Hi Folks,
I have a question on meditation.
Recently I meditate in savasana, counting breaths. After some time (between 20 and 200) I loose count - images and thoughts trick me and pull my focus. I know in which “decade” I’m in (e.g. somewhere between 60 and 70), but don’t know exactly which number. So I start from last “decade”. And repeat it several times before letting go of counting - so for some time its like a game to not let myself to be tricked by images. My question is: is there a value in this persistence in counting? When I meditate in sitting pose I don’t get to this point of problem with counting. But I was thinking that this struggle is a good practice in concentration. You have any thoughts in this matter?
Yes counting is supposed to help train the ego mind . it gives the ego something to keep it occupied helps it stop straying off to the usual places taking us away from our present experience.
when i meditate I sometimes count 10 breaths and then start again at 1 , but if I feel relatively focussed and undistracted i would just drop the counting and watch the breath
thats if i was doing minfulness of breathing meditation.
I have never counted in savasana my first thought is that you might be concentrating on the counting rather than watching your experience , but i could see how it may help in the process .
Pawel,
You are addressing different things in one go - ‘Meditation’, ‘Savasana’, ‘Counting’ and ‘breath’. A good look at them may resolve your question of placing proper value in each. Savasana starts of as melting and dissolution of physical awareness. We need that for consciously anchoring in the subtle domain to facilitate meditation. So we meditate on subtle images until reaching a stage of ‘no images’. One of the subtle things as handy target of meditation is breath. So, breathing ordinarily an automated function is brought under conscious control.
Counting, to me, is an odd thing out, at best only an initial help. It is a rational brain activity that needs to be suspended in all the above. When you loose count, it may be that you are simply slipping into sleep. (Sleep is regarded as a mind-state to be avoided, since Yoga states need to be reached fully consciously.) It would get a little tricky, becuase similar loss of awareness occurs in meditation. So, it is advisable to remain conscious of breath, a dependable non-intrusive body function.
Lastly, talking of counting as a welcome struggle in concentration, in my view it is an unnecessary drag. A struggle that may help in concentration is between being aware of thoughts and wanting not to have any. Hope this helps you.
[QUOTE=Pawel;41196]Hi Folks,
I have a question on meditation.
Recently I meditate in savasana, counting breaths.
[/QUOTE]
As far as I know, counting helps focusing.
But one can concentrate on breath in other ways: just following the inhslstion
(cold air), retention of breath (kumbakha), and exhalation (hot air). To focus attention on breath, not on counting, you can repeat a mantra, eg Hong at inhalation and Sau at exhalation. Equivalent is the So Ham.
How are you defining “meditate” here Pawel, specifically in your example of the counting in the supine position?
[QUOTE=Pawel;41196]Hi Folks,
I have a question on meditation.
Recently I meditate in savasana, counting breaths.
[/QUOTE]
All meditation techniques I have seen so far were with the spine straight vertically, in lotus or on the chair.
Thanks for all answers,
@charliedharma: What you mean by “ego mind”? And how it relates with point of focus? I thought that its rather this point of focus that is used during counting. I also drop counting at some point and watch breath and body sensations (as next stage). But I try to see this counting also as my real experience. Not less real from e.g. my body sensations. I’m counting – and that is my experience I’m focusing on.
@Suhas Tambe: Thanks for info. I used savasana just as to describe physical posture during meditation – without other context of melting of physical awareness. I totally agree with picture you gave about meditation in general. But my question is just about this specific stage of meditation when you are losing ability to count. I can’t say whether its falling into sleep or not – I never fell asleep at this state.
In some sense I don’t want to learn what value should I put to this struggle to count. But rather to find out what does it “give” you in short and long run.
@Oak333: What is interesting is that concentration on breath is different from concentration on counting the breath. I’m losing ability to count but still I can easily focus on my breath. Seems part of the brain responsible for counting “switches off” before and has to be reinitiated to continue. And I have to reach to my memory to recall where I was before and restart counting. Funny thing is that at some point of this struggle I can’t count more than 3 breaths without “falling off”. Thats really funny – I feel “normal” but can’t count to 3 
@IA: At this stage I would define meditation through what is happening: as relaxing yourself and trying to focus on breath and count them. You mean definition using ultimate aim of meditation?
I would like to offer is to find enjoyment in your practice. Even though it may be tough at times, daily meditation can greatly enhance your life. Don’t rate yourself and expect to progress or improve to a particular degree or within a particular timeframe.
