A value of a struggle to count breaths

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

Hi Sasha,
Yes, its very nice forum! :slight_smile: You never know what you will get as an answer - but you learn a lot!

By struggle I don’t mean getting sweaty trying to continue counting. But in general just acting against what is happening. When you realize that your you drifted away and you gently bring yourself back to meditation object it is struggle. You act against what is happening - this drifting away. So I guess struggle may be good or bad - depending on phase of meditation.

I forgot about LD’s. Funny thing: I had those when I wanted to have them. When I was motivated. When I tried to “go back” and have some more, but without clear motivation, I didn’t have them. Do you have such relation between motivation and some experiences during meditation?

[QUOTE=Sasha;41282]Pawel, struggle is not good (in particular, for meditation), as Yulaw and other practitioners mentioned in their posts above.
Gentler approach may lead you to the smooth counting, but my opinion is that its too abstract method. It brings distraction easily, having no connection to anything (although, according to your post, it is OK for you). Thats why many people use it to fight (again, harsh method;)) insomnia.
Returning to lucid dreaming I must admit that best LDs I had in the day-time after hard training sessions. They are quite specific, they call it "out-of-body-experience". But ordinary dreams and LDs indeed happen more often in the morning.

P.S. What a nice forum - everyones giving advices even if you didnt ask for it.:slight_smile:
It`s OK, though, atmosphere of mutual help and solidarity, so to speak.;)[/QUOTE]

#22

[QUOTE=CityMonk;41288]I usually “set up” the “goal” say 100 breath. and assume that all thought will disappear after say 50 or 100th breath… or “set up” to wake up after 200 breath. It works very good.[/QUOTE]

Hi CityMonk!
Thats interesting! So its sort of alarm clock? You loose count but its happening in the “back”? I assumed that when I loose count it means “area” of my brain responsible for counting stops working (falls asleep?) but if thats the case it may be rather that my awareness breaks connection with this “area”.

I may sound sometimes bit “organic” and talk about brain, but I got really interested in connection between brain and mind. Especially since I read that during lucid dreams you can’t control brightness and most likely its linked with activity of visual cortex. If activity is low its really dark. And when you start to wake up the dreams get brighter and brighter. Thats amazing. Such simple relation.

#23

Hi Charlie,
Thanks for explanation. I got what you mean now.

On the side of the subject:

You know, recently I have some thoughts in this subject of ego and our relationship to it. Maybe its because I usually side with weaker one, but I sometimes feel sad when I read how people write/talk about ego. How they treat it with lack of respect and love. Its like a container for all dark stuff we want to “pin down” to something. I don’t know if you have such attitude (because you wrote about “lovingly watch its nature”) but I got bit sad reading sometimes texts with “bad dog! attitude” toward ego.

Yesterday I had interesting experience. Going to bed I was thinking about physical body and death. I thought, that when I die, I won’t be as fully present as now, with my physical body. That now, as lost as I am, I’m spanning through all levels of existence - from physical matter to spirit. I thought then, that in that case, I would like to use this time, this opportunity, my body, to experience full life. To experience fully this opportunity with my body included into “spiritual” scheme of things. Moment later I felt a great wave of sadness, of regret. I wasn’t expecting that! I guess that it was because through this act I was connecting with my body which felt very disowned by me floating somewhere in “spiritual heavens”. Seems that at some point I dissociated my body (which is very easy and sometimes expected by some religions/spiritual systems).

Maybe I’m so sensitive to “criticizing” ego because I don’t want to make similar mistake. I wouldn’t want to separate from my ego but rather to take it with me on this journey. Sorry as well if I’m stating “bleedn obvious” :wink: (or maybe incorrect things?)

[QUOTE=charliedharma;41299][QUOTE=Pawel;41239]
Hello Pawell ,
what I mean by ego mind is what in yoga is called the ahamkara ,the sense of I am -ness , the sense of us being a seperate entity , often fixed in opinions , self regard etc , The part of the mind that wants to organise , be in charge , that wants to compare wants to judge by comparison between this and that , aversion and attraction , that wants to plan , strategise , to see results from something like a yoga practise , a mind that dwells in the past or projects into the future , taking us away from our present experience.
I was suggesting that counting is used to give this part of the mind awareness( Not my original thought of course )something to do as it likes to feel important so that we dont get drawn into the projections and comparisons , the ego is too preoccupied counting. By being aware of when this ego mind starts it strategy of taking control we can lovingly watch its nature and slowly (or instantly for the few) we can be free from its tyranny,
when we drop the counting we can watch the ego or give it no attention and it will cease to have hold on us , and like an ignored irritant disappear.
Thus we may move away from being polarised to a sense of oneness ,connection to the divine , etc.
essentially the counting can be usefull technique for some , it often shows how difficult it is to sit and count ten breaths without becoming distracted by some hindrance wanting to take us away from a more authentic ,present experience. If you find it helps in savasana then it must be helping. However
im not sure there is great value in persisting with counting as an aid to concentration , it sounds a bit too much like doing something.
I hope ive answered your question , and havent stated the bleedin obvious.
yours in yoga[/QUOTE]

#24

Pawel,
Motivation certainly makes a great influence on everything.
Trying to meditate (have LDs or anything else) inertially, without feeling it, is almost non-efficient. Sitting in padmasana and thinking about donuts is not a meditation:). And thats an interesting thing you wrote about brightness in dreams…
I noticed this too, but I`m not sure it always happens that way.
Right you are not to fall into extremes (here: in relating to ego and body).
Mistake is in identifying yourself [U]only[/U] with these.

#25

pawell , from a few possibly realised people that i have heard speak or have read about in relationship to ego , they all say that a sense of ego can remain , after all to operate in a dualistic world without this would be extremely difficult . For example the Buddah felt sadness when any of his close friends died . The thing about our ego is that it wants to be a dictator to blind us to whats really going on . My teacher talks about its wmd s (weapons of mass destruction ). I have also heard the phrase leave room in the heart for the uninvited guests . We can enjoy the ego as well although the pleasures are no doubt transient , we can enjoy and lovingly watch the mind the fantastical areas the ego mind take us too . its all fine , and often terrifying to let the ego lessen its its hold .

#26

I found that counting breaths beyond three, results in my mind wandering. Sub conscious counting was going on and at the same time thinking was also going on. Since last two years, I stuck to counting only up to three. When I get to three, I restart from count one. I find it to be very effective in holding the mind on breathing process. In a broader sense, ‘Focusing on breathing’ is a very effective technique for training the mind to stay on the allotted task, whatever it may be. I have developed two modes of using the fingers to aid in ‘focusing on breathing’ which work even for 5 year old children. The simplest mode of using the tips of fingers to track the breaths in sets of three, is described below -

**** “Touch the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger and breathe three times. Repeat this at each of the tips of the next three fingers. At the thumb, place the tip of the index finger at the base of the thumb and breathe three times. Then switch to the other hand and repeat the same practice. Continue this practice, switching the hands as long as you wish.’****

Other modes of ‘focusing on breathing’ - Segment mode, Counting mode, Feeling mode, Starting mode and (911) mode are described in my web site.

I practiced one or more of the modes intermittently for brief periods, throughout the day and also during my meditation, which I have been doing for an hour to hour and half since last 10 years. After about two years of this practice, the nature of my mind changed radically. Hardly any wandering and practically no negative thoughts. I can’t believe it is my mind!