Acceptance of others

By abiding in nonviolence, one’s presence creates an atmosphere in which hostility ceases. Yoga Sutra of Patanjali II-35 as interpreted by Mukunda Stiles.

When I speak of [I]sattva[/I] here on the forum, I speak in reference of this sutra and how I take note of what is sattvic and what may be a trick of my own mind – it is in the instant creasing of hostility in all of those around. I have only experienced this spiritual phenomenon twice in a larger group of others, and a few more times in a smaller group with the same teacher. This teacher, with more than 3 decades of spiritual practice and with strong, bound lineages, has not yet stabilized himself into state of consistent sattva; in fact, these times of sattvic sattva are rare.

I understand that some others will see it this all very differently than me, also that some others will see it as I do. I feel the blessing of both.

Just adding my two bits.

I hope you don’t ban Q, because he brought up some valid points. He dared to criticise when others were silent. He’s not a troll.

I don’t have a sense of Q as person, not from what is shared here on the forums, so I have not spoke about him as an individual here. I have only spoken to what I consider aggressive and directly personal posts, not just by Q, though that has been assumed of me I see. Anyway, I see these types of things quite separately: behavior and choices, are NOT an individual person or their Yoga practice. The distinctions do not stop there though, not for me.

I also see threads on this forum where I wish that new-to-yoga students were offered replies in what I would hope to be a softer, more empowering style of reply. I have felt the sting from the words of other members here too – personally directed toward me, but also as disappointment by the style in which it seemed others were answered or spoken to. Sometimes it is provoking for me too, sometimes not. I chalk all of this up to me being in practice and the rest of folks here doing the same. Additionally, FlexP’s earlier post was spot on for me regarding this – the state of my own mind when reading. I liked his point of view and presentation on this very much.

David, you and the Q whom you have described, do not have a monopoly on anger, aggression, provocation, competitiveness, and the rest. :slight_smile: In fact, I was going to ask you for rent if you have been using these as often as you say you have :slight_smile: In fact, I haven’t read a single thread where any member, not a single member here, has ever spoken to anything other than the fact that they themselves are in practice with all of this. And if I’ve missed a post where a member has, it doesn’t matter so much because we all know that we ALL are…:smiley:

My feeling is that everyone who wants to be a member here should be allowed membership, to read and to contribute, but with contribution should come an additional request to stay in practice and that they sangha should support each other to stay in practice. Perfection, and the million opposing versions of that are not necessary, but we should all try to raise our own bars of behavior in practice and the spirit of sangha, even when we are riding high on our feelings of being “justified” and “righteousness”. Name calling, efforted attempts to belittle, and excluding members who have English as a their second language, are not enough effort in my opinion, or in my hope for the forum. Continuing on as you will when another has told you that your action and words are causing them pain is not enough for my hopes for the forum either.

Sure going at individual members can raise awareness and hopefully a “is there truth here?” moment of reflection, but it doesn’t support change in the behavior and or the environment here. From where I am standing, what much of this looks like to me is someone striking another 5x as hard as the original offense to teach them that striking others is wrong. A tool for change, yes, sometimes it can be, but it not the best tool for change IF that is really the desired goal here, which leaves me questioning if change is the actually desired goal of Q’s pointed post toward Willem, Pandara and Gordon, or if this is really an effort to extract of a pound of flesh. This is not clear to me. Is benefiting the environment here important to you Q?

Disagreement, and directness and even sharpness, are not tools that I am familiar with myself. My teacher uses this with his students and they are part of my own partnerships. Even anger is a tool for cutting through confusion and wrong seeing. My bottom-line hope is that we do better with what we are provoked with when we are here, out of support of practices and to benefit our practices.

please pardon the earlier typos – not that these stand alone. :smiley:

When I think of tolerance, I can see varying degrees. In north America we rely on tolerance in society in order to fulfil a quality of life. This does not exist in many other societies.

I have 3 kids all school aged. I have taught them non-tolerance in cases of bullies and they have intervined on those occasions.

Tolerance is a virtue doled out to differing ideas, beliefs, or behaviours. Gurus and Christians teach tolerance to a high degree. But, can you tolerate watching your neighbour abused? Or would you intervine?