Thanks Marina! I’m about to sit to meditate - today attitude will be joy of practice!
Pawel, this method is good for lucid dreaming. 
Seriously, it`s important not to fall asleep before and during meditation.
Obviously, Savasana makes you too relaxed, so sitting meditation after it may be more appropriate.
By the way to previous posts, I find it helpful to imagine clearly what is the goal (of meditation here) and how it will be reached.
I don’t know if this will help, but I do alternate nostril breathing (Nadi Sodhana) and count the seconds of breathing rather that counting my actual breaths.
I started off with 4 seconds inhale, and 8 on the exhale, through each nostril, but I eventually found that 6/12 is my personal ‘number’.
This keeps me fully focused and also trains my mind.
I do 12 rounds twice daily.
@Sasha:
I tried lucid dreaming some time ago (same technique, 1h before your normal waking up time). I started to see vivid colors but dropped after few days. I was sleepy during the day.
@Nobody:
I’m not sure if I was clear stating the question: its not a problem for me but just a question. When I stop counting during this struggle I move on to next stage of meditation. I was just wondering about this exact phase of struggle with counting.
[QUOTE=Pawel;41265]@Nobody:
I’m not sure if I was clear stating the question: its not a problem for me but just a question. When I stop counting during this struggle I move on to next stage of meditation. I was just wondering about this exact phase of struggle with counting.[/QUOTE]I see. If you are moving on to the next stage in your meditative practice, then counting your breaths have served the purpose.
If you find that your mind is starting to wander, you need to bring your awareness back to your breathing again, starting the count all over if necessary…as long as the focus is there.
First I have to say I have not read every single post in this thread so you may have already read this and I apologize to all who have posted before me for not reading what you have written. Actually I am sick today and reading is giving me a headache? which then bids the question (from myself) why the heck am I posting at all
[QUOTE=Pawel;41196]Hi Folks,
I have a question on meditation.
Recently I meditate in savasana, counting breaths. After some time (between 20 and 200) I loose count - images and thoughts trick me and pull my focus. I know in which “decade” I’m in (e.g. somewhere between 60 and 70), but don’t know exactly which number. So I start from last “decade”. And repeat it several times before letting go of counting - so for some time its like a game to not let myself to be tricked by images. My question is: is there a value in this persistence in counting? When I meditate in sitting pose I don’t get to this point of problem with counting. But I was thinking that this struggle is a good practice in concentration. You have any thoughts in this matter?[/QUOTE]
Pawel
Stop counting breathes
Counting breathes is how you start. First you could each inhale and exhale as (Inhale) 1, (exhale) 2 and you do this until you can get to 10 without distraction. If you find you are distracted or thinking about something other than counting before you get to 10, acknowledge the distraction, and let it go then return to 1 and start counting breathes again.
After you are able to count you inhalations and exhalations up to 10 without distraction then switch to counting an inhale and an exhale as 1; (inhale + exhale) 1, (inhale + exhale) 2 and again work to 10. If you get distracted before you get to 10 then go back to 1 and start over ad just like you did before, acknowledge the distraction, and let it go. After you can get to ten easily without distraction stop counting and just sit, and breathe
Do not fight your thoughts (distractions) do not try and force them to stop just acknowledge them and let them go.
Hi Yulaw,
Thanks for advice. I will just shortly explain since you didn’t read all posts: I’m not looking for advice how to proceed with meditation, but rather I’m searching for info about effects of a struggle in counting breath during deep relaxation (possibly on verge of sleep). How it affects your mind in short/long run. You can guess that it increases concentration but its just guessing and maybe someone knows something specific.
Hope you will feel better soon. I’m sick as well - luckily its just cold.
Pawel, struggle is not good (in particular, for meditation), as Yulaw and other practitioners mentioned in their posts above.
Gentler approach may lead you to the smooth counting, but my opinion is that its too abstract method. It brings distraction easily, having no connection to anything (although, according to your post, it is OK for you). Thats why many people use it to fight (again, harsh method;)) insomnia.
Returning to lucid dreaming I must admit that best LDs I had in the day-time after hard training sessions. They are quite specific, they call it "out-of-body-experience". But ordinary dreams and LDs indeed happen more often in the morning.
P.S. What a nice forum - everyones giving advices even if you didnt ask for it.
