Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, “The flag moves.” The other said, “The wind moves.” They argued back and forth but could not agree. Hui-neng, the sixth Patriarch, said: “Gentlemen! It is not the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is your mind that moves.” The two monks were struck with awe.
[QUOTE=CityMonk;46839]Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, “The flag moves.” The other said, “The wind moves.” They argued back and forth but could not agree. Hui-neng, the sixth Patriarch, said: “Gentlemen! It is not the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is your mind that moves.” The two monks were struck with awe.[/QUOTE]
where’s the koan?
Indra Deva,
What don’t you see in the above Koan?
The above is a statement from a master presumably to a student with the purpose of opening up the mind of the student and their perception of the truth. This is what a Zen Koan is and to me, it seems to fit! Is there something I’m not seeing?
Perhaps Yulaw will see this and comment as he is pretty well versed in Zen and Zen Koans.
Koans aren’t usually given out with an answer.
Correct Scales, they usually don’t give out “logical” answers. Logical is the key. The logical answer would be the wind moves the flag. It is not “logical” to think that it is the mind that moves. Hence, wouldn’t it be a Koan?
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;46853]Correct Scales, they usually don’t give out “logical” answers. Logical is the key. The logical answer would be the wind moves the flag. It is not “logical” to think that it is the mind that moves. Hence, wouldn’t it be a Koan?[/QUOTE]
perhaps
A koan is simply something that shocks the mind into awareness. it can a question, a statement or it can be a physical act or somethig observed. The koan in the physical act or the observation is the story of those things
They are arguing about what is moving the flag or the wind and both are convinced they are right until the master tell them it is neither, it is their mind that moves? this is the shock, the derailment of the mind kind of thing that gives them a sudden awareness or simply a different point of view they had not considered and any of those could be the shock to te mind that made them aware
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;46851]Indra Deva,
What don’t you see in the above Koan?
The above is a statement from a master presumably to a student with the purpose of opening up the mind of the student and their perception of the truth. This is what a Zen Koan is and to me, it seems to fit! Is there something I’m not seeing?
Perhaps Yulaw will see this and comment as he is pretty well versed in Zen and Zen Koans.[/QUOTE]
That’s more of a Zen story than a koan. Koans are supposed to induce an illuminating or enlightening “brain fart”, they shouldn’t really have the solution right in them. Plus, they’re more for the person hearing them, not for us centuries later. The student asks the master a question, the master is moved from the potentiality of the Void to say something, that enters the consciousness of the student and they both touch the void. It’s part of the student-teacher relationship that the teacher will help the student to achieve no-mind.
(based on my experience, sorry if it doesn’t really make sense)
I do like that story, though, it’s one of my faves.
I like this one:
Three yogis are meditating in a cave. One day, an animal walks by the cave. A week later, one of them says,"Did you guys hear that goat?"
Six months later, another say,"That wasn’t a goat, that was a donkey."
A year later the third say,“If you guys don’t shut up, I’m leaving!”
[QUOTE=Indra Deva;46914]That’s more of a Zen story than a koan. Koans are supposed to induce an illuminating or enlightening “brain fart”, they shouldn’t really have the solution right in them. Plus, they’re more for the person hearing them, not for us centuries later. The student asks the master a question, the master is moved from the potentiality of the Void to say something, that enters the consciousness of the student and they both touch the void. It’s part of the student-teacher relationship that the teacher will help the student to achieve no-mind.
(based on my experience, sorry if it doesn’t really make sense)
I do like that story, though, it’s one of my faves.[/QUOTE]
But the solution is not in it… he did not give them a solution…he gave them something else to think about… something else to shock their mind… kind of like the answer Mu. We may view it as a solution and it may be… but how does the mind move the flag or the wind?
Sometime being to literal can be a problem when talking Zen Koans?. Example the Bart Simpson solution to what is the sound of one hand clapping? it is an answer but it tends to miss the point? that is if there is actually a point to miss
So Yulaw, would you say that the initial “Zen Koan” is indeed a Koan?
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;46930]So Yulaw, would you say that the initial “Zen Koan” is indeed a Koan?[/QUOTE]
I believe it is, but I am certain there are those that do not agree with me but I’m ok with that
:)) hahaha
[QUOTE=Yulaw;46928]But the solution is not in it… he did not give them a solution…he gave them something else to think about… something else to shock their mind… kind of like the answer Mu. We may view it as a solution and it may be… but how does the mind move the flag or the wind?
Sometime being to literal can be a problem when talking Zen Koans?. Example the Bart Simpson solution to what is the sound of one hand clapping? it is an answer but it tends to miss the point? that is if there is actually a point to miss :D[/QUOTE]
it’s not such a “mind is causing things to move”, not really much about the flag or the wind. It could have been anything, arguing about water boiling or fire boiling the water, or fuel making the flame boiling the water… when the mind is drawn out and two students are debating about trivialities in such an obvious dependent arising relationship involved in a flapping flag, the master tells their minds to “shut up”, for lack of a better term.
Or that’s my take, anyway.
Here’s one for ya:
These two penguin hobos are riding in a train car at night. The younger of them is enjoying the view of the night sky from the open train car door and edges closer to the opening.
The older one says,"You better be careful, you might fall out."
The young penguin ignores him and goes to stand in the doorway.
"The train is speeding up, you should scoot back."
The young penguin scoffs at the old penguin hobo and sits down in the middle of the doorway, dangling his feet off the side.
Just then the train takes a sharp turn and the young penguin screams, plummeting off into the dark.
The wise old penguin shakes his head & mutters,“Huh. Kid should have brought a peanut butter & jelly sandwich!”
I.D. thats a joke. Parable. Koan. Metaphorical Allegory.
What’s MU?
[QUOTE=The Scales;47024]I.D. thats a joke. Parable. Koan. Metaphorical Allegory.
What’s MU?[/QUOTE]
“Master, what is a peanut butter & jelly sandwich?” “Wu!”
There’s this wonderful story about the first meeting between Kalu Rinpoche and Zen master Seung Sahn:
The two monks entered with swirling robes - maroon and yellow for the Tibetan, austere gray and black for the Korean - and were followed by retinues of younger monks and translators with shaven heads …
The Tibetan lama sat very still, fingering a wooden rosary (mala) with one hand while murmuring, ‘Om mani padme hung,’ continuously under his breath. The Zen master, who was already gaining renown for his method of hurling questions at his students until they were forced to admit their ignorance and then bellowing, ‘Keep that don’t know mind!’ at them, reached deep inside his robes and drew out an orange. ‘What is this?’ he demanded of the lama. 'What is this?'
This was a typical opening question, and we could feel him ready to pounce on whatever response he was given.
The Tibetan sat quietly fingering his mala and made no move to respond.
‘What is this?’ the Zen master insisted, holding the orange up to the Tibetan’s nose.
Kalu Rinpoche bent very slowly to the Tibetan monk next to him who was serving as the translator, and they whispered back and forth for several minutes.
Finally the translator addressed the room: ‘Rinpoche says, What is the matter with him? Don’t they have oranges where he comes from?’