[quote=Nichole;31595]My feeling is that everyone who wants to be a member here should be allowed membership, to read and to contribute, but with contribution should come an additional request to stay in practice and that they sangha should support each other to stay in practice. Perfection, and the million opposing versions of that are not necessary, but we should all try to raise our own bars of behavior in practice and the spirit of sangha, even when we are riding high on our feelings of being “justified” and “righteousness”. Name calling, efforted attempts to belittle, and excluding members who have English as a their second language, are not enough effort in my opinion, or in my hope for the forum. Continuing on as you will when another has told you that your action and words are causing them pain is not enough for my hopes for the forum either.

Sure going at individual members can raise awareness and hopefully a “is there truth here?” moment of reflection, but it doesn’t support change in the behavior and or the environment here. From where I am standing, what much of this looks like to me is someone striking another 5x as hard as the original offense to teach them that striking others is wrong. A tool for change, yes, sometimes it can be, but it not the best tool for change IF that is really the desired goal here, which leaves me questioning if change is the actually desired goal of Q’s pointed post toward Willem, Pandara and Gordon, or if this is really an effort to extract of a pound of flesh. This is not clear to me. Is benefiting the environment here important to you Q?
[/quote]
Let me see if I get what you’re saying correctly. If someone is abusive or disrespectful and it is requested that they stop but they don’t, you’d prefer that we ban them?

If I saw my neighbor being physically abused, I would call the police. A verbal argument would depend on many factors. I can see your point here and it’s an interesting one. Should an online yoga forum be different? I don’t know. I do know that when I ban a member who is an actual practitioner of yoga, it feels violent to me. It feels like me saying, “You’re not good enough.”

In other news, as I expected, our first member has decided to leave the forum because of Quetzalcoatl. This member didn’t take part in the conversation here, didn’t contact me privately about how they felt prior to leaving, they simply reacted and left. Any opinions on this?

Thank you for asking. :slight_smile: No, that is not correct. I have never said if “[I]someone”[/I] is abusive or the word [I]“ban.[/I]” I cannot think of what I could add to bring more understanding between us – my apologies for my part in this limitation.

I have added all that I needed to say for myself regarding my thoughts on how to handle these situations, as you invited and requested in your op. I have spoken for my own hopes for the forum in this thread, a thread which I find to be a somewhat hostile environment.

I have nothing more to add, nor do I have a request for others to do so.

Thank you for the opportunity and invitation to add my own thoughts and hopes to the discussion. However my posts, or those of others, were received or perceived or projected upon, I still find it vitally important to speak when you a personal calling to. I am grateful to the other members who have added to this thread too.

Your own,
Nichole

It’s tough figuring out what sort of policy to implement when we all have amazingly different beliefs, experiences, ways of communicating, etc. You have a Siva who in essence says, “Bring it on! I can handle myself.” That’s certainly fair. You have an InnerAthlete who would simply like to be treated with respect. In my opinion, he sure as heck deserves it. You have others who want nothing to do with someone who makes personal attacks. That’s definitely understandable. And you might have people like me who are aching to be as accepting as possible even if it pains them at times. How do you reconcile such different perspectives into a single forum policy? :confused: How can we be accepting and tolerant of both sides? It’s enough to make someone lose their sanity and I don’t know that I have much left to spare.

Therefore, does anyone have any thoughts on a policy such as this: [B]Respect how others wish to be treated.[/B]

If someone treats you in a way you don’t like, you request that they no longer do so either within the thread or via some private means. “X, I feel like you’re being disrespectful. Please treat me with respect.” “Y, I feel like you’re verbally attacking me, please be compassionate with your replies.”

You speak for yourself and your personal desires, not for anyone else. We are all coming from different places, so we can only speak for ourselves.

If the person does not comply with your wishes, you contact me (if I don’t see it) and, the first time they do it, they are temporarily banned for 3 days. If they do it again thereafter, they are permanently banned.

This puts the power of personal responsibility within everyone’s hands.

Thoughts?

