he chants the Lord’s Name.
The True Guru cuts away the bonds of His Sikh.
The Sikh of the Guru abstains from evil deeds.
The True Guru gives His Sikh the wealth of the Naam.
The Sikh of the Guru is very fortunate.
The True Guru arranges this world and the next for His Sikh.
O Nanak, with the fullness of His heart, the True Guru mends His Sikh. || 1 ||
That selfless servant, who lives in the Guru’s household,
is to obey the Guru’s Commands with all his mind.
He is not to call attention to himself in any way.
He is to meditate constantly within his heart on the Name of the Lord.
One who sells his mind to the True Guru - that humble servant’s affairs are resolved.
One who performs selfless service, without thought of reward, shall attain his Lord and Master.
(Page 286)

So it can be said that the seat of True Guru is the highest, in fact even higher than God himself. Please understand this carefully because to a western mind it might be difficult to comprehend how something can be higher than the Creator of everything Himself. Kabir says:

Guru and Govind (a Name for Lord God) both stand in front of me,
Whose feet should I touch first?
I sacrifice myself onto my Guru, who merged me into Govind

As per the Sikh thought Guru is that aspect or power of the divine which becomes the channel for meeting the Timeless Being. In this sense there has always been only one Guru Power since the creation. Guru Nanak was manifestation of the same eternal power. This power is also known as Jot (flame) in Sikhism. This Jot was passed onto the subsequent 9 Gurus.

Parallel to this let me add another dimension to this concept. Even though Guru Nanak was a human being of flesh and blood, his physical body was NOT the Guru. The actual Jot resides in Naam (the true Name) which Guru bestows upon his Sikh. Therefore it is Naam which is the actual Guru.

The holy poems sung by Guru Nanak (he used to sing extemporaneously and a muslim devotee, Mardana used to accompany him on a Rabab, a musical instrument) are an extension and manifestation of the same Naam/Jot. Therefore the 10 physical bodies were actually never a Guru. The True Name and the holy verses were the actual Guru right from the beginning.

The Tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh before his death ordained that there would be no physical Guru after him and that Guru Grantha Sahib (the holy book which contains hymns of all the Gurus as well as many other Bhaktas) would be Guru for all times to come.

Therefore for a Sikh today Guru Grantha Sahib is the only Guru.

I might also add that in common parlance the word Guru may also be used for a teacher, but it is implied that it does not mean the True Guru or the Spiritual Guru.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for getting back to me. I am afraid I am not going to continue this discussion because I don’t want to get involved in yet another religious debate. I was hoping to simply learn more about the Sikh faith/ yoga, but it seems some people only use this forum as a religious hunting ground. :roll:

#32

Hi lostontheway, thanks for the explanation. Hope you wont mind me asking few questions to clarify how you understand those things:

You write about blemished mind. Is state of being blemished/unblemished applied only to mind or other levels of existence (e.g. body)?
By ensnared you mean sort of trapped? Without ability to find way out - see true nature of the world?
Is being blemished is then a matter of perception of the self and the world?

I like this analogy of existence to a wave in the ocean, but I find it also very confusing. In some sense it tells me that fact that I’m composed of atoms (physical or non-physical stuff I’m made of) is more important than what emerges from their configuration - my mind, emotions, personality etc. I find those emergent “properties” more important and “valuable” than the stuff they are composed of. Even if at the end everything will decompose back to this original state/matter.

Also, in this analogy with a wave, concept of liberation is unclear to me. A wave can’t be liberated. Water can’t be liberated. At some point wave will just dissolve back to the ocean and thats it. Wave will be gone, just memory. It will not come back because it failed to realize that it is made of water. Have you seen somewhere extension of this analogy to cover concept of liberation?

[QUOTE=lostontheway;36670]A blemished mind is that which is ensnared in Maya.
Maya can be understood to be as the power of attraction which things have upon human mind. These things can be both material as well as non-material prestige, relationships etc.
Maya also means veil which hides the true nature of things. Often the word Maya is mentioned in pair with the Moh (attachment) such as Moh-Maya. In fact moh-maya pair is used quite commonly in indian languages.
When human mind is ego oriented it has a strong sense separateness from the Creation. It is attracted by Maya which produces attachment.
This effect is the reason for the cycle of birth and death. The desire ‘to be’ consolidates the separate existence of mind and perpetuates the cycle of birth-rebirth. ‘Giving up’ releases one from this cycle and merges into divine.
Often our existence is compared to a wave in the ocean. Till the time wave has its own shape it is ‘somewhat’ separate from the ocean. When that shape is lost it loses itself back into the ocean.
Through the divine Grace, which comes through Guru one’s ego can be completely dissolved/removed. The path is of humility and surrender. No science or knowledge can help. For knowledge also produces egotism and hence is a part of Maya.

A composition by the third Guru is as follows:

What is called Maya? What does Maya do?
These beings are bound by pleasure and pain; they do their deeds in egotism.
Without the Shabad, doubt is not dispelled, and egotism is not eliminated from within. || 6 ||
Without love, there is no devotional worship.
Without the Shabad, no one finds acceptance.
Through the Shabad, egotism is conquered and subdued, and the illusion of Maya is dispelled.
The Gurmukh obtains the Treasure of the Naam with intuitive ease. || 7 ||
Without the Guru, one’s virtues do not shine forth; without virtue, there is no devotional worship.
The Lord is the Lover of His devotees; He abides within their minds.
They meet that God with intuitive ease.
O Nanak, through the Shabad, praise the Lord. By His Grace, He is obtained. || 8 || 4 || 21 ||
(page 67)

I don’t think I have covered everything.[/QUOTE]

#33

Nothing is emergent it is only appears to be as such because of appearances. Ultimately, one realises that all of reality is in fact the same substance. Everything else that exists is like a mirage, it appears as such by the way our minds interact with it, but it is not that. Now quantum physics backs this up as well.

#34

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36703]Nothing is emergent it is only appears to be as such because of appearances. Ultimately, one realises that all of reality is in fact the same substance. Everything else that exists is like a mirage, it appears as such by the way our minds interact with it, but it is not that. Now quantum physics backs this up as well.[/QUOTE]

But even if emergent phenomena do not exist independently, they are very specific and are “real” for us. For example humans. Now I know that our bodies are made of the same stuff. Maybe even our consciousness is made of the same thing. But where you could see blob of atoms (putting effort to avoid seeing appearances) I see both, blob of atoms but also a human person. This is a source of my confusion: why seeing water makes you more advanced that someone seeing both water and waves (and knowing that waves are made of water)?

#35

Yes, they are real for us. But so is the mirage.

If the mind is in x state of consciousness it sees y reality. If the mind is in an absolute state of consciousness then it sees absolute reality. It has been verified over and over again by mystics in all places and all time periods. Even modern physicists like Capra affirm that when entering into deeper states of consciousness, one can see finer reality. Capra attests to have seen the creation and destruction of atoms, which he called the dance of Shiva. This is what is meant by the world being “maya” that ultimately what it appears to be is not what it really is. At the fundamental it is pure vibrating consciousness and pervaded by cosmic intelligence.