It`s OK, though, atmosphere of mutual help and solidarity, so to speak.
[QUOTE=Pawel;41196]Hi Folks,
I have a question on meditation.
Recently I meditate in savasana, counting breaths. After some time (between 20 and 200) I loose count - images and thoughts trick me and pull my focus. I know in which “decade” I’m in (e.g. somewhere between 60 and 70), but don’t know exactly which number. So I start from last “decade”. And repeat it several times before letting go of counting - so for some time its like a game to not let myself to be tricked by images. My question is: is there a value in this persistence in counting? When I meditate in sitting pose I don’t get to this point of problem with counting. But I was thinking that this struggle is a good practice in concentration. You have any thoughts in this matter?[/QUOTE]
I do same practice almost every afternoon to get recharged. Counting helps to mmm…lets say… focus on nothing…?.. as I count I drift away… I still counting on the “back of my mind” but at the same time drifting away.
I usually “set up” the “goal” say 100 breath. and assume that all thought will disappear after say 50 or 100th breath… or “set up” to wake up after 200 breath. It works very good.
Yes, in my opinion, there is a value on counting. As long as it counts easy:) Breath and count are very good tools for meditation, relaxation, hypnosis, LD and etc. It is very good tool and lucky you you found this way!
It seems like i’ve lost a count sometimes, but as you mentioned ususally aware of the decades… so just start to count from there again.
I do not really care what is that called meditation or savasana, but is seems like a good technique.
Love,
CityMonk
[QUOTE=Pawel;41281]Hi Yulaw,
Thanks for advice. I will just shortly explain since you didn’t read all posts: I’m not looking for advice how to proceed with meditation, but rather I’m searching for info about effects of a struggle in counting breath during deep relaxation (possibly on verge of sleep). How it affects your mind in short/long run. You can guess that it increases concentration but its just guessing and maybe someone knows something specific.
Hope you will feel better soon. I’m sick as well - luckily its just cold.[/QUOTE]
That I can’t tell you, I never count past 10 and these days I don’t count, I just sit and breathe… well… actually… today I sit and cough 
I hope you feel better soon
[QUOTE=Pawel;41239]Thanks for all answers,
@charliedharma: What you mean by ?ego mind?? And how it relates with point of focus? I thought that its rather this point of focus that is used during counting. I also drop counting at some point and watch breath and body sensations (as next stage). But I try to see this counting also as my real experience. Not less real from e.g. my body sensations. I?m counting ? and that is my experience I?m focusing on.
Hello Pawell ,
what I mean by ego mind is what in yoga is called the ahamkara ,the sense of I am -ness , the sense of us being a seperate entity , often fixed in opinions , self regard etc , The part of the mind that wants to organise , be in charge , that wants to compare wants to judge by comparison between this and that , aversion and attraction , that wants to plan , strategise , to see results from something like a yoga practise , a mind that dwells in the past or projects into the future , taking us away from our present experience.
I was suggesting that counting is used to give this part of the mind awareness( Not my original thought of course )something to do as it likes to feel important so that we dont get drawn into the projections and comparisons , the ego is too preoccupied counting. By being aware of when this ego mind starts it strategy of taking control we can lovingly watch its nature and slowly (or instantly for the few) we can be free from its tyranny,
when we drop the counting we can watch the ego or give it no attention and it will cease to have hold on us , and like an ignored irritant disappear.
Thus we may move away from being polarised to a sense of oneness ,connection to the divine , etc.
essentially the counting can be usefull technique for some , it often shows how difficult it is to sit and count ten breaths without becoming distracted by some hindrance wanting to take us away from a more authentic ,present experience. If you find it helps in savasana then it must be helping. However
im not sure there is great value in persisting with counting as an aid to concentration , it sounds a bit too much like doing something.
I hope ive answered your question , and havent stated the bleedin obvious.
yours in yoga
[QUOTE=charliedharma;41299][QUOTE=Pawel;41239], the sense of us being a seperate entity , often fixed in opinions , self regard etc , The part of the mind that wants to organise , be in charge , that wants to compare wants to judge by comparison between this and that , aversion and attraction , that wants to plan , strategise , to see results from something like a yoga practise , a mind that dwells in the past or projects into the future , taking us away from our present experience.[/QUOTE]
Nicely said!
But I don’t think that this kind of breaths counting tends to organize anything;) It helps to spot the mind from jumping from one thought to another one.