I am not a fan of banning. In most cases, the community decides what is acceptable and what’s not. Someone being unpleasant is either ignored or challenged by the group. My experience is that this group tends to more accepting of others.

I hope this thread is not hijacked in discussing something other than acceptance of others. So far we have made several good points surrounding the issue.

[QUOTE=David;31615]

Therefore, does anyone have any thoughts on a policy such as this: [B]Respect how others wish to be treated.[/B]

If someone treats you in a way you don’t like, you request that they no longer do so either within the thread or via some private means. “X, I feel like you’re being disrespectful. Please treat me with respect.” “Y, I feel like you’re verbally attacking me, please be compassionate with your replies.”

You speak for yourself and your personal desires, not for anyone else. We are all coming from different places, so we can only speak for ourselves.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

I think this approach has some problems. What if the person making the complaint just doesn’t like to be criticized or challenged? The beauty of this type of forum is precisely that this person does [I]not[/I] get treated the way he/she wants to be treated. Also I would be wary of a complaint by just one person, but if a lot of people complain about the same individual, then that would indicate that there [I]might[/I] be a problem. Ultimately someone has to draw the line between what is acceptable or unacceptable behavior. Of course it’s helpful to have policies in place to use as guidelines, but each situation that arises has to be judged individually. In the final analysis, the decision rests with you, David.

You’re absolutely right in your analysis of potential problems Asuri. It certainly wouldn’t be a perfect system.[quote=Asuri;31618]I think this approach has some problems. What if the person making the complaint just doesn’t like to be criticized or challenged?[/quote]
Then that’s where they’re at and we should accept them as such? Some people just don’t like to be or aren’t ready to be criticized or challenged. Others prefer it be done in a compassionate rather than in your face type manner. Others prefer it be done by their trusted teacher rather than some stranger on the internet.

If I challenge someone in a manner they don’t like and they request that I don’t do that in the future, my hope is that I try to understand their perspective while sharing mine but, in the end, honor their request.

But yes, there are definitely at least 10 sides to this two sided coin :slight_smile:

never saw a two sided coin brother david, if you find one I will pay handsomly for it :slight_smile: Well I just made a joke at your expense, so you can PM me about it and if I dont reply appropriately in the future you can contact yourself about it. Just messing around brother

But seriously, This is a forum, its not like someone can come into your house and take all your belongings. In the path of Yoga, this is the perfect place to be challenged, if you cannot handle it here what happens when it becomes face to face?

Hahah, thanks for the chuckles :slight_smile:

I’m in complete agreement with you. At the same time, I feel compassion for those that can’t handle such challenges at present and want to accept them and their inability to handle such things. Yes, my preference would be that in time they become more grounded and centered, but there’s nothing I can do to help them with that other than create space for them to be as they are and change if/when they’re ready to change.

Buddhas quote about the market place is certainly applicable here. Maybe the modern version should be “online forum” rather than market place :smiley:

Hello David,

I re-engage this topic with reticence. I am certain you understand.
By no means do I need defending nor am I a “victim”. Neither is appropriate in the yoga context as far as I am concerned.

I have spent quite a bit of time here. Approaching 2,000 posts, of which I hope more than 50% are valid, helpful, mindful, discerning, and give both those lurking and those “out” something to consider, ponder, and integrate. It is very challenging to deal with the occasional member who perceives my contributions, in whole or in part, to be condescending, holier-than-thou, phony, mindless, or blatantly something other than what I live (integrity).

But there are many challenges and I’m not particularly discouraged by an occasional stone thrower. They are entitled to take it or leave it. They are entitled to like it or not like it. They are entitled to try it or avoid it. I simply give what I have and there are some takers and some others. I don’t judge them either way. It is up to them to captain their ship.

As this is a yoga forum and not a chaos forum or an anarchy forum or a passive-aggressive forum, I believe those interested in being here, really being here, do their work, no matter where on the path they may be AND that simple, basic, adult respect is a foundational requisite. It is the very subfloor upon which this sort of forum is constructed.

I believe there is a misunderstanding relative to the concept of “freedom” such that a segment of the population considers it to be the absence of any boundary, restraint, discipline, or parameters. What I have learned through Yoga is that it is only through discipline that we can be truly free. Yet we continue to examine and define freedom as an external function. So to me, this sort of forum, by its very nature as a Yoga Forum, needs to have some basics in place so that we may exchange ideas with respect for others and thus respect for ourselves.

[QUOTE=David;31615]
This puts the power of personal responsibility within everyone’s hands.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

I like the idea of asking people to take personal responsibility for letting someone know how they feel. The problem is that simply demanding respect does not necessarily make one worthy of respect. On the other hand, no one should be subjected to name-calling or abusive language. I think that criticism of another, even harsh criticism, is acceptable as long as it is not abusive and doesn’t stray too far from the context of the thread. But how do you draw the line between legitimate criticism and unsupported personal attacks or abuse? Some judgement is necessary.

We Americans value free speech a lot, and I think it’s important for a moderator not to censor ideas or emotions, but to insist on right behavior.

Hi David & all,

Some people just don’t like to be or aren’t ready to be criticized or challenged. Others prefer it be done in a compassionate rather than in your face type manner. Others prefer it be done by their trusted teacher rather than some stranger on the internet.
I think that people who express themselves publicly have to deal with criticism, because most expressions are and mostly any behaviour already is or at least can be perceived as criticism. So everybody who speaks and acts in public “risks” to criticise others and therefore cannot expect to stand above criticism.

The ever present demand of respect: If I make a statement about someone else, no matter if generally or personal or if I behave towards them in any way, I risk that they feel treated without respect or are being hurt. Then I cannot forbid them to express their feelings how they see fit, because I caused these. So if someone would react to my respectlesss or hurtful statements or behaviour even with profane name calling (“asshole” & alike) or in someone elses perception “disproportional”, I’d personally call that my own fault, at best an accident.

The usual way of adults to deal with such situations is to talk it over and clearify things. If I think I cannot deal with a person or don’t want to, I either have to accept their comments or leave.

Asking someone else to resolve a situation I am responsible for is an option for children or other minors. Asking a third party to remove a person from a public place whose possibly problematic behaviour I caused: Pathetic.

In my own case: Everybody had the opportunity to talk it over with me. I litterally begged for it. Noone did. I agree that I did not make that particularly easy for everyone in every case. It might not be grand of me that I have lost parts of my respect for some people, but since I still respect everybody in a basic way, for example as human beings, I’m not so sure about it. I am not supposed to respect everybody as a YogiNi just because they claim to be one. As well am I not supposed to respect anyone as of integrity, if I have well-founded reasons to think of them as hypocrites.

By the way: My name is all over the thread, so nobody even bother to say it’s not about me. I didn’t start this, so why don’t you at least as well discuss wether InnerAthlete or Willem have to be banned, why does it always say “Q this, Q that” but never “InnerAthlete this, Willem that”? Because they’ve written more helpful postings and are more valuable than me? Because they express their disrespect of me in smug speeches?

Yoga? My unenlightened ass! :stuck_out_tongue:

Q, you’re a pathetic hypocrite yourself but you’re too blinded by your own anger and sadness to see it. You’ve no doubt got serious issues that you’re projecting on others and frankly it’s absolutely disgusting to see.

Now please let go of that tone I spoke in above (I was actually laughing as I wrote that, there was no real hate or anger) and read the following in the polar opposite.

Yes, I could speak to you in the above manner, but what good is it going to do? I’m not your teacher, you barely know me, and the statistical probability that me talking to you in such a manner will make any sort of a positive difference is virtually nil.

Do you REALLY think that the way you’re talking to people here will make any sort of positive difference? Do you really think you’re getting anyone to take a step back and observe themselves? As such, there are one of two possibilities as I see it:

  1. You’re doing nothing but feeding your own anger and making others uncomfortable in the process.

And/Or

  1. You’re not interested in making a positive difference.

Which is it?

I PERSONALLY see a benefit in having someone such as yourself around and I’m in a place where I’m trying to extend love and acceptance to everyone. However, as Nichole alluded to, there isn’t a trusted, enlightened teacher present who is able to reassure the people that are being upset by you that there is a grand lesson in it. As such, I now realize that people are reacting emotionally to you and there is little to no benefit.

Therefore, I ask that you please respond to people in a respectful, compassionate tone. If that’s not a place that you can come from right now, I understand and accept that, but ask that you please don’t respond in that case. If you DO need to vent, you’re always more than welcome to contact me privately. Thanks Q :slight_smile:

P.S. I really do think you’re an awesome person.

““I’m not so sure about it. I am not supposed to respect everybody as a YogiNi just because they claim to be one. As well am I not supposed to respect anyone as of integrity, if I have well-founded reasons to think of them as hypocrites.””

Yep, because everyone here is claming to be the almighty enlightened Yogi, and because you truly and deeply know them and that is how you have your well-founded reasons to think of them as hypocrites. And on the subject of hypocrites, have you ever met someone not a hypocrite, at times all will be hypocritical, however does that mean they arent trying?

So instead of respecting them as a yogini, how about respecting them for the hypocritical people that they are, as you are, as I am?
I am hypocritical because I believe that compasion is a great trait to have, yet often times I do laugh at the interactions that you have made with others and that they argue back with you. while I sit and eat popcorn, munch munch.

Still, I think its all OK, no need to stress about the forum, its only a forum in the end, albeit one that can be helpful for people of similar paths
best to all
brother Neil

Yes, your [U]username[/U] is all over this thread, but this is unlikely your real name. And if you were named after Quetzalcoatl, there is still nothing here on this forum that connects you to who you really are in the world.

I sign my name to my posts and speak of my teacher here, of my family, of my personal sadhana and of my real-world work. Gordon uses his real name, Willem his, Pandara (Willie) links to himself through his profile, David his – many others who contribute here also use their given names and share from their own lives.

I support a members option to use an anonymous username, but I suspect it makes it easier to speak without feeling a deeper sense of responsibility to keeping the dignity of others or of one’s own.

Nichole

Dear David,

When I started posting on this Forum back in 2007, on two occassions I posted in threads where my replies were a bit emotionally loaded and biting. What was so nice for me about it was that my posts was put under quarantine, I was contacted by Nichole who explained to me why and who very kindly requested me to tone the bite and the emotional loading down in my posts. My initial reaction was also anger, but I took a few days, reflected and with hindsight (what a wonderful teacher) I could see Nichole’s point and decided to ask her to delete those posts as they were not in harmony with the energy of the Forum.

The members do not dictate who should or who should not be here, but the general energy of this Forum dictate that for me. The energy of this Forum has always been amicable, kind, compassionate with little space for emotional outbursts, anger, aggresive and abusive rantings. However, David, you cannot do this alone. You need help and I for one would like to implore you to consider moderators urgently. I have always felt that the moderators at least takes the sting out of the posts. They were the first line of protection and I surely miss that. I also post on other forums and I can tell you this kind of ranting that we have seen here the past week or so would not have lasted there. The point on those forums are you behave and respect and that is it. No debate!

Then, just a last word form my side on this. I live in a very violent, angry and aggresive society at present (South Africa is going through much difficulty in growing as a democracy). I have to deal with anger, aggression and violence on a daily basis. I have to deal currently with a beloved friend who has been violently attacked in her house and violated in the worst form, she is 67 so by the way. I have to deal with my sister who was robbed again of all her money at her business, thank God nobody was hurt. The last thing I want at the end of a day is to come to this Forum where I have to face and deal with another angry and hostile person and yes I will name him, Quetzalcoatl and also Sunyuting.

I am open for debate on what I say and I have done so in the past with members such as Gordon, Siva and others, if it occurs amicable and in a well behaved manner. I am also here to share the wonderful teachings of my own teacher, Sri Durga Devi, which was imparted to me with great love and compassion. As such I would like to leave with a thought of her: Sri Durga used to tells us that we live in a sea of each other’s thoughts and consciousness, therefore who we allow to share that with us was always of utmost importance to her as she strongly felt that our spiritual companions makes certain waves which others don’t. I am agreeing strongly with